Caught flatfooted

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These folks

http://www.dogbrothers.com/

do something interesting in the martial arts space. They get together and do a whole lot of sparring, typically with substantial contact and a minimum of protection. Apparently this is amazingly effective training, which is in line with what experts such as Dave Grossman (see his 'On Combat') tell us.

So I wonder.. what if regular folks such as ourselves were to get together in small groups in a totally unofficial and low-key manner and run through some force-on-force drills in the gun-centric self defense space? I don't know if simmunition use is as option for people willing to get the required protection and mods such as special barrels, but certainly paintball use is an option. Disarms against training guns/knives can certainly be attempted.

I expect the benefits of such training, however unofficial, would be incalculable compared to the relatively static and low-stress training we typically get. There's nothing like a bunch of experience squaring off against someone who is doing their best to "kill" you, within sane and pre-arranged limits of course, for when SHTF at some later point in life.
 
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This has been one of the most startling posts I've read. I never imagined a scenario of a thug getting the drop on me and being so close as to have a gun stuck in my ribs. Of course this is a good reminder of the importance of a constant Condition Yellow mental awareness.

It also got me to digging back through my John Farnam book "The Street Smart Gun Book". He has a section on just this type of situation. Although the book is addressed mainly to visibly armed police officers, I think his advice in this situation applies to private citizens as well.

Here are some of the main points, many of which confirm earlier postings in this thread (pp. 44 - 51):

* If someone is pointing a gun at you they may or may not shoot. If they shoot they may or may not hit you. If they hit you you have a pretty good chance of surviving ("gunshot wounds by handguns are seldom fatal"). In other words, you have a pretty decent chance of surviving if you act at the right time with enthusiasm.

* Factors affecting chance of being hit:
- range
- are you moving or not
- how close you are to cover

* On the other hand, execution style gunshots are usually fatal. Read that observation again. Hasty shots often miss and if they hit they are seldom fatal. Execution gunshots are usually fatal.

* If you are at some distance from the BG, then you have a good chance of moving quickly and either get out of effective range, pull your own firearm, or both. If you are more proficient in shooting accurately than the BG, then distance is your friend. Another angle on why its is good reason for frequent practice.

* The more you cooperate the more control he gains over you. The more control he gains the more likely his shot will be accurate and deadly.

* According to Farnam, statistics indicate that in the majority of cases, if you are taken captive you will be executed, unless you escape or are rescued.

* Talking is a viable option to at least try. It can buy you some time so you act on your own initiative, not his. Do not grovel or slobber. Talk calmly and resolutely so he sees this is not push over victim. He EXPECTS you to panic, so don't. If you can him to talk his reaction time will increase.

* Disarm him forcefully if he is within arms reach. You gain control of his weapon much faster than you can draw and shoot your own. At close range a shootout will likely get you both killed.

* I will try to describe his photo illustrated disarming technique (assuming both men are right-handed and facing each other, the gun to your chest or head, you can adjust otherwise). He says there are many techniques, this is just one:
- Rotate your body toward your left and use your right hand to push the weapon to the left side. So you would be gripping the handgun with your fingers over the top of it and your thumb underneath. You should rotate toward the weak side of the handgun, so that eventually you will be rotating it back over his strong side thumb.

- At the same time raise you left hand up to grip the handgun also with your fingers over the top (it should be pointed toward you, but just out of line with you by now).

- Continue to rotate your body to the left so that you are facing 3/4 away from him and he is forced to stretch to reach around you in order to keep ahold of his handgun.

- Using both your hands, force the handgun back over his thumb which will be pretty much to your original left side. This will likely loosen his grip.

- Follow up at this point with your right elbow to his ribs and/or right hand grasp or punch to his groin/jewels. This should give you control of his weapon and allow you to get some distance.

* If you are too far away to disarm them, then extend the rage. Most people unless well trained will not be able to hit a target well at more than 15 feet. If you are moving quickly away and horizontally to cover he is likely to miss. Once you are behind cover then draw and shoot him (you are better trained then him, right?).

* The most desperate situation is when he orders you to lie down or into a less mobile position. Even though you are at a big disadvantage, this is your last decent chance to act. Never comply with an order to compromise your mobility. At this point you need to accept that you are likely to be shot. Do whatever you can violently to move, distract, or otherwise reduce his accuracy and then draw and fire. Keep firing while you are conscious and until he is down.

Bottom line from Farnam is absolutely never let yourself get into a position of submission where you no longer have the ability to take action. He says if you have two guns then it may be OK to give up the most visible one in order to get him less on guard, then use the backup one when you decide to act.

Just don't wait too long to act. You must act first. If he starts shooting before you take action then you may be unconscious before you get a chance.

I agree with the other posters. Who knows how any of us would react. Without thinking this through we could easily have frozen and went along for the ride, too. Big thanks for the OP to share this frightening experience with us, his virtual buddies. Fair warning to us all now. The key point is that the OP was lucky, because the outcome was all in the hands of the violent criminal. In general practice it is best to either disarm, or extend the range and get to cover before drawing.

I guess you could generalize the proper response further and say that sooner or later you need to extend the range and get behind cover. The only difference is whether to try to disarm him first (yes if he is within arms reach).
 
On a total tangent here... in South Africa, the OP would have been in serious trouble with the police for negligently losing his firearm. Think heavy fines and being declared unfit to possess a firearm ever again.

You guys don't appreciate your RKBA enough. Not even those of you who appreciate your RKBA :)

Koos
 
I think some will argue that having a gun pointed and pressed up against your chest is much easier to deal with than someone standing 10ft from you. A skilled/trained person in hand two hand combat could take the gun from the bad guy before he could pull the trigger. At 10ft there isn't much you can do unless you can draw and hit the bad guy hit the gun in the central nervous system or in the head before he can pull the trigger (typically CCW doesn't make this easy).
 
I might suggest he carry two guns in the future. One on the hip and one in the pocket. And when he's walking to and from his car/truck/etc, to keep his hands in his pockets. Nothing looks unnatural about putting ones hands in their pockets, I personally do it all the time. Sometimes, I have my hand wrapped around the butt of a pistol or the grip of a knife, often times, in fact. When entering/exiting a building you can have your hand ON the gun...

Otherwise, I'd say good job on not getting shot. Sometimes, compliance is the best option.

-Rob
 
Surgeon friend of mine decided to go get some Taco Bell at the drive thru one night (after operating all day). While sitting in his car waiting for food, perp sneaks up, sticks gun to his head and demands money. Unfortunately, friend's gun was not within reach (either in glove box or under seat, I forget). My friend handed over his wallet.
The whole point of this is to illustrate that a gun does no good if you can't get to it or get to it without easily being noticed. When perps ask for your wallet, they expect you to start digging around in your back pocket to get it. THAT'S where your gun should be! You're not going to be able to dig around in your front waistband or up in your armpit(shoulder holster). THIS is why a .32 in the hand is better than something bigger that you can't get to!! Consider this or consider carrying a dummy wallet, as mentioned before, with $20-$25 and old or dummy credit cards with non-functional #'s, etc.
Faking a seizure or looking off in the distance and acting like you were talking to someone behind him (to make him think someone else was there, distract him while you get your gun) might also be another option.
 
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