Common caliber question finally settled once and for all time

[Speedo66]

Common caliber question finally settled once and for all time

That's funny right there, as if ever.... lol

What's next, best gun or motor oil?

 

[DocRock]

I found that 357 SIG versus 45ACP information in the course of my work at TX DPS, but that was over a decade ago, and i don't have access to it now. HOWEVER, this link will provide more than enough evidence for you, if you read the whole article. VERY pursuasive:

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/TEXAS+DPS+GOES+TO+THE+.357+SIG:.-a056219526

Jim G

But nothing about 45 ACP bouncing off door skins. Because, nonsense.

 

[JimGnitecki]

But nothing about 45 ACP bouncing off door skins. Because, nonsense.

NOT nonsense. You obviously did not read the article I linked to. That was one of TX DPS's biggest issues. Even on glass windshields as well as steel doors. Too little energy left even when the .45 bullet managed to penetrate.

 

[Rubone]

Common caliber question finally settled once and for all time

That's funny right there, as if ever.... lol

What's next, best gun or motor oil?

 

[Speedo66]

From the article:

"In the final analysis, the DPS concluded the .45 ACP simply did not have enough velocity for the diameter to reliably get inside a vehicle. The poor performance of the .45 ACP after tactical barriers is easy to explain. The barriers rob precious velocity from an already low-velocity bullet. The two layers of sheet steel used in the FBI protocol lowers the bullet velocity by 75 to 100 fps. The single layer of windshield glass lowers the velocity by 400 fps.

In a case involving two tactical barriers, following a pursuit, a Trooper fired through the door of a van and struck the driver wearing a leather vest. The result was no bullet expansion and no immediate reaction from the violator even with excellent shot placement striking vital organs."

 

[DocRock]

NOT nonsense. You obviously did not read the article I linked to. That was one of TX DPS's biggest issues. Even on glass windshields as well as steel doors. Too little energy left even when the .45 bullet managed to penetrate.

“Unsatisfied with performance on vehicular barriers” is not 230 grs 45 cal bullets bouncing off door skins. Your original story was bullets bouncing off doors. Still nonsense.

 

[Heir Kommt Die Sonne]

As a devoted revolver guy, 357 Sig is the round that puts revolvers usefulness to rest.
Compared to every major semi-auto caliber, .357 Sig and 10 mm really are the best ones.

The reason i still don't make 357 Sig my main cailber is because 40 S&W is much easier to reload for.

 

[fxvr5]

Compared to every major semi-auto caliber, .357 Sig and 10 mm really are the best ones.

You forgot 9X23 Winchester.

 

[doubleh]

Settled once and for all time? You gotta be dreaming. It's just another youtube "expurt" giving his opinion and you know what is said about opinions compared to certain other things.

 

[mavracer]

In a case involving two tactical barriers, following a pursuit, a Trooper fired through the door of a van and struck the driver wearing a leather vest. The result was no bullet expansion and no immediate reaction from the violator even with excellent shot placement striking vital organs.

Someone has watched too dang much Hollywood, there's plenty of video showing no immediate reaction with no barriers.
A personal hunting experience involving a 225# pig shot with a 270 that turned it's chest cavity was turned to cherry Jello and it's immediate reaction was that of a sprinter to a starter pistol for a 200 yard dash into the woods. Expecting a immediate reaction from a service pistol round is nearly laughable.

 

[JimGnitecki]

“Unsatisfied with performance on vehicular barriers” is not 230 grs 45 cal bullets bouncing off door skins. Your original story was bullets bouncing off doors. Still nonsense.

No, my story was not about bullets "bouncing off of doors". It was about 45 ACP bullets failing to penetrate the door of a highway tractor. Do not exaggerate. And indeed that is what occurred. Many, many TX DPS officers knew of that incident, Andas the link I posted above demonstrates, it was a frequent enough occurrence to warrant special attention in the TX DPS firearms program.

Jim G

 

[mavracer]

One of the problems and the big reason this debate will continue forever is to use a boxing analogy.
We're talking about the difference between punching power of a good flyweight, bantamweight and featherweight but we're dealing in opponents that range from a novice minimumweight to a champion heavyweight. Nobody is gonna want to stand there and take a punch from any of them but some are capable of walking thru a featherweight's punch and pound him.

 

[Heir Kommt Die Sonne]

One of the problems and the big reason this debate will continue forever is to use a boxing analogy.
We're talking about the difference between punching power of a good flyweight, bantamweight and featherweight but we're dealing in opponents that range from a novice minimumweight to a champion heavyweight. Nobody is gonna want to stand there and take a punch from any of them but some are capable of walking thru a featherweight's punch and pound him.

It all goes down to use whatever you are most confident and comfortable carrying. Just be educated and know the capabilities of your caliber of choice.
I like 357 sig/40 S&W because that's the closet to my 357 mag revolvers in ballistics and the frame size in semi-autos of that size are very comfortable for me.
That is not to say I don't carry 9mm from time to time. When I carry a 9mm I don't feel the need to carry extra mags.
I think alot of us change time to time, changing our carry gun like a pair of shoes. Some people are restricted to just one choice so maybe in their situation they need more careful consideration of their caliber. Of the major calibers to choose from (9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, 38 Special) you really can't go wrong unless you purposely are limiting yourself. If you can choose a 10 round gun over a 6 round gun, or if you can choose a 9mm over a .380 , etc.

 

[DocRock]

No, my story was not about bullets "bouncing off of doors". It was about 45 ACP bullets failing to penetrate the door of a highway tractor. Do not exaggerate. And indeed that is what occurred. Many, many TX DPS officers knew of that incident, Andas the link I posted above demonstrates, it was a frequent enough occurrence to warrant special attention in the TX DPS firearms program.

Jim G

It’s nonsense. Either back it up with fact or have the grace to admit it’s nonsense. Your original story was “leaving dents in doors”, which means bullets bouncing off. That’s nonsense.

 

[fxvr5]

These should be required viewing/reading before anyone starts or comments on caliber war threads.


http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power
https://www.police1.com/officer-sho...5-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job-clGBbLYpnqqHxwMq/

 

[mavracer]

It all goes down to use whatever you are most confident and comfortable carrying. Just be educated and know the capabilities of your caliber of choice.

I agree in the words of Harry Callahan "a man's gotta know his limitations".
I mean it's really one of the few things in our control and it's fun to discuss endlessly but the arguing one more round or one larger round being the difference maker is dancing on the head of a pin. These caliber/capacity arguments have been going on for decades if one was clearly more important we surely would have a consensus on it.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

“The veteran’s 45 rounds were denting the truck door but not penetrating.”

Nonsense.

Nope, not really. Depends on the ammo.

I shot up an aluminum keg someone dumped in the weeds at an outdoor range several years ago with several different types of .45 ACP and 9 mm.

I was quite surprised at how often the .45 ammo failed to penetrate...leaving dimples, and dimples with split metal in the center but no penetration.

The 9 mm? Punched holes every single time.

If i were shooting hotter rounds, maybe more would have penetrated.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I'm not sure where folks are getting their 357 Magnum data from but full power 125 grain rounds run at 1,450 fps from a 4.0" barrel.

Also, speeds of a few 9mm 124/127 +P+ can reach 1,300 fps from a 5" barrel.

Which is a unicorn in the EDC world.

 

[DocRock]

Nope, not really. Depends on the ammo.

I shot up an aluminum keg someone dumped in the weeds at an outdoor range several years ago with several different types of .45 ACP and 9 mm.

I was quite surprised at how often the .45 ammo failed to penetrate...leaving dimples, and dimples with split metal in the center but no penetration.

The 9 mm? Punched holes every single time.

If i were shooting hotter rounds, maybe more would have penetrated.

Still not a door skin.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Still not a door skin.

Granted.

But door skins tend to be steel, not aluminum.

 

[WrongHanded]

Granted.

But door skins tend to be steel, not aluminum.

I think it also depends on the door in question. If it was a truck from the 50s or 60s, it might have been more of a barrier than a vehicle made in the last few decades.

I also seem to remember something about Highway Patrols switching to .357 mag for penetration that the .45acp couldn't attain reliably through vehicles. But I have no specifics.

 

[Hartkopf]

I heard the story of it being the floor board that the 45 had trouble penetrating. Floor board steel can be much thicker than exterior body panels.

 

[fxvr5]

Which is a unicorn in the EDC world.

Which? +P+ ammo or 5" barrels?

Winchester Ranger 127 +P+ is, from what I've seen on the internet, issued/carried as duty ammo by some Law Enforcement agencies and is listed by Winchester in their Law Enforcement Catalog.

5" barrels are also used by some Law Enforcement agencies. Think Beretta 92. And certainly some citizen carry 5" barrels, too.

Regardless, my statement was not directed to EDC. It was simply addressing ammo ballistics.

 

[barnetmill]

Brad MIller PhD, who writes a lot of the reloading articles for Shooting Times Magazine, reviewed the Vihtavuori load for me, simulated it in Quick Load, and considers it safe. He also then went on to test a number of high velccity 9mm loads, and then later 9 Major loads also, and published a number of safe loads in 2 different articles in Shooting Times.

The Vihtavouri 3N38 powder I am using turned out to be one of his best powders. It has a very slow burn rate for a pistol powder, which limits the peak pressure despite the high muzzle velocities obtained. However, it is an "inefficient" load, as only about 72% of the pwoder is burned before the bullet exits the barrel.

However, despite the inefficiency, you can get up to 1401 fps if you have a strong handgun (fully supported chamber AND overall strong construction), AND there is no visible fireball as this Vihtavuori powder (like other VV powders) burns very clean. The "flash" is a very faint gray that does not even register to my eyes, but an iPhone video taken at high frames per second will capture it. I run a load that is about exactly in the middle of the range that Vihtavuori recommends to get that 1325 fps velocity (per Labradar, at 55 degrees F).

Jim G

He simulated it in quick load. I am not an engineer, but I have enough experience in science to know that while simulations are useful, they need to be backed, that is verified with hard data.
The need for a fully supported chamber is a warning sign. Not for use in glocks for sure.
Also just a slight variation in volume or chamber dimensions or imperfection of the bases does not leave much of a safety margin with such loads. I like having 10 fingers and 2 eyes. I might try that data to reach 1250 FPS. Another factor is what is the muzzle flash like. Does the Vihtavuori powder has flash suppressants. Under low light conditions muzzle flash can be important.
It really sounds like this is for someone that is involved in gun games that is trying make I think they used to called it major, Not something for combat shooting under reactive conditions.

 

[PWC]

"Finally settled for once and for all time"...

Who do you think you are kidding?