Caught flatfooted

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Ugghh....this incident makes me ill...

What can a person do? First, I carry my snub in my coat pocket, no holster, nothing...if im not wearing a coat, I'm almost always wearing a hoodie. Instantly reachable in an emergency, and the move to get it looks harmless.

The point brought up about the dummy wallet is interesting...I may well have to start doing that as well...

HOWEVER, one thing to remember....an overzealous local prosecuter may look dimly on your dummy wallet. Same goes for throwing the wallet at his feet and then drawing and shooting.

Many years ago, my fathers best friend was robbed like this, and he threw the wallet at the perps feet, drew his concealed handgun, and shot the man directly in the top of the head while he was bending over, killing him. He spent a long time in jail (like 4 months) while they debated charging him with murder. Is it worth it? It was made worse by the fact that the dead robber had no prior criminal record.....ughhh........
 
Well it's easy to mentally work yourself into a corner and then you are paralized by what may come next. All you can ever do is judge the situation you are in and hope you come out with the optimal solution.

It was made worse by the fact that the dead robber had no proir criminal record
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Of course that doesn't mean he wasn't a long time criminal, just that he hadn't ever been caught.
 
While they may be punks some are not complete idiots. I have been in two situations similar to this. I did not have a weapon though.

You never know how you will react. I always thought I would be scared out of my mind but when it happened the first time I was quite calm and just irritated. After it happened I was pretty worked up and upset for letting it happen though. Three "robbers" and one with the gun right in my face. The guy with the gun held us at bay while the other two searched and went through my vehicle. Even if I had a weapon I wouldn't of been able to draw and fire without first being shot. I considered taking the weapon as it was within reach but then I would of certainly received a beating and shot afterwards.

Practicing a quick draw and firing three rounds center mass in under two seconds will save your life if you can successfully knock the attacker off balance or knock his weapon out of his hand. And having a firearm that you can do this with goes without saying. Pull a pocket gun that jams or that you can't disengage the safety in a fluid movement will lead to you being shot.
 
I just made up my mind

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

to carry a "Dummy" wallet. Coupla' bucks of chump change, expired drivers license and credit cards in an old tattered wallet. Gonna keep my LTC in the real wallet with the rest of my ID's.
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The dummy wallet is a good idea, carrying something with your address on it isn't.
 
Short answer, yes you can learn viable H2H skills via video, though live training is always best. You need to watch it through at least 3 times to absorb all the information, then get a motivated training partner and train it. Takes more dedication...no one to spoon feed you answers...but the answers should be in the product and you just missed it.

For a longer/better answer: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=229443&highlight=hand+dvd -thread I started on how to get the most out of distance learning. Most of my training has been self-administered both with firearms and H2H. Whenever I go to live training...my skills have always been above average...

If you get a TFT or SCARS product (or any product I said I have experience with), feel free (any THR member) to PM me with any questions and I will do my best to help you out. I don't work for/represent either company, but want to help folks survive violent situations any way I can.
 
answerguy said:
The dummy wallet is a good idea, carrying something with your address on it isn't.
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I did up my throwdown wallet without ID and I used the cardboard "credit" cards that come in the junk mail.

Hey, who'da thought junk mail would be good for something ?
 
While in transition to my current residence I was staying in a hotel in Reno. About 7am I went outside and was digging in my truck. My large unfriendly Lab was in the backseat. I was oblivious to my surroundings and had all my attention on my search. My dog lurches up and starts growling and snapping towards me. Surprised, I turn around and there is a guy right behind me. Never even saw him coming. As I turn around he pulls his hands out of his pockets and asks for some money for the bus. He was on something and the presence of my dog threw him off. I told him to move away because he was bothering my dog. That's when my Dad came out of the room and got behind the guy.

I never knew the guys intentions, but he had me cold. If my dog had been in the back, in the camper shell, it could have ended differently. After that I learned a valuable lesson.
 
What others have said is so true regarding the 2-3ft area around you. If a firearm intrudes into that space, the advantage switches to the victim if the victim understands this and the necessary tactics to gain the advantage.

My favorite technique I remember from the Sherriffs Dept. training back when I thought I wanted to be in law enforcement was to grab the firearm and the hand holding it with both of your hands and in one fluid motion, twisting the hand 90' towards the perp's centerline (so gun is laying on its side) while pushing the muzzle up at the perps face and apply pressure as you bring the gun down towards your own knees.

There are only 2 results: the perp recieves a broken trigger finger or he drops immediately to his knees while trying desperately to get his finger out of the trigger guard...which he usually can't.

The only catch is this requires lots of practice to do smoothly and quickly. And being as I was the chosen guinnea pig for our class demonstration, I could'nt drop to the floor fast enough and can attest to it's effectiveness.

There is a .5-1 second delay between action/reaction...use that time to your advantage if you can.YMMY, just my .02c from past training. I have never had to try this in the real world.

PB
 
My favorite technique I remember from the Sherriffs Dept. training back when I thought I wanted to be in law enforcement was to grab the firearm and the hand holding it with both of your hands and in one fluid motion, twisting the hand 90' towards the perp's centerline (so gun is laying on its side) while pushing the muzzle up at the perps face and apply pressure as you bring the gun down towards your own knees.

There are only 2 results: the perp recieves a broken trigger finger or he drops immediately to his knees while trying desperately to get his finger out of the trigger guard...which he usually can't.

The only catch is this requires lots of practice to do smoothly and quickly. And being as I was the chosen guinnea pig for our class demonstration, I could'nt drop to the floor fast enough and can attest to it's effectiveness.
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Wasn't defensive tactics fun? As i read this, I am extremely thankful for the countless hour we spent in the the gym. Train like you fight, fight like you train.
 
I have a very good friend who's 17 year old cousin was just shot and barely lived.

The kid was in a nice area of Long Island in NY, and the perp walked up and told the kid to hand over his wallet. The kid replied "F*ck you." At which point the perp shot him and ran off without the wallet.
The cops think it was a gang innitiation thing, and he would have been shot anyway.

It's not like the movies. Sometimes, the lousy bad guy beats a heroic, or well-prepared good guy.
 
Glad I spent a week this winter doing take aways and CQB with Louis Awerbuck and the sherrifs dept. Actually if the gun is shoved into your kidney and making contact you it is doable-gotta have that contact from behind however:cool: Also if the guy was less than three feet and you act like a scared rabbit as you close to a foot or so and use both hands to disarm him with the above mentioned technique, you are gonna screw HIS pooch!:evil:
I'm 61 and I am gonna go for it, what the heck!:neener:
 
Glad I spent a week this winter doing take aways and CQB with Louis Awerbuck and the sherrifs dept. Actually if the gun is shoved into your kidney and making contact you it is doable-gotta have that contact from behind however Also if the guy was less than three feet and you act like a scared rabbit as you close to a foot or so and use both hands to disarm him with the above mentioned technique, you are gonna screw HIS pooch!
I'm 61 and I am gonna go for it, what the heck!
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Then give him his gun back one bullet at a time.:evil:
 
As I add it up..

I have read the account and the replies and take no issue with the opinions expressed. Those who chose to devote hours to "what if" , great, to those who don't , welcome to my world. Tell me I'm wrong in this and we can debate, does the pile of $$ for the story include a truck and power tools, beside the $700 taken? Unless the truck is a real crapper and the tools abused badly, the perp made off with less than 1/10 of the loot available. This is another indicator of the nature of the crime and criminal and also another positive reinforcement for our hero, who ended up, surviving a hairy life threatening interaction with aforementioned wrong thinker while keeping his truck and tools.
Did I miss anything???
 
Did I miss anything???
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You missed the part where the perp got his gun, and had him completely helpless. You missed the part where his life depended solely on the goodwill of someone who makes a living by robbing people.

Yes, it turned out okay, but through no fault of his own. He allowed the situation to get to a point where he had absolutely no say about whether he lived or died. The money is completely irrelevant.

I wasn't in the situation. Maybe I would have been frozen with fear. Maybe I would have gotten shot trying to disarm the perp or draw my own gun. All I have is hindsight. I hope that by reading about this scenario, we can:

1) be more aware of dangerous locations
2) be more aware of our surroundings and not be surprised
3) have and practice a plan for similar situations

We don't have control over the criminal's mind or actions. We should do everything in our power to keep the situation from getting to the point that we are at the mercy of a criminal. Anybody can let their guard down, and be surprised. Any of us could find ourselves in that situation. I, sitting here in my comfortable chair, hope that I would have reacted differently.
 
Since I have read this thread, I now:

1) Carry my knife in my wallet pocket

2) Have somewhat of a plan if someone gets the jump on me.

What do you guys think of this:

Same situation, my hands are up, he says give me your wallet. I lower one hand to go for my wallet, telling him to calm down or be cool, and mid-sentence use my left hand which was still raised pushing the gun away (assuming he was right handed) outside the center while stabbing with the knife now in my hand from the wallet-pocket, horizontally inbetween the ribs or neck disabling the attacker.

I figure if I can open the knife fast enough, and go for the wrist of the gunhand instead of the arm to prevent him/her from bending the wrist inwards, that could work?

Unfortunately I can neither afford the money nor the time to go to anything more than a single-day training class.
 
Don't put your hands up for anybody but a cop. Put them either on your piece or on the perps gun if close enough. He will have the disadvantage of reacting to your purposeful movement with the least amount of movement distance on your part. The sooner you can get the ball rolling the better! In other words you should be acting the first instant you see a threat to increase your chances of a successful outcome. Your actions as Col. Cooper taught must be explosive with no telegraphing intent in advance. You time it best when the perp is talking or moving. Act like a scared rabbit that doesn't understand his commands as you move on angles to cover or close the gap- where a gun becomes less effective. Decide in advance to win! If you take a hit gain control anyway and destroy the enemy anyway possible-never give up or submit. If a person threatens you with a weapon value of property is NOT the issue- you must win at any cost!:cool:
 
Being helpless is the worst feeling in the world. I was mugged in the subway a few years ago. BG said he was going to kill me if i didn't give him everything I had. I gave him 20 bucks and he ran away. I was 15 and scared, so I did what he told me. Thats why I started researching self defense laws and gun laws. Never a victim again.
 
That sucks to hear. But I wasn't going to add anything here. But while reading other threads I thought of something. Maybe a pocket knife could have changed the situation.

I know this is a What if so no need to argue it.
What if he had a pocket knife in his pocket? When he went to rich for keys and wallet. Grab it instead and stab BG in hand or arm with gun. That would have definetly incapicated the BG shooting hand.
 
OK guys, how is a pocket knife you can't get to any better than the GUN the guy had that he couldn't get to?

This is not a question of what is the best magic tool to carry and how to employ said tool. It is about how to break down the other guy's body so he cannot function. At 3ft, a person could break the guy's arm and crush his throat in the time it would take to pull out a knife (or gun, whatever). If I move...I want the result of that move to be injury, trauma, destruction. Not; I move to get a tool to then hope the tool gives me the trauma I need.

Watch some prison knife footage...people do not get incapacitated quickly...granted, prisoners have poor targeting, but knives do not lead to rapid incapacitation (quick enough he can't dump the whole magazine in you) unless you get the brain or spine.

If you have enough training to employ a knife or gun at extreme close quarters effectively...then you should have enough training not to need it at that distance. Simply getting out a gun or knife does not solve the problem.

Note: I have been carrying concealed for over 10 years, I always have a knife too. I'm not shunning tools and their utility based on some misguided "my hands are deadly so I don't need them" type notion. A knife or gun just isn't always the best (read most efficient) option. Anything could work...intent to cause harm executed with violence of action can make up for lots of less efficient methods. Whatever you do, once it starts...don't stop until they are in a non-functional heap on the ground.
 
Like I said I'm not going to argue over it because it's a what if. But with the logic that you will always be able to overpower someone is not true. In theory it works. But in theory we should all be practicing magic and slight of hand. Because here in Orlando a few months back I think it was David Copperfield got held up at gun point. He pulled out his pockets and showed the crook he had nothing so the guy took off. In reality he had a wallet, cell phone, etc in his pockets. He just used his magic skills to hide it all.
 
Yes, it is a "what if" but that's how we learn and plan for scenarios that are likely. If you've already thought out the scenario (that has actually happened in real life) then you should have a better chance of surviving when the real thing happens.

In this case, we're thinking and discussing what to do if someone gets the drop on us, and has us at gunpoint at less than arms length.
 
"In this case, we're thinking and discussing what to do if someone gets the drop on us, and has us at gunpoint at less than arms length."

Only a few things can save you in that case. 1. The crooks conciense and heart. 2. God. 3. Lots of training.

Less than arms length means with the right training you can dissarm him. But as proven in the story giving up the money turned out to be a better idea. Because he lived. I'd say in the story 1 & 2 prevailed. If it happened to me I'd certainly hope all 3 things happened.
 
I can put my knife on someone at 3' a lot faster than I can my gun but I don't want to bring a knife to a gun fight.

If someone gets the jump on you all you can do is comply and wait for them to leave or an opportunity to fight or flight. When criminals start herding people around that's really a dangerous situation. I would seriously consider being shot trying to resist than be herded into a back room.

The OP did a great job, he didn't wussy out or panic.
 
But as proven in the story giving up the money turned out to be a better idea. Because he lived.
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But if he had made the same choice, and the bad guy decided to kill him, would you still say he made the right choice?

The only difference between the outcomes of living and dying are the decision of the bad guy. You can't say "he made the right choice" when his choice put him in the situation that whether he lived or died was decided by the bad guy. Your determination of "the right choice" versus "the wrong choice" would hinge solely on the other persons decision and not what the victim's choice was. Therefore, it's not the victim's choice that you are evaluating, simply the outcome. I maintain that he did not make the right choice. He just got lucky.

That said, I don't claim that I would do any better in his situation, but because of his experience, I can plan and train for the eventuality, and hopefully learn from his (lucky) mistake.
 
i thought i was the only one to carry a dummy wallet.

since my friend (pizza delivery) got robbed in a ghetto high crime apartment, I decided to keep a fake wallet at all times.

as soon as he delivered the pizza, a man jumped out with a glock and demanded cash, cell phone and jewelry. he gave it all to the BG and the BG demanded to be driven to another apartment or he will shoot. my friend's friends then show up and the BG robs a total of 3 people that night. as the BG is sitting in the back looking at everyones ID and just taking the cash. he was being nice and giving back all personal ID.

worst case is if I was with him and he saw my conceal handgun license I would prob get shot. my friend said there were many chances where he or anyone in the car could have shot him.

luckily no one got hurt, the pizza driver lost about $500 worth of personal belongings + cash
 
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