Caught flatfooted

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Scary! I would have flipped out (in a terrified hysterical way)...

As I read I couldn't help but think... what if the robber had murdered him (thank the Lord he is OK), and he had never tried to draw. Very tough situation, and difficult decision to make. He made the right one, but who knows what a crazy guy with a gun pointed at him was going to do.
 
Scary sitch.

However, I'm glad he didn't have a key and another gun in the truck, and went looking for the guy.

CC isn't a license to play cop. And given the SOM, it's not outside the realm of possibility that something bad would happen in retaliation.
 
If a guy is only 3ft to contact distance from you...the answer is not a gun!!!!:banghead: Everybody keeps talking abouts guns and concealment and draw times. Projectile weapons are good for injuring people at a distance...preferably in a manner where they can't injure you back. If there is no distance, then a projectile weapon is a poor tool (edged or impact would be better). The BG made a big mistake in starting out only 3 ft away, then closing to contact range relying only on his victims fear of his gun. If he was 10ft away...choices are slim no matter what you know.

Nobody has had the training and/or made the decision to just take this punk out yet, that's why he gets away with it. I'm not saying it is easy to face a loaded gun and take out the BG, but it isn't by any means hard either, or a low percentage move. With professional training, it is a very, very high percentage. Much better than relying on the BG's goodwill in choosing not to execute you.

I realize most people don't have this training. However, this is S&T forum, and I bet most members have thousands of $ in guns and gun gear. Members always talk about dropping big change on schools like Thunder Ranch. Why not spend a portion of that to get professional H2H training where firearms disarmament is a strong component so you don't have to be at the mercy of some 20yo punk?

If you are gonna go to your gun, you need a way to negate his ability to shoot you while you are doing it...or if not, at best you get a "tie". (Both shoot each other) There are a few folks who teach extreme close quarter shooting "southnarc" is one of them.
 
I have to agree with Strambo on this one. Taking a weapon from someone at close range is a high percentage win....when properly trained. However, training never involves the risk of real injury, here in lies the problem. I've taken some of this training and still not sure I'd use it.

You are much more likely to avoid injury when the bloke holds said weapon hard into your face, back, chest than when he is only 3 feet away. His reaction time will lag and this is why going for the weapon puts the victim at the advantage, the BG will not have time to respond. This technique, combined with a moving of his mask might just buy you the time needed to draw and fire. It also might get you lucky enough to be shot. If you ever do have to do this, the technique is to hit the inside of their hand at the wrist with your knuckles or your hand turned to karate chop, while sweeping the other hand across the outer portion of the hand. This is obviously done with great fervor.

You are disarming them with this technique (in theory) and also putting some hurt down on their hand to make it harder for them to regain control of their weapon. Ideally, they lose all control of the weapon and it goes flying away from both of you. Or, if well practiced, you can actually take the weapon in this fashion. Either way, sounds tricky when said BG has the finger on the trigger. This would be a good one to practice with an Airsoft and safety glasses on to see how effective it is. Go easy on your sparring partner, this can hurt quite badly even when just roleplaying.

It's always a tricky read and staying alive is always the option you want. Can't say I would have done anything different. But my CCW is at 4:00 right by my wallet and I make a point to wear long shirts. Reaching for it instead of my wallet would likely go unnoticed, maybe not. One of those, you'd have to be there things. But I have thought of this same scenario for the wallet reach and choose to always carry in this position for this reason. I can draw my gun just as easy as I can pull out my wallet.

I guess you could have told the punk, I have some more money in my front pocket that I have not put in my wallet yet from buying a snack at 7-11, then pull out the pocket gun.

Hard to say, was not there. Turning your back would feel pretty ominous though waiting for that hot slug in the back.

I feel your pain with this scenario and am particularly glad you are around to experience it only in your head and not from some hospital bed seriously injured. Or the other uglier outcomes where your family is mourning your death.
 
Taking a weapon from someone at close range is a high percentage win....when properly trained. However, training never involves the risk of real injury, here in lies the problem. I've taken some of this training and still not sure I'd use it.
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The main point isn't whether you would, or wouldn't choose to use it in a given situation...the point is you have a choice. Options are good, without this training your option is A. do what he says and hope he chooses not to execute you or B. see option "A".

With training you can choose to take him out immediately, or choose to comply unless/until you think he is gonna shoot you anyway, then take him out.

I've noticed when I read about these situations where people aren't trained in disarmament, they always seem to feel angry and bad that they were helpless. I've also heard of trained people in these situations where they complied because they felt it was best. They feel fine, not mad, helpless or traumatized because they actually chose compliance while still reserving the ability to take the guy out if they needed to. All second or 3rd hand info though, so make of it what you will.

I've never been in a hold up situation though...but in a similar way;
Where I am now, the threat of VBIED's (suicide car bombs) stresses me out the most. This is because there isn't much I can do about it. OTOH, I almost relish the thought of some insurgents shooting at me....I've trained for that for over 17 years and feel well equipped to handle it despite the danger.
 
Man I would hate to be put in that position. I would feel violated, of course - who wouldn't? I would console myself that whatever was gone - $400 and a $300 gun, so let's say $700... I'd console myself by imagining an alternate universe in which I was shot and bleeding on the ground, and my hereNow self standing over the thereThen self saying "For $700, I can make it so this never happened..." and I think I'd gladly pay to make it so.

But the part about having a gun in your back and being marched around back of the building... brrr that just gives me the willies. They say never get taken to a secondary location, you'll end up dead, and that would be my thought... he wants the bloody corpse out of sight for as long as possible. At that point I would have resisted, and probably gotten shot. But I won't be taken to a secondary location, period.
 
Strambo is right about close quarters training. If you don't have it, get it. I'd much rather have a gun pointed at me within 3 feet instead of 10 feet away.
Flatiron just learned that it only takes afew seconds of not paying attention to get in a bad situation. Not saying I would have been in condition orange since I am sure he had other things on his mind like most of us. He was in a semi-familiar setting, broad daylight, good part of town, etc. so I can see how he could let his guard down for a minute.
I also agree with Bruss in that I will never get taken to a secondary location. Flatiron was lucky. Most people aren't and while I may be a mugging victim one day, I will not be a murder victim without fighting back.
I have a good friend of mine who is the Asst State Attorney in homicide down here was stopped at a light at night with his wife in the car. He had the top down enjoying a nice Florida night. He was in a bad part of town since at the time you had to drive through this part of town to get to the downtown area. A kid appears out of nowhere pointing a gun inside his car trying to rob him. Problem was, the kid got within that 3 feet, my friend grabbed the punk's gun while reaching for his own. The kid got a .357 round to the head and was DRT. Moral of the story is to be prepared for anything and act quickly and with great passion when given the chance.
 
I may be alone here, but I don't think he did the right thing. He did the wrong thing but by sheer luck the person in control did not execute him. At that point, the evaluation of what he did as "the right thing" to "the wrong thing" depends solely on the whims of the bad guy.

Yes, he let himself get snuck up on. I don't like places like that, and they have always automatically made me feel uneasy. Any storage facility just reeks of being alone with lots of places to hide. That's not the case for many people. I'm sure there's places where I could be caught unawares. Yes, we need to work on our situational awareness all the time. But there are times when we will be caught not paying attention, and this was one of those times.

So we need to train for something like this. Capitulation isn't the answer, and he didn't do the right thing. He put his life in the hands of someone who may or may not have been planning to kill him. Maybe he could have and maybe he couldn't have pushed the gun away. I'd personally rather take that chance than take the chance that he's going to execute me anyway.

So what are the options? Some have mentioned a fake wallet, fumbling and dropping something, offering the idea of cash or a gun in the glovebox as distractions. Others suggest hand to hand training for disarmament, using knives, or a quick draw. Personally, I would go for the distraction and if that didn't work I'd go for the push-the-gun-away-and-draw. I'd rather go down fighting than take the chance of an execution after I gave up.

Where can you get training on disarming a close-in gun-wielding foe?
 
Oooooo, this makes me mad!:fire:

That's just about the most frustrating thing ever.
I agree with Naked, but it's everything's different when it's actually happening. I will be doing drills with my buddy because of this...

Just out of curiousity, what do you think would happen if you screamed like a girl "Eeeeiiiiiiiiii" and ran away arms-a-wavin like a crazy person? Would he just start shooting or would he stand there in disbelief as you ran away. I have never seen that in a movie...:D Seriously though...
 
On second thought, I would try the "scream like a girl and run away technique"

I just can't see a BG planning for that... He's planning on you being so scared that you comply with his ever order, he's not planning on you screaming and running away!!! If he shoots you have a running chance, if he doesn't you have a chance to take cover, draw your weapon and call the cops...

Sounds silly, but I think it could work...
 
When I was in security, we were told that we were issued arms for our own protection. Never happened. Any time a BG has the drop on you, you're basically screwed. The only time your weapon is really any good is when there are multiple targets and the BG can only pick one. Or if you are protecting a third party from robbery, rape, or other violence.
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I agree totally
 
I have to tell you, reading this story made me sick to my stomach. Not because of the whole "what was done wrong" feeling, but just imagining the helpless feeling that this person must have felt. I can put myself in that position, and I can imagine how horrifying it must have been.

And it serves as a real hard wake up call too...

I have gone over all sorts of scenarios in my mind, trained for numerous scenarios, but very rarely have I worked through a scenario where the bad guy so completely gets the drop on me.

It's not a fun scenario to work through.

Thankfully he didn't lose his life.
 
Tactics.

First of all, congrats for coming through alive, whether by pluck, luck, God's grace, ignorant bliss or tactical competence. Any one of us could find himself in exactly the same situation.

Go hand to hand with a 20 year old and if he beats you to the pistol...or your own gun, he's going to kill you for sure, though it still could work. Seems like once it's on, there isn't going to be a stopping place until someone is done. He might freak out and run, but he also might have a friend next time.

I'm interested in the freak-out tactic. Scream and run. Throw up on his shoes. Blubber. Cry. Beg. Spill change. Fall backwards over a couch. Do anything to get him to roll his eyes and shake his head ONCE at this pathetic, cringing, crying, hysterical idiot while you are scrabbling to cover...

My biggest fear is that he would shoot you if he found YOUR gun. I'm sure that his friends are telling him he should have after the fact just like we are discussing this scenario here.

Congrats on getting free without being injured. The stuff is replaceable. You aren't.
 
I do not agree with the freak and run, throw up "tactic". I have been in a couple scenarios where I should be dead and I truly believe the reason I am alive is that I did not act weak.
Once I was cornered by a large group of gang bangers (S avenue gang for those in South Florida) when I was serving a simple subpoena for an elderly lady. I'll never forget that day. A beautiful sunny South Florida Saturday. I had no back up for this as it was supposed to be a quick in and out. It didn't turn out that way. I found myself basicly surrounded by a group of bangers with AKs, sawed offs, glocks etc. and sucking on pacifiers (maybe some of you LEO remember those days). They started in with their scare tactics and telling me what was going to happen to me and so on. I did draw my weapon and trained it on the group that was closest standing to eachother. (I did have my vest on but who knows if that would have stopped the AK rounds or just kill me from the trauma of a 12 gauge. In not so many words and per my training, I did tell them that I was not there for them however, I know who my maker is and I am not scared to die and there's gonna be a fight first. That was a very tense few minutes there and thankfully they realized I was not there for them and it just wasn't worth it. That was just one of the circumstances I found myself in before I realized the couple pennies I made wasn't worth it.
Gangs and punks thrive on victims' fears. The majority of them do not want to be in a shoot out. They are human or at least have human instincts for self preservation and they do not want to die just like you don't.
You show fear and they pounce at it. You show you are not a victim and will fight back and usually they just haul ass. At least that's my opinion. YMMV.
 
Where can you get training on disarming a close-in gun-wielding foe?
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Here ya go...
http://www.targetfocusweapons.com/headblue.html

https://www.directactioncorporation.com/SCARS/products/video_dvd_pact.jsp

http://www.trsdirect.com/product.php?sku=AG-77 * If you get this...there's a principle you need to add to your training. ALWAYS move into/towards your attacker when disarming through the technique. This will not give him a chance to pull back/recover. Do not just do the disarm after a half step then stand still.


http://www.shivworks.com/products.asp

I realize some of these packages cost the same as a new pistol (that won't do you any good in the situation intiating this thread.) Can get in person training from all but the TRS guy (Taylor) fairly easy...TFT, SCARS and "southnarc" have regular training schedules.
 
Types of Storage Facilities

It may be worth considering the safety of a self-storage facility when storing your stuff. I don't know exactly how the environment affected the situation, but the storage facilities near my home are fenced, gated, and usually have cameras on every corner of every building. Always helpful to have someone else watching your back in addition to your own eyes.
 
I have a friend who has his conceal and carry, he keeps his taurus .357 facing frontwards in his coat pocket, he says that if anybody were to hold him up at gun point he would be able to reach in his pocket while "getting his money," fire a shot through the coat at the robber. I dont know how this would work if he missed or if the hammer got caught, but if done right, it sounds like it could be a good idea.
 
Strambo,

I'm curious why you chose the programs you did. Do you have personal experience with any of them or personally know any of the teachers?
 
If someone is holding a gun on me, I can safely make one of two conclusions:

1) They're bluffing, and don't actually intend to use it for anything other than a threat
2) They intend to use it and kill me with it once it's all done

Either way, it's not in your interest to do nothing. The end result with freezing is that a person ends up either dead, injured, crippled (can't forget the 'less than binary' potentials!), or emotionally/psychologically victimized. There is no positive ending for you if you just give in.

So, provided a person doesn't freeze up instantly when a gun is pointed at them, chances are they're not going to shot. In other words, acting as if you don't even notice the gun, or freaking out and moving either agressively or defensively, will be to your greatest advantage. If you're within 10 feet of the guy, your response can likely be fast enough before he fully realizes what's happening, provided you're on your feet; chances are he's got a pre-conceived notion of how the robbery is going to go down, nad if you don't behave according to that notion, it'll take a while to adjust to it.

Even if you momentarily freeze, you could say, "holy cow John, you scared the bejeezus out of me! that's quite the joke!" meanwhile you're holding your gut as if you're recovering from being startled, maybe you're walking towards your car and 'fishing for your keys' (and when your gun hand is concealed slowly turn and pop one or two in his side) or bending backwards as if you pulled your back (to grab your CCW). Something, anything - just don't play it straight.

The basic point I'm trying to make is that the agressor is expecting a victim. Complying, or intending to comply and pulling a fast one on him is exactly what would likely be expected for a victim to do. Don't act like a victim, act (and think!) like an agressor yourself!

This is part of the reason why I keep my CCW in a location where, if I were to need to take out my wallet, the pistol could easily be drawn with the other hand without it being noticed. Slight of hand...
 
There were hopeful signs that this was a simple mugging; ski mask, day light, etc. But it could have just as easily have been a rape or abduction. He made the right call.
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No, he didn't make the right call. He made the wrong call, and despite his choice, he got LUCKY. Like you said, it could've been a rape, abduction, or even a thrill killing. The ski mask was not necessarily to protect him from being seen by the victim - could there have been cameras in the area he wanted to avoid being seen by, maybe? Or could he have thought so? Cameras are much more dangerous to an attacker who is worried about being identified than eye witnesses or even someone at or near the scene who sees which way he flees the scene.

Point being, there was NO way to know what would happen, and the sooner you can act agressively in turn, the better your chances of survival are. I had thought this was common knowledge; I know that it is taught to women in self-defense classes, at least, and I know it doesn't apply just to rape. The longer the interaction goes on, the more likely the attacker is likely to freak out and either accidentially (nervous/anxious twitch) or intentionally shoot you, and the more likely they are to be able to assess your intentions.

Act fast or die. As soon as you sense a hostile intent, be ready; as soon as you see hostile action, act or prepare to act (which ever is the most tactically sound).
 
sfc123, I have personal experience and have met and trained with (briefly, 3 days) the head instructors of SCARS and the TFT founder.

I have the video package from Bob Taylor. (Just apply the principle of moving in thoughout the technique...he does not do this. Curiously, he shows how pulling back can keep you from being disarmed...but does not realize if the other guy keeps moving in, your pulling back won't matter.)

I have not trained with Southnarc...just been following his stuff. Katrina killed the class I was scheduled for with him and now I'm deployed.

I currently think TFT is the best of what I've seen primarily because they are 1) principle, not technique based and 2) focus on injuring the attacker as the primary goal. Injure him until he is non-functional, then he cannot hurt you. They keep evolving their training methodologies (the underlying principles stay the same) so that with each new course or product, the students learn faster than those before. I wish I would have started out training the way they do now.

SCARS is principle based as well. The information is just a little harder to understand (not much though). I do not have the TFT package I linked to though, so I can't comment on it specifically. I do have the SCARS package I linked to, and I know it will answer all your firearm disarming needs and then some. All these companies have unconditional money back guarantees (actually, I don't know about S-narc), so if you think the material sucks, just send it back and tell them why.

I have, and continue to look into, other things just to stay current with what is out there, professional development etc.
 
Every person does what they do , who can say what was right for any moment ? There really is no wrong answer this man dis what he felt was right - for the situation .

BUT

Statistically, if the bad guy tries to change the location of the scene : he intends to kill you.

I resolved to fight if ever in this situation. However , I came to the shooting sports as an outgrowth & expansion of martial art practice : Starting with H2H and progressing to modern weaponry as I got older.


I carry a pistol at 4o'clock and have a viable fixed blade fighting knife , handle up , in my right rear pocket , pretty much always. if someone tells me to reach into my back pocket and produce my wallet , I will produce and apply a weapon instead.
 
Strambo

For someone who doesn't have any H2H training do you believe they can really learn the skills via DVD?
 
I personally don't think this guy sounds like he was in condition white. He came out and the bad guy was right there there wasn't much he could have done except peeked around the corneer slowly. How many people here will look out the windows of your house before you walk out to your car, or peek around corners? You can't liveyour whole life afraid.
 
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