Col. Cooper & "Substitute Scouts"
- Thread starter freedomlover
- Start date
- Status
smince
Member.
"The term 'Scout' I do not own, but sometimes I wish I did, if only to keep people from messing around and confusing the issue".
"As soon as a Steyr Scout was announced and made available for sale, a large number of people began to produce what may be called imitation scouts...He who buys at a low price above other considerations gets what he pays for...Bargain hunting may be a good idea...but it is a poor policy if applied to personal weapons."
"The Scout concept has proven itself in the field all over the world, but only in the hands of those who appreciate rifles".-Jeff Cooper, The Scout Concept, "C Stories"
If you haven't read this yet, I would invite anyone even remotely interested in the Scout concept to do so.
"As soon as a Steyr Scout was announced and made available for sale, a large number of people began to produce what may be called imitation scouts...He who buys at a low price above other considerations gets what he pays for...Bargain hunting may be a good idea...but it is a poor policy if applied to personal weapons."
"The Scout concept has proven itself in the field all over the world, but only in the hands of those who appreciate rifles".-Jeff Cooper, The Scout Concept, "C Stories"
If you haven't read this yet, I would invite anyone even remotely interested in the Scout concept to do so.
444, even more offensive to the rifle purists, it is going to be a .308 Saiga. 
Tony Rumore of Tromix is doing all of our conversions now. We're sending him some guns to do up as store demos. He has gotten the .308 down to Krinkov sizes, with an eight inch barrel. Remarkably it works, and it is really teeny. I can't put an Ultimak on it for the forward mount because he has to cut the gas system about in half, so it will probably end up as iron sighted. I'll post pictures when I get them done.
Tony Rumore of Tromix is doing all of our conversions now. We're sending him some guns to do up as store demos. He has gotten the .308 down to Krinkov sizes, with an eight inch barrel. Remarkably it works, and it is really teeny. I can't put an Ultimak on it for the forward mount because he has to cut the gas system about in half, so it will probably end up as iron sighted. I'll post pictures when I get them done.Then there is my version, Bubba Scout!
M38, BSA 2x scope, Darrells Mount that I had to take a file to because my rear sight mount is off center and not like most other M38 sights, SurplusRifle trigger job, and the ugliest stock ever put on a rifle
Don
M38, BSA 2x scope, Darrells Mount that I had to take a file to because my rear sight mount is off center and not like most other M38 sights, SurplusRifle trigger job, and the ugliest stock ever put on a rifle
Don
Preacherman
Member
Flatdog, I used a Sharp Shooter target trigger. It adjusts down to ounces if you want that, but I don't - not on a field rifle! I set it to its maximum pressure of two poiunds, and it's very nice and crisp at that level.
Like it or not, 'Scout Rifle' has entered the gun community's vernacular. Much like 'xerox' and 'kleenex', the origin of the word is much more specific than its current usage. For the Xerox and Kleenex corporations, this causes problems because copyright law requires them to protect their trade name. Because their trade name has become a pseudonym for their products- photocopiers (also photoduplications) and facial tissue- there is the danger that other companies may begin to use their trade name, robbing them of their name brand advantage.
Also similar to Mr. Cooper's problem is the fact that these companies' efforts are largely pointless and asinine. It is necessary for them to continue to hold claim on the language, but the genie is already out of the bottle- the words have become vernacular pseudonyms. Everyone knows what you're talking about when you ask for a xerox copy, a kleenex, or a scout rifle.
So, we get to Mr. Cooper having the 'right' to define his own term. That's all fine and dandy. However, it's just window dressing. Most everyone has an idea of what a 'scout rifle' should be. A .30 caliber bolt gun with scout mounted powered scope. That it fully meets the specifications that Cooper set down is neither here nor there; the fact that he isn't satisfied with the scout rifle he himself helped design is telling. 'Scout Rifle' is an IDEAL. That is, something to shoot for, and hopefully meet. The exacting limitations he set are a bullseye, but not meeting the mark is OK too.
He has decided that the Steyr product is as close as we're going to get to his 'Scout Rifle' concept, and that if we want what he considers a 'Scout Rifle', we'd better get one while we still may.
However, that doesn't excuse him for calling the near-hits 'pseudo-scouts'. He has decided that he sets the threshold to meet, and not even his Steyr has met it, apparently. The Steyr Scout is also a pseudo-scout, because it doesn't meet his full approval.
Thus, I must conclude that Cooper is suffering from more than a little hubris.
Anyway, I'm having fun with my current Mosin-Nagant carbine scout. Someday I'll convert a good-shooting M38 into my primary rifle. As for 'general purpose', specialization may be for insects, but they certainly outlived the dinosaurs, didn't they. Use the correct tool for the job.
Also similar to Mr. Cooper's problem is the fact that these companies' efforts are largely pointless and asinine. It is necessary for them to continue to hold claim on the language, but the genie is already out of the bottle- the words have become vernacular pseudonyms. Everyone knows what you're talking about when you ask for a xerox copy, a kleenex, or a scout rifle.
So, we get to Mr. Cooper having the 'right' to define his own term. That's all fine and dandy. However, it's just window dressing. Most everyone has an idea of what a 'scout rifle' should be. A .30 caliber bolt gun with scout mounted powered scope. That it fully meets the specifications that Cooper set down is neither here nor there; the fact that he isn't satisfied with the scout rifle he himself helped design is telling. 'Scout Rifle' is an IDEAL. That is, something to shoot for, and hopefully meet. The exacting limitations he set are a bullseye, but not meeting the mark is OK too.
He has decided that the Steyr product is as close as we're going to get to his 'Scout Rifle' concept, and that if we want what he considers a 'Scout Rifle', we'd better get one while we still may.
However, that doesn't excuse him for calling the near-hits 'pseudo-scouts'. He has decided that he sets the threshold to meet, and not even his Steyr has met it, apparently. The Steyr Scout is also a pseudo-scout, because it doesn't meet his full approval.
Thus, I must conclude that Cooper is suffering from more than a little hubris.
Anyway, I'm having fun with my current Mosin-Nagant carbine scout. Someday I'll convert a good-shooting M38 into my primary rifle. As for 'general purpose', specialization may be for insects, but they certainly outlived the dinosaurs, didn't they. Use the correct tool for the job.
cracked butt
Member
This might be the silliest thread ever.
I'm going to set out to name a vehicle a 'scout SUV'
It has to have the following attributes:
1. It has to be a Prosche Cayenne.
2. It has to have 300 hp.
3. A roofrack is necessary in order to stow your tactical gear.
4. It has to be white in color so that it has a slightly lesser IR signature.
5. The backseat has to be unbolted and removed to reduce weight and increase cargo room.
6. It has to have lightweight aluminum wheels and carbon fiber brakes to reduce unsprung weight.
Sure you can choose a lesser SUV like a Ford Explorer or Chevy Blazer, or better yet, a Suburu Outback, and spend a few dollars to make it like a 'scout SUV' but it really won't be a true scout SUV. Only the exact vehicle that I proclaim to be a 'Scout SUV' is really a 'scout SUV.' Only until you go into a certain amount of debt can you relax and find yourself in 'scout SUV Nirvana' and not have to worry about others' criticism of your feeble attempts to create a 'scout SUV' by cutting corners.
I'm going to set out to name a vehicle a 'scout SUV'
It has to have the following attributes:
1. It has to be a Prosche Cayenne.
2. It has to have 300 hp.
3. A roofrack is necessary in order to stow your tactical gear.
4. It has to be white in color so that it has a slightly lesser IR signature.
5. The backseat has to be unbolted and removed to reduce weight and increase cargo room.
6. It has to have lightweight aluminum wheels and carbon fiber brakes to reduce unsprung weight.
Sure you can choose a lesser SUV like a Ford Explorer or Chevy Blazer, or better yet, a Suburu Outback, and spend a few dollars to make it like a 'scout SUV' but it really won't be a true scout SUV. Only the exact vehicle that I proclaim to be a 'Scout SUV' is really a 'scout SUV.' Only until you go into a certain amount of debt can you relax and find yourself in 'scout SUV Nirvana' and not have to worry about others' criticism of your feeble attempts to create a 'scout SUV' by cutting corners.
I agree fully.ctdonath said:
Sometimes I think that it is not Col. Cooper's opinions themselves that bother some people; but that he has actually reached some conclusions as well!
---------------------------------
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
smince
Member.
For insight into why Jeff Cooper is the way he is, thinks and acts the way he does, read his bio "The Soul and the Spirit" written by his daughter.
I've always liked him, and I like him even more now.
I've always liked him, and I like him even more now.
"Sometimes I think that it is not Col. Cooper's opinions themselves that bother some people; but that he has actually reached some conclusions as well!"
Not to mention that he reached these conclusions through a logical thought process which he explains to the reader.
"This might be the silliest thread ever. "
But you will save us by gracing us with your superior intellect.
Not to mention that he reached these conclusions through a logical thought process which he explains to the reader.
"This might be the silliest thread ever. "
But you will save us by gracing us with your superior intellect.
cracked butt
Member
Nuh ah, not going to go there, staying the high road. Nice try though.
smince
Member.
c_yeager said:
Quote: "I do not do so for cash or any other sort of economic reward"
Sounds pretty straight-forward to me. Evidently you see something we don't?
smince said:Quote: "I do not do so for cash or any other sort of economic reward"
Sounds pretty straight-forward to me. Evidently you see something we don't?
What i see is that he doesnt do it for cash, which does not mean that he doesnt recieve cash.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
freedomlover,
Try it, you'll like it. I used an AO sleeve to mount the scope, and glassed everything into the original stock. The stock's cut off pretty far forward and rounded off, but I have long arms and the front of the stock is at the perfect place for my left hand to wrap around. It had a good trigger as was so I didn't mess with that, and I left the bolt handle straight as it doesn't cause problems with a forward mounted scope. Shoots better than I can hold it...
lpl/nc
Try it, you'll like it. I used an AO sleeve to mount the scope, and glassed everything into the original stock. The stock's cut off pretty far forward and rounded off, but I have long arms and the front of the stock is at the perfect place for my left hand to wrap around. It had a good trigger as was so I didn't mess with that, and I left the bolt handle straight as it doesn't cause problems with a forward mounted scope. Shoots better than I can hold it...
lpl/nc
smince
Member.
c_yeager said:
Alrighty, then.
rbernie
Contributing Member
No, there have been sillier.
But all in all, I'm with CB on this one. The respected Colonel Cooper created a set of criteria to describe a general-purpose rifle and assigned a generic name to that criteria. Just as he internalized, mutated, and extended ideas that existed long before he picked up the torch and carried it forward, others are free to come along behind and extend/mutate those ideas as they see fit. The generic name that Col. Cooper assigned to HIS criteria is just that - a generic name that he neither owns a copyright for, nor can lay claim to in any sense. After all, I'm sure that SOMEBODY, SOMEWHERE called their rifle a 'Scout Rifle' long before before the good Col. usurped the nomenclature for his own purposes....
In sum, I can see no possible logical means to argue that the lineage of the definition and use of the term 'Scout Rifle' must somehow end with the contributions of the good Colonel. Moreover, pushing back on the claim of common-use copyright for the term 'Scout rifle' should not and does not invalidate or diminish the contributions of Cooper to the discussion.
Well, if you read this guy's article about his real-world experiences with a Steyr Scout, I think you'll find that you WANT a substitute, or maybe a different rifle altogether.
The guy has been a student of Cooper's, did two tours in Viet Nam with the Marines, competes in various rifle disciplines, hunts worldwide, and actually likes the Scout concept.
http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/ScoutConcept.asp
The guy has been a student of Cooper's, did two tours in Viet Nam with the Marines, competes in various rifle disciplines, hunts worldwide, and actually likes the Scout concept.
http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/ScoutConcept.asp
Preacherman said:
Thank you sir. I was trying to decide between the Sharp Shooter and RIfle Basix.
Two pounds clean and crisp is just what I need. The thought of a 2oz. trigger on a rifle that light is just plain scary, especially with gloves.
ArmedBear
Thanks for posting that.
I couldn't help thinking as I read that, that most if not all of his problems could have been solved by using an Aimpoint ML3 rather than the scout scope. I can't seem to get much conversation going on this subject. IMO, the scope scope concept was the forerunner to the red dot optic that is now in wide spread use by our combat troops all over the world. If you think about it, the concept is basically the same. The dot optic works in low light, or even no light. It provides more than enough accuracy for a field/hunting/combat rifle clear out to the furthest ranges of realistic field shots. Most red dots are even forward mounted. Since you are shooting with both eyes open, you have an unlimited field of view. If you absolutely have to have magnification, you can get it on the Aimpoint. The optic is as rugged as can be as proven by our military and has a battery life of 50,000 hours.
Another thing that would be a huge improvement to scout rifle is the use of rails for mounting optics. If you had a rail on the top of the receiver (like an AR15 flat top). You could use the dot optic, or switch it out for a high magnification scope if the situation called for it. You could also mount back up iron sights, night vision etc............ This stuff is so practical that it doesn't need to be limited to the military or for combat type rifles. General purpose rifles as well as straight up hunting rifles would benefit also.
Heck, if we bought into this system we could even get rid of this ridiculous scope mounting system where every rifle manufacturer has scope mounts that are unique to that rifle. Wouldn't that suck to have to buy ONE good scope that you could effortlessly switch to a different rifle if you wanted to without changing rings or mounts ? What a concept.
Thanks for posting that.
I couldn't help thinking as I read that, that most if not all of his problems could have been solved by using an Aimpoint ML3 rather than the scout scope. I can't seem to get much conversation going on this subject. IMO, the scope scope concept was the forerunner to the red dot optic that is now in wide spread use by our combat troops all over the world. If you think about it, the concept is basically the same. The dot optic works in low light, or even no light. It provides more than enough accuracy for a field/hunting/combat rifle clear out to the furthest ranges of realistic field shots. Most red dots are even forward mounted. Since you are shooting with both eyes open, you have an unlimited field of view. If you absolutely have to have magnification, you can get it on the Aimpoint. The optic is as rugged as can be as proven by our military and has a battery life of 50,000 hours.
Another thing that would be a huge improvement to scout rifle is the use of rails for mounting optics. If you had a rail on the top of the receiver (like an AR15 flat top). You could use the dot optic, or switch it out for a high magnification scope if the situation called for it. You could also mount back up iron sights, night vision etc............ This stuff is so practical that it doesn't need to be limited to the military or for combat type rifles. General purpose rifles as well as straight up hunting rifles would benefit also.
Heck, if we bought into this system we could even get rid of this ridiculous scope mounting system where every rifle manufacturer has scope mounts that are unique to that rifle.
Wouldn't that suck to have to buy ONE good scope that you could effortlessly switch to a different rifle if you wanted to without changing rings or mounts ? What a concept.444, do you remember Rich Lucibella's Lurker rifle? It was a custom gun by Mad Dog McClung. Right along the lines of what you are talking about. He had a review back on TFL several years ago. Pretty cool rifle actually. Railed out scout, running an Aimpoint, but able to easily swap optics.
Found it. I had the name wrong. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13726&highlight=lurker
waterhouse
Member
I'm on the side that there are specific rules regarding what a scout rifle is. Very specific weights and lengths, etc. I don’t believe that Steyr makes the only one. If you custom build your rifle to fit all parameters, then it is a scout. If it misses any requirements, then it isn’t. I think I read at one point that Cooper stated that he did not care what action the rifle was, but that the weight and caliber and accuracy restrictions tended to point towards a bolt gun. If it can be done with another action, I think that would qualify, so long as weight, etc. were met.
I try to be careful and refer to my marlin 336 as a lever gun "with a scope in the scout position” or “my scout scoped 336.”
I try to be careful and refer to my marlin 336 as a lever gun "with a scope in the scout position” or “my scout scoped 336.”
Armedbear, I agree with that article on the problems with forward mounted scopes. Not to mention the problem of forward mounting on most rifles.
Aimpoints are nice, but lack the high precision for long shots.
My choice was a Remington Model 7 with either a fixed 4x or 1.5-5x variable. Doesn't meet the criteria, but is a short and handy rifle that can cut a tight group.
Cooper broke a lot of new ground and I have the highest regard for his ideas, but they might not work for all of us all the time.
Aimpoints are nice, but lack the high precision for long shots.
My choice was a Remington Model 7 with either a fixed 4x or 1.5-5x variable. Doesn't meet the criteria, but is a short and handy rifle that can cut a tight group.
Cooper broke a lot of new ground and I have the highest regard for his ideas, but they might not work for all of us all the time.
- Status
