Common caliber question finally settled once and for all time

[fxvr5]

He simulated it in quick load. I am not an engineer, but I have enough experience in science to know that while simulations are useful, they need to be backed, that is verified with hard data.
The need for a fully supported chamber is a warning sign. Not for use in glocks for sure.
Also just a slight variation in volume or chamber dimensions or imperfection of the bases does not leave much of a safety margin with such loads. I like having 10 fingers and 2 eyes. I might try that data to reach 1250 FPS. Another factor is what is the muzzle flash like. Does the Vihtavuori powder has flash suppressants. Under low light conditions muzzle flash can be important.
It really sounds like this is for someone that is involved in gun games that is trying make I think they used to called it major, Not something for combat shooting under reactive conditions.

Some 9mm Glock barrels have very good chamber support. If the loads are within SAAMI and CIP specs, there should be no danger with any powder reaching its max speed. Some powders just produce more speed. Vit 3N38 is one of them. 3N38 has a bit of muzzle flash. You'll have to try it to see what you think of it.

They still call it 'Major'. With a 9mm-length case they call it 9 Major.
https://americanhandgunner.com/discover/whats-9-major/

 

[JimGnitecki]

Some 9mm Glock barrels have very good chamber support. If the loads are within SAAMI and CIP specs, there should be no danger with any powder reaching its max speed. Some powders just produce more speed. Vit 3N38 is one of them. 3N38 has a bit of muzzle flash. You'll have to try it to see what you think of it.

They still call it 'Major'. With a 9mm-length case they call it 9 Major.
https://americanhandgunner.com/discover/whats-9-major/

Yes, that "full" load that delievrs 1401 fps does probbaly qualify as "Major" for IPSC, or is close to doing so, given its PF = 161. Vihtavouri assures the readers of its online loading manual that all its loads are within SAAMI / CIP specs for the caliber. Still, it's a pretty strong load, and I am satisfied with the 1325 fps that loading to only the middle of the table gives me. That's 8.0 g versus the 8.7 g maximum that VV shows. So, it's only 8.0/8.7 = 92% of max load.

In MY handgun, it's a comfortable load with relatively comfortable recoil, (and insanely accurate despite mediocre SD and ES) but do NOT take this as meaning that MY load will work in YOUR handgun. I did a proper ladder test, checked for any pressure signs (none), monitored muzzle velocity via Labradar, and control BTO to within .0015" and staying well above the load table COAL.

Jim G

 

[fxvr5]

Yes, that "full" load that delievrs 1401 fps does probbaly qualify as "Major" for IPSC, or is close to doing so, given its PF = 161.

In USPSA, Major requires a minimum 165 power factor, so a speed of at least 1,434 fps for a 115 grain bullet.

 

[barnetmill]

Some 9mm Glock barrels have very good chamber support. If the loads are within SAAMI and CIP specs, there should be no danger with any powder reaching its max speed. Some powders just produce more speed. Vit 3N38 is one of them. 3N38 has a bit of muzzle flash. You'll have to try it to see what you think of it.

They still call it 'Major'. With a 9mm-length case they call it 9 Major.
https://americanhandgunner.com/discover/whats-9-major/

Which factory glock barrels offer good support in 9x19?

 

[barnetmill]

Yes, that "full" load that delievrs 1401 fps does probbaly qualify as "Major" for IPSC, or is close to doing so, given its PF = 161. Vihtavouri assures the readers of its online loading manual that all its loads are within SAAMI / CIP specs for the caliber. Still, it's a pretty strong load, and I am satisfied with the 1325 fps that loading to only the middle of the table gives me. That's 8.0 g versus the 8.7 g maximum that VV shows. So, it's only 8.0/8.7 = 92% of max load.

In MY handgun, it's a comfortable load with relatively comfortable recoil, (and insanely accurate despite mediocre SD and ES) but do NOT take this as meaning that MY load will work in YOUR handgun. I did a proper ladder test, checked for any pressure signs (none), monitored muzzle velocity via Labradar, and control BTO to within .0015" and staying well above the load table COAL.

Jim G

I would prefer to use what ever methods the ammo factories use to determine pressures. I believe those involve transducers and other devices that are repeatable and measure pressure with some sort of number that I can read.

 

[JimGnitecki]

I would prefer to use what ever methods the ammo factories use to determine pressures. I believe those involve transducers and other devices that are repeatable and measure pressure with some sort of number that I can read.

Yeah, I'd like that too, but there is no way to do that with a production 9mm semiauto pistol. The "strips" (with wires atatched) that read pressure have to attach directly to the barrel, not the slide, and of course that is not possible.

Jim G

 

[barnetmill]

Yeah, I'd like that too, but there is no way to do that with a production 9mm semiauto pistol. The "strips" (with wires atatched) that read pressure have to attach directly to the barrel, not the slide, and of course that is not possible.

Jim G

But you can measure it in pressure barrel for reference. The common pressure signs looked for in rifles like with primers are supposed to occur at pressures way about what a 9x19 parabellum runs at. But if it works for you that is all very good. There are transducers that can attached to bolt action rifles, never heard of anyone doing that with pistols.

 

[jimbo555]

https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/barriers-and-ammo/ 45acp worked fine in this comparison.

 

[fxvr5]

Which factory glock barrels offer good support in 9x19?

My G19 and G19C barrels have as much chamber support as my S3F and Lone Wolf Alpha Wolf aftermarket barrels for the G19.

 

[barnetmill]

My G19 and G19C barrels have as much chamber support as my S3F and Lone Wolf Alpha Wolf aftermarket barrels for the G19.

Is this the same as fully supported.
Last time I looked at my G19 it was similar to the picture below. Fact is unsupported brass if the gap in support is not extreme is usually safe. But increasing the pressures above SAAMI specs and using reloaded previously fired cases reduces this margin of safety. Now it is the 40 caliber glocks that have the Kabooms, but no reason to tempt fate in a 9x19 with loads that may be too in high in pressure with the goal to gain maybe 10% or likely less gain in velocity. Trying to make a .357 sig out of a 9x19 is not the best idea.
Removing the gap usually makes the gun less reliable for feeding unless the barrel has an extended ramp that does not cut into the chamber of the barrel.
Fact is that the .357 sig barrel can be made with much better support since the bottle neck design facilitates feeding, but I not check to see if the OEM .357 sig barrels are better. The .357 sig case has a larger case capacity and seems safer to work with it.

 

[Tirod]

Getting bullets to stop penetration in humans yet go thru metal doors and glass windshields isn't going to work out well. It will always be a compromise with some kind of cost involved when it doesn't work very well.

Civilian shooters accepting an FBI protocol for shooting thru windows as their personal metric may not be well served when it's more likely they will be confronted within 7 yards and the aggressor wearing a canvas winter jacket at worst.

splchker meh

 

[fxvr5]

But increasing the pressures above SAAMI specs and using reloaded previously fires cases reduces this margin of safety. Now it is the 40 caliber glocks that have the Kabooms, but no reason to tempt fate in a 9x19 with loads that may be too in high in pressure with the goal to gain maybe 10% or likely less gain in velocity. Trying to make a .357 sig out of a 9x19 is not the best idea.

Fact is that the .357 sig barrel can be made with much better support since the bottle design facilitates feeding, but I not check to see if the OEM .457 sig barrels are better. The .357 sig case has a larger case capacity and seems safer to work with it.

The 3N38 load Jim is talking about is well below the max charge yet still produces very high speed. I've run the max charge with 3N38 and 115 gr bullets and got >1,300 fps from a 4" barrel and > 1,380 fps from a 5" barrel. There is no danger because the loads are within max SAAMI/CIP pressure specs. Vit is more than likely using the CIP pressure standards, and their pressure limit for 9mm Luger is 34,084 psi (2,350 bar).
https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-iv/tabivcal-en-page28.pdf

So, no problem.

 

[barnetmill]

The 3N38 load Jim is talking about is well below the max charge yet still produces very high speed. I've run the max charge with 3N38 and 115 gr bullets and got >1,300 fps from a 4" barrel and > 1,380 fps from a 5" barrel. There is no danger because the loads are within max SAAMI/CIP pressure specs. Vit is more than likely using the CIP pressure standards, and their pressure limit for 9mm Luger is 34,084 psi (2,350 bar).
https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-iv/tabivcal-en-page28.pdf

So, no problem.

You may very well be correct. I am just going by what I see posted here"
'Vit is more than likely using the CIP pressure standards, and their pressure limit for 9mm Luger is 34,084 psi (2,350 bar).'

The more than likely statement is not reassuring. If it is Vit the company's assurance that certainly helps. If I can nail this down, I likely when components become more available, might try it. I normally do not reload 9mm luger parabellum because 9mm was not normally expensive and that for amount of high performance ammo that I needed like you are producing it was simpler to purchase. The more expensive ammo I reload or also what is hard to find. My time is worth something, but then I am not trying to make a major power factor.

CIP is the european standard for the 9mm that is supposed to be close usually to SAAMI
From the link:
Pressures (Energies)Method TransducerPmax=2350barPK=2703barPE=3055barM=12.50
But that still does not tell me what pressures are actually produced in your loads.

One wants to see the data listed like below. Gives at least some standard and of course your load will act differently in you own gun. Each Component ie, primer, brand, type of bullet and barrel are variables in the final result.

Hodgdon data: Winchester WSF powder 115 grain bullet

 

[fxvr5]

You may very well be correct. I am just going by what I see posted here"
'Vit is more than likely using the CIP pressure standards, and their pressure limit for 9mm Luger is 34,084 psi (2,350 bar).'

The more than likely statement is not reassuring. If it is Vit the company's assurance that certainly helps. If I can nail this down, I likely when components become more available, might try it. I normally do not reload 9mm luger parabellum because 9mm was not normally expensive and that for amount of high performance ammo that I needed like you are producing it was simpler to purchase. The more expensive ammo I reload or also what is hard to find. My time is worth something, but then I am not trying to make a major power factor.

CIP is the european standard for the 9mm that is supposed to be close usually to SAAMI
From the link:
Pressures (Energies)Method TransducerPmax=2350barPK=2703barPE=3055barM=12.50
But that still does not tell me what pressures are actually produced in your loads.

One wants to see the data listed like below. Gives at least some standard and of course your load will act differently in you own gun. Each Component ie, primer, brand, type of bullet and barrel are variables in the final result.

You sound like a conspiracy theorist. You're really over-interpreting what I've written.

I guess you don't use load data from Hornady, Sierra, Nosler or Speer (and who knows who else) since they don't list the actual pressure in their load data. They don't list the lot number of their components, either. OMG!!!!!

Why do you use factory ammo? Do they have the pressure listed on their box? How do you know they've tested it?

Given your train of thought, how dare you use any load data that you have not personally tested with your own pressure testing equipment?


With respect to Vihtavuori, they are very clear about their methods and data.
https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/handgun-reloading/

"All of this reloading information has been provided by Nammo Lapua Oy and Nammo Vihtavuori Oy. The data given here were obtained in laboratory conditions following strictly the CIP (Commission International Permanente) June 13, 1990 and November 9, 1993 rules. The listed maximum loads have been determined according to the respective CIP/SAAMI maximum pressure specification, whichever is lower. These test methods have been deemed to be safe throughout the world. Pressure is measured at the case mouth or from inside the case according to the CIP."

 

[JimGnitecki]

For what it's worth, I have fire 646 shots so far using the 3N38 load i mentioned above. No issues. And Vihtavuoiri DOES assure us, in wirting, on their website that ALL the loads they list ARE within SAAMI / CIP limits, and whichever is more conservative! So, I figure that since I am only HALFWAY up between their minimum load and their maximum load, AND am running a longer COAL than they ran, AND see no pressure signs, AND the muzzle velocity per Labradar is exactly what I expected, AND a respected ballisitican has vetted the load (as mentioned above), I figure this load is more than safe. But, I also know that some people will never accept it DESPITE all that.

Jim G

 

[DTL]

It's actually silly to ague. You like "X" I like "Y" & J.Q. Public prefers "Z". Great.. thats perfect. Whatever you believe in enough to bet your life on by being efficient & proficient with is best.

 

[barnetmill]

You sound like a conspiracy theorist. You're really over-interpreting what I've written.

I guess you don't use load data from Hornady, Sierra, Nosler or Speer (and who knows who else) since they don't list the actual pressure in their load data. They don't list the lot number of their components, either. OMG!!!!!

Why do you use factory ammo? Do they have the pressure listed on their box? How do you know they've tested it?

Given your train of thought, how dare you use any load data that you have not personally tested with your own pressure testing equipment?


With respect to Vihtavuori, they are very clear about their methods and data.
https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/handgun-reloading/

"All of this reloading information has been provided by Nammo Lapua Oy and Nammo Vihtavuori Oy. The data given here were obtained in laboratory conditions following strictly the CIP (Commission International Permanente) June 13, 1990 and November 9, 1993 rules. The listed maximum loads have been determined according to the respective CIP/SAAMI maximum pressure specification, whichever is lower. These test methods have been deemed to be safe throughout the world. Pressure is measured at the case mouth or from inside the case according to the CIP."

Hornady, Sierra, Nosler or Speer: I have noticed over the years that some loads have been reduced. And I have gotten a lot more cautious about what I do. I like the hodgdon way of presenting data.
The top velocities obtained were just too high to believe that they were safe and I wanted to see some hard data and that seems to offend some. I am not offended will always ask hard questions before embarking on some projects. I have learned the hard way to be careful when it sounds too good to be true. Conspiracy theories well I think not.
Right now I am looking for top loads in 7.62x39 that duplicate the velocities of loads in commercially produced russian steel case ammo. Often the american listed loads for that round produced less velocity with barnes bullets. So I am looking for hard data.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Hornady, Sierra, Nosler or Speer: I have noticed over the years that some loads have been reduced. And I have gotten a lot more cautious about what I do. I like the hodgdon way of presenting data.
The top velocities obtained were just too high to believe that they were safe and I wanted to see some hard data and that seems to offend some. I am not offended will always ask hard questions before embarking on some projects. I have learned the hard way to be careful when it sounds too good to be true. Conspiracy theories well I think not.
Right now I am looking for top loads in 7.62x39 that duplicate the velocities of loads in commercially produced russian steel case ammo. Often the american listed loads for that round produced less velocity with barnes bullets. So I am looking for hard data.

Your search for hard data may be a very long one given your apparent evidentary standards. Good luck.

Jim G

 

[tactikel]

There is a reason that 9mm is used worldwide by virtually every every major military and police, it is the perfect balance between power, accuracy, cost. The .45 ACP is used by none.
I love the .45 ACP, but my edc is a 9mm.
Testing against drywall, car doors, glass etc is fine, but if countless millions of rounds fired in combat over 125 years is good enough for the professionals, it is good enough for me.

 

[DocRock]

… it is the perfect balance between power, accuracy, cost.

To each, his own. And I do not begrudge you your choice in the least but the above is simply incorrect. It is not the perfect balance at all. It is the lowest common denominator.

 

[barnetmill]

There is a reason that 9mm is used worldwide by virtually every every major military and police, it is the perfect balance between power, accuracy, cost. The .45 ACP is used by none.
I love the .45 ACP, but my edc is a 9mm.
Testing against drywall, car doors, glass etc is fine, but if countless millions of rounds fired in combat over 125 years is good enough for the professionals, it is good enough for me.

To each, his own. And I do not begrudge you your choice in the least but the above is simply incorrect. It is not the perfect balance at all. It is the lowest common denominator.

The military uses it, their requirements are in part logistical that includes shipping, storage, and costs. It often includes dual usage in submachine guns.
Logistically the 9 is a better for me as a civilian. It is more plentiful and shooting/training ammo is normally cheaper than I can reload it. I can get some very compact weapons for it that are still very manageable.

 

[RETG]

Nine MM will not kill.....





Curious how many would prefer being shot in the forehead with a 9mm then in the foot with a .45?

 

[JR24]

Nine MM will not kill.....View attachment 1009697View attachment 1009698View attachment 1009699


View attachment 1009700


Curious how many would prefer being shot in the forehead with a 9mm then in the foot with a .45?

That's just a foolish comparison, and the same could be said between a .22 SHORT and a 9mm, or anything.

A more apt comparison is which you'd prefer to be using to try to stop a charging knife wielder, possibly on drugs.

Personally, I think between the three it's all the same, just some trade offs between expanded size and recoil (which could lead to more hits during any given time period).

As far as I'm concerned it just up to taste.

 

[barnetmill]

That's just a foolish comparison, and the same could be said between a .22 SHORT and a 9mm, or anything.

A more apt comparison is which you'd prefer to be using to try to stop a charging knife wielder, possibly on drugs.

Personally, I think between the three it's all the same, just some trade offs between expanded size and recoil (which could lead to more hits during any given time period).

As far as I'm concerned it just up to taste.

Pistols are pistols and shotguns are shotgun. Guess which one I prefer.
If you have a pistol, this is where getting of the X can be important. If you can not head shoot a highly motivated changing man under split second conditions, it may be quite difficult to survive.

How fast can a man with a knife run?
Tueller found that “the average healthy adult male,” running with a knife or other contact weapon in hand, can cover a distance of seven yards in about 1.5 seconds – the time it takes the “average” officer to draw a sidearm and place two hits center-mass on a man-size target 21 feet away.

If you are carrying concealed the draw will likely take longer. If the attacks start at closer distances regardless of the caliber or skill one would be in a lot of trouble .

 

[JR24]

Pistols are pistols and shotguns are shotgun. Guess which one I prefer.
If you have a pistol, this is where getting of the X can be important. If you can not head shoot a highly motivated changing man under split second conditions, it may be quite difficult to survive.

If you are carrying concealed the draw will likely take longer. If the attacks start at closer distances regardless of the caliber or skill one would be in a lot of trouble .

Absolutely, practicing the Tueller drill with a moving target certainly is an eye opener. Working on moving off the X while getting hits is also very worthwhile.