CHL and Drinking

[ruttdigger]

This is really aimed (no pun intended) to the LEO's but the question is:

In Texas the CHL laws don't specify if there is a limit to the BAC of a CHL carrier. If I go to dinner with a gun and have a beer and then later I am pulled over for speeding (the most likely offence) would my CHL be in jeopardy? I am well under the legal limit for driving and not impaired in any way. What is the real world application of this law?

 

[HighVelocity]

I don't know what the law says but imho, the best plan is that if you're going to drink, leave the gun at home.
Suppose you had to use your gun in a defensive shooting and you had alcohol on your breath. That WILL BE in the police report and could come back to haunt you later.

Alcohol and guns do not mix.

I don't drink at all. That's my plan.

 

[Kurt_M]

I have the same policy. No alcohol and guns, period.

 

[ruttdigger]

that is what I was wondering. I dont want to be un prepaired but at the same time I dont want that to become the issue.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Well, real world is to take the advice above and leave it home.

The state limit for BAC being "intoxicated" is in other statutes. It says in the CHL statutes that you can't carry while "intoxicated".

So, you have to find the entry in the Penal Code that defines "intoxicated".

That's in PC 49.01
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.010.00.000049.00.htm

(2) "Intoxicated" means:
(A) not having the normal use of mental or
physical faculties by reason of the introduction of alcohol, a
controlled substance, a drug, a dangerous drug, a combination of
two or more of those substances, or any other substance into the
body; or
(B) having an alcohol concentration of 0.08 or
more.

 

[Soybomb]

These topics always amuse me, because half the time you have people saying "if I lived in a state that outlawed concelead carry, I'd carry anyway, I will not obey an unjust law, molon labe, from my cold dead hands, etc." Then booze comes up and people say that if you even think about a beer you better not carry in case of law suit. I don't see the logic here, presumably if you shot someone you were out of options. If you didn't have your gun because you had a beer with your steak dinner you would be dead. Safe from a law suit, but dead. Personally I'd find out the law and follow it. If you're out of control with 1 beer or can't control your drinking then leave it at home, but otherwise I think you'll be glad you had it if you use it, beer or not. Ymmv and all that.

 

[Nitrogen]

In my CHL class, I was specifically told there is no BAC level in which your CHL is "safe".

All I need to do is remember the stupid things I did in my childhood while drunk, and that keeps the liquor and guns far, far away from each other.

 

[HankB]

Let me state at the outset that IMHO drunks should not be driving, nor should they be carrying a handgun.

TX CHL laws prohibit carrying "while intoxicated" but fail to define "intoxication."

Some CHL instructors are saying that "intoxication" can mean one drink, but those I've spoken to have been unable to cite any case law establishing this as a de facto limit. IANAL, but a persuasive argument can be made that the 0.08% limit for driving a motor vehicle would be a reasonable assumption for "packing" too. (On the other hand, I don't want to be a test case, either.)

Note that while there are "implied consent" laws on the books with things like automatic suspension of a driver's license if you refuse to take a drunk test while driving a motor vehicle, there are no such laws in regard to CHL.

 

[TexasRifleman]

TX CHL laws prohibit carrying "while intoxicated" but fail to define "intoxication."

That is not correct.

Intoxication is already defined in the Penal Codes. You do not neet to re-define a legal term that is already defined.

The Penal Codes are taken as a whole, not individually.

Intoxication is shown in PC 49.01 and defined there, so anywhere else in the Penal Code you see the word, the same definition applies.

 

[Kurt_M]

Then booze comes up and people say that if you even think about a beer you better not carry in case of law suit.

I could care less about a lawsuit, it's just plain irresponsible to drink while carrying a loaded firearm, same as it's irresponsible to drive while drunk. I enjoy drinking just as much as the next guy, but when I go out to have a good time, someone else is driving and my pistol stays home. This leaves me more vulnerable to attack and I'm aware of it, I consider that the risk that must be taken in order for me to have my fun. This is not a legal issue, it's a safety issue, due to the fact that alcohol use impairs judgement and motor skills.

 

[neoncowboy]

I don't drink at all. That's my plan.

+1
Been working really well for me for a little over 4 years now.

Way, way better than the plan I was on before this one.

 

[Jacobus Rex]

Just don't drink. That is the easy solution.

 

[michael_aos]

In Colorado, the same BAC is the same for driving and CHL.

You're also not allowed to carry in a "liquor establishment" or casino. I think technically if a business derives more than 50% of its income from the sale of alcohol, it's a "liquor establishment".

Mike

 

[Soybomb]

I could care less about a lawsuit, it's just plain irresponsible to drink while carrying a loaded firearm, same as it's irresponsible to drive while drunk.

I disagree, I don't turn into a slobbering idiot after having a drink with a meal. I imagine I'm more impaired after a long days work just from being tired than I am from the beer by the time I leave the restaurant. Zero tolerance laws are terrible because we can't use the reasoning and logic we're born with to analyze a situation and I think to say that you can't ever wear a gun and have a beer is that same zero tolerance thinking.

 

[ruttdigger]

Some of yall make it sound like I was asking about going to the bar and drinking till I really was drunk... I am talking about going to chilis having a Coors and on the way home pulled over for somethign totally unrelated to drinking.

Does anyone know of any case law that has delt with this situation.

I totally agree drinking and guns dont mix. But if the mood strikes me I dont want to run home and put the gun up... you know.

 

[JerryM]

Even if one were stopped, and arrested for carrying while intoxicated, and then found not guilty the stress, and maybe lawyer fees would make it not worth it.

If you can't get by an evening, or have fun without drinking then get help, and save yourself some serious headaches.

Not sure how many times it takes to say "Alcohol and guns do not mix" and have folks understand it.

Jerry

 

[TexasRifleman]

Does anyone know of any case law that has delt with this situation.

Why would you need case law when the Penal Code is clear? There is no ambiguity in how the statutes are written.

Intoxicated means .08 BAC (as far as alcohol goes) and that's that.

The CHL statutes say you can't carry intoxicated and that's that.

Why is this confusing?

 

[444]

Soybomb, I agree with you.

I drink. I enjoy drinking. Most of the time, if I go out, I drink. I also drink at home.
In my opinion this doesn't mean that I surrender my right to defend myself against violent attack. I have no intention of giving up either: I will drink, and I will defend myself if that situation is presented.
If you don't feel that you can trust yourself to drink and act responsibly, then you need to deal with that. I am not worried about it.

I love the self rightous comments.
If you don't want to drink, that's fine. But don't presume to tell me what to do.
So, if I drink, I shouldn't have guns ? Because I do drink at home and I have a safe full of guns. In fact, I have consumed alcohol and owned guns for over 25 years. Guess what ?
Nothing happened.

 

[ElTacoGrande]

I agree with what the others have said: Alcohol and guns don't mix, not at all. I think it's ok to drive after a small amount of beer, but I wouldn't touch a gun. A gun is the fastest possible way there is of messing up one's life with a very small mistake.

 

[dmallind]

For a bunch heavily populated with libertarian types, the prohibitionism and judgemental attitudes towards alcohol are strange indeed.

I don't think it's about not being able to get by an evening or have fun without drinking - people who cannot do so are somewhat likely to have a record where having a CHL in the first place is unlikely.

Instead it's about having the choice to drink responsibly, to enjoy a legal product without excess consumption to the point of significant impairment, and still retain the right of self defence.

If even one serving of alcohol is inappropriate because motor skills are impaired, then why should we allow people with suboptimal motor skills sans alcohol carry? What onjective difference does it make if you have slightly slower reactions because you are old (age slows reaction time) or have had a beer? If responsible (again don't argue this for blistering ratassed drunk - not the issue) drinking causes a lapse in judgement, should we test people for split second accurate judgement before giving them a CHL, and allow only those who are flawless to get them?

If you start saying "moderate alcohol has these effects and carry is not compatible with these effects" then surely you must say carry is incompatible with anyone who has a similar level of skill, reaction time, judgement or mental capacity regardless of whether it comes from alcohol or not. Who wants to go down that road?

The alternative is that it is somehow worse to have a reaction time of X because you have a beer than to have a reaction time of X because you are 75, or have a slight medical condition. The only way it could be worse is because of an excessively "puritan" attitude towards alcohol per se.

I am fine with BAC limits for carry. There is a level beyond which nobody can function acceptably enough to be allowed to carry a gun, or drive. But there is no objective evidence at all that stands up to even passing scrutiny that that BAC level is 0.00

Full disclosure - I do drink, but do not carry while doing so. Most places with booze are posted in my area. However this is not a blanket acceptance of 0.00BAC as a carry requirement, and I am sure at some time I will carry with moderate levels of alcohol. I am not stupid enough to drink to excess in that situation.

Strange though that we argue about gun restrictions with data on all the millions of guns causing no harm and saying that guns should be legal in all cases unless and until used to actually inflict criminal injury, but don't apply that same sound rationale to guns and beer.

 

[ruttdigger]

again I am not saying drinking to excess, feeling a need to drink, or anything else... There is nothing to get "help" for. I will drink a beer when the mood strikes me.

All I was trying to see is if there was a hard fast rule to drinking as it pertains to the CHL laws in Texas.

I got that answer. Thanks. :banghead:

 

[Zundfolge]

In Colorado, the same BAC is the same for driving and CHL.

You're also not allowed to carry in a "liquor establishment" or casino. I think technically if a business derives more than 50% of its income from the sale of alcohol, it's a "liquor establishment".

There's no restriction on carry in a "liquor establishment" or casino in Colorado.

18-12-214. Authority granted by permit - carrying restrictions.

(1) (a) A permit to carry a concealed handgun authorizes the permittee to carry a concealed handgun in all areas of the state, except as specifically limited in this section. a permit does not authorize the permittee to use a handgun in a manner that would violate a provision of state law. a local government does not have authority to adopt or enforce an ordinance or resolution that would conflict with any provision of this part 2.
(b) A peace officer may temporarily disarm a permittee, incident to a lawful stop of the permittee. the peace officer shall return the handgun to the permittee prior to discharging the permittee from the scene.

(2) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law. page 18-senate bill 03-024

(3) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun onto the real property, or into any improvements erected thereon, of a public elementary, middle, junior high, or high school; except that:
(a) A permittee may have a handgun on the real property of the public school so long as the handgun remains in his or her vehicle and, if the permittee is not in the vehicle, the handgun is in a compartment within the vehicle and the vehicle is locked.
(b) A permittee who is employed or retained by contract by a school district as a school security officer may carry a concealed handgun onto the real property, or into any improvement erected thereon, of a public elementary, middle, junior high, or high school while the permittee is on duty.
(c) A permittee may carry a concealed handgun on undeveloped real property owned by a school district that is used for hunting or other shooting sports.

(4) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a public building at which:
(a) Security personnel and electronic weapons screening devices are permanently in place at each entrance to the building;
(b) Security personnel electronically screen each person who enters the building to determine whether the person is carrying a weapon of any kind; and (c) Security personnel require each person who is carrying a weapon of any kind to leave the weapon in possession of security personnel while the person is in the building.

Only places off limits in Colorado are places off limits by federal law, schools, government buildings and anyplace with a metal detector (which might include some clubs, but last time I was up in Cripple Creek I could walk into and out of any of the casinos without any security...and I was packing).



As for drinking and carrying, I think we've gotten extremely ridiculous about alcohol in this country ... there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a beer or glass of wine or two with dinner while carrying a gun or driving (assuming you weigh more than 40 lbs and/or don't have a drinking problem).

 

[ruttdigger]

dmallind EXACTLY THE POINT... thank you for putting it the way I should have.

 

[TexasRifleman]

dmallind EXACTLY THE POINT... thank you for putting it the way I should have.

And I agree with those sentiments also, but my worry is that a jury won't.

What if you have to use your weapon and your BAC is .04? You are not legally intoxicated, and you might be OK in a criminal trial, but put that in front of a jury when the guy you shot sues you for everything you have.

Same with driving. You might be OK at .04, but the civil suit if you have an accident will ruin you.

THAT is my fear of mixing alcohol with driving or guns, the civil suit if something were to go wrong, even if unrelated to the alcohol.

Civil juries truly have a mind of their own, with little steerage of law to guide them.

 

[ruttdigger]

and that is a valid concern. I appreciate you putting it that way instead of

"are you a drunk" "why would you ask such a stupid question guns and drinking dont mix ever for any circumstance and if you do let a sip of anything past your lips you are damned to hell for the rest of eternity"