Concealed Carry For Old Folks

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Armored farmer said:
My gut instinct says to go with a revolver.
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I concur

also, just a note - nothing wrong with just carrying a bottle of mace as a backup. I usually have one in my auto, and one on top of my gun cabinet.

there is also the option of just having a NAA mini revolver or something as a backup, in case of a real world jam. they are really small.
 
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I'm simply curious about what the OP considers "Old Folks." I've entered my sixties, but have suffered from arthritis in my fingers and wrists for years. I don't consider myself old. There are a number of techniques that work for racking slides on semi-autos with even the stiffest of springs. I've been teaching them for years (mostly to petite females, some older officers and even some males who, ah, don't have much in the way of hand/arm strength).

I kind of object to suggesting one give up autoloaders solely due to difficulty racking the slides. Once one begins firing, obviously the single-action is the optimum routine. Recommending revolvers? What, are you gonna tell the oldsters to thumb-cock for every shot? DA revolver shooting can be as problematic for folks with finger/hand/arm issues as much as chambering rounds.

.308 Norma said:
he had one of those little Berreta "Tomcat" (.32ACP) pistols with a tip-up barrel in a pocket almost everywhere he went. With the "tip-up" barrel, he didn't have to rack the slide - he just tipped the barrel up, shoved a round in, closed the barrel and cocked the hammer back with his thumb for the first shot.
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Beretta makes the esteemed Model 86, a .380 with the tip-up barrel. My spouse (similarly afflicted as myself) loves her tip-up barrels.
 
Old Dog said:
I'm simply curious about what the OP considers "Old Folks."
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I surely don't know. I'm 74, and I won't say how old my wife is, but she isn't allowed to contribute to her IRA anymore. ;)
However, I consider myself one of those "reasonable fit adult males" someone was talking about. While my wife, who is also "reasonable fit," struggles with arthritis in her right thumb joint, which makes it difficult for her to operate the slide on some pistols.
Note: I didn't say my wife can't operate the slide on some pistols, I said it's "difficult" for her to operate the slide on some pistols. She loves her Sig P239, and she's real good with it even though it's harder for her to operate its slide than it is for her to operate the slide on her Smith EZ .380. Besides that, her Sig P239 is bigger than her Smith EZ, making it more "difficult" for her to conceal on her 5'2" (only 5'1" now that she's older) 120lb frame. Again - "difficult," not impossible. :)
On a side note, a couple of weeks ago, my wife and I both realized how much we've "aged" in the last few years. I killed a good-sized mule deer buck right at sunset on opening day, and even though I was able to back the truck right up to the dead deer, my wife and I had one heck of a time getting him loaded. And it was well after dark before we got him home - which is only 12 or 13 miles from where I shot him. Then we were another hour getting the dead deer hung up in the shed.
Just a few years ago, we would have said that was a "really easy hunt." This year we were stiff and sore for 3 days afterwards, and last night was the first night in 2 weeks that my wife was finally able to sleep on her right side again. :uhoh:
 
Sounds familiar!

I overdid some exercises yesterday at the gym and pulled an abdominal muscle. My wife asked where it hurt, and when I showed her she said, “You might be ovulating!” I replied, “Cool; at least I’m not pregnant.”

(For you kids, this is humor between a man and woman in their mid-70s.)
 
ilbob writes:

My personal opinion is that if he is getting to the point where he cannot operate a standard firearm, it may be time to no longer carry one.
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Define "standard firearm", please.

If I got to the trouble being discussed and could only handle, say, a Heritage Barkeep, that's what I'd have instead of going unarmed just because I can't rack a slide on an M&P40.
 
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I'm only 57, but I've been very weak off and on the past few years due to illness, and at one point I also had a broken finger on my dominant hand.

With the broken finger I couldn't operate a semiauto. Luckily I had a small and a medium 38 special with very good DAO triggers. I could fire them both well enough for SD with my non-dominant hand.

When I'm permanently old and weak I'll gravitate towards 32 revolvers. I'll be able to shoot a 32 S&W long revolver with a nice trigger for about as long as I can shoot a 22 caliber anything.

This is my most common EDC. The trigger is excellent. When mild 38 specials are too much recoil, I'll just switch to a similar 32 caliber revolver. It is safe to pocket carry in a holster and only has two "controls" (trigger and cylinder release).

EDC

EDC

 
J frame Smith or similar. One with a bobbed hammer or DAO if we want to simplify things even further. Aluminum framed ones are nice n light.

Beretta Bobcat with a tip up barrel?

Consider crossdraw carry if individual is in the sitting position more often than not, or if flexibility in shoulder isn't what it used to be.
 
Old Dog said:
I'm simply curious about what the OP considers "Old Folks." I've entered my sixties, but have suffered from arthritis in my fingers and wrists for years. I don't consider myself old. There are a number of techniques that work for racking slides on semi-autos with even the stiffest of springs. I've been teaching them for years (mostly to petite females, some older officers and even some males who, ah, don't have much in the way of hand/arm strength).
.
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My thoughts too. On a side note I am old enough to be your parent so you are still a kid to me. However, people develop limiting problems at different ages. My hands are still in good shape but my wife's are in terrible shape from arthritis and have been for years. I don't understand how she manages to do anything with them but she still makes me look silly tying knots in vegetable bags and other delicate things. I manage to get them done but she does it at least four times faster than me with hands that look like her fingers won't even bend. My main problem is muscle loss from ageing and she is even worse. The simple fact is that as we age we lose our abilities. When one of these threads appears there are always the "get a revolver" suggestions. If you are weak enough to have trouble racking a slide pulling a double action trigger will also be a problem as will be cocking the hammer to shoot in single action mode. Aging gives you a new perspective on what you can and no longer can do.

The intended user, not a husband, wife, friend, or other surrogate, should go to a friendly gunshop or range that will let them try to see if they are capable of operating a certain firearm and if not, try another until they find something that will work for them.
 
I am past the midpoint of my seventh decade. My EDC is a S&W Shield (8+1 Capacity) 9x19mm. I have no problems manipulating it.
 
If someone reaches the point where they can't safely operate a firearm anymore then it might be time to not carry one. To me this means all aspects of use such as loading and unloading, holstering and unholstering, and being able to accurate shoot what is being aimed at. If I can't do all of these things with complete safety then I should not carry. The statistics of needing a firearm are very low and the risk to oneself from their own gun can't exceed that.

The OPs friend may not be to that point yet but it's an important thing to consider when talking about guns and the elderly or infirm.
 
Someone who is having trouble racking a gun because of arthritis also may have trouble with the recoil on a 9mm or .40. It may be time to go down in caliber as well.

Others have mentioned the Shield EZ in 9mm or .380. The .380 version is very easy to rack. (No experience with the 9mm.) Shooting it felt different for me because I am used to shooting striker fired guns. It is on the larger side for a CCW gun, but the longer barrel gets the most out of the .380, adding about 50 fps of muzzle velocity over shorter barreled guns. The grip safety is not difficult to use. But, if you grip the gun wrong and miss deactivating the safety, you will have to release the trigger and pull it again after the safety is deactivated. It will not fire if the trigger is held in the pulled position and the safety is deactivated afterward.

The LCP MAX is popular right now. It is easy to rack. It is a small gun with only a 2.8 inch barrel. It is very easy to hide in a pocket. It comes with a front night night and a decent rear sight. Many people like them, but I found it to be difficult to shoot accurately at all but the closest distances, and the recoil from such a light gun is harsh and makes follow-up shots really slow for me. It may not be good for someone with arthritis. The standard capacity is 10+1 rounds, but extended 12 round magazines are available.

The Sig P365-380 is easier to rack than the 9mm version of the P365, but not as easy as the Shield. It may or may not work for the OP's friend. IMHO it is the best gun of the bunch. It comes with decent 3 dot night sights. It has an optic cut out if you want to go that way. (I didn't. BTW, the optic can be used for racking also. If you go with a Holosun 407K/507K, just be sure to activate the lock-out feature so you don't turn it off racking the gun.) The recoil and muzzle flip are substantially less than the 9mm version, which means that it can be fired very rapidly. Its accuracy can almost keep up with a duty gun at 25+ yards. Standard capacity is 10+1 with 12 round extended magazines available. The only downside to all this awesomeness is that pocket carriers generally think it is too big, although it can work for some. Adding the optic may preclude pocket carry as well.
 
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The_Quartermaster said:
Until he needs to do it for himself to clear a malfunction and never trained to do it that way, and is being attacked in parking lot wearing comfortable clothes and no jeans or hard objects to rack it with.
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A belt or a kydex or quality leather holster will work for one-handed racking if the gun has a decent rear sight. The heel of shoes also work if you are kneeling. It only takes a minute for someone to learn if that has a possibility of working, and it doesn't require extensive training to remain in practice. It is true that these techniques will not work if someone only wants to wear soft pajama pants and Crocs.
 
WYO said:
A belt or a kydex or quality leather holster will work for one-handed racking if the gun has a decent rear sight. The heel of shoes also work if you are kneeling. It only takes a minute for someone to learn if that has a possibility of working, and it doesn't require extensive training to remain in practice. It is true that these techniques will not work if someone only wants to wear soft pajama pants and Crocs.
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Work smarter, not harder. With an easy to rack Shield EZ, they are back in the fight in seconds and not minutes without trying to do Costa Japan moves on the model's runway. And seconds really does matter if you want to win or lose.

Your solution isn't optimal and a setup for failure. C'mon man, think this through using logical thought deduction without superimposing yourself into the gentleman's shoes that the OP was asking help in suggestions for.

They made the EZ exactly for this, to give even the old, weak, injured, weak, and diseased an actual fighting chance.
 
WYO said:
Someone who is having trouble racking a gun because of arthritis also may have trouble with the recoil on a 9mm or .40. It may be time to go down in caliber as well.

Others have mentioned the Shield EZ in 9mm or .380. The .380 version is very easy to rack. (No experience with the 9mm.)
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I believe that's the exact thing I explained in my first post (#18) in this thread. My very experienced handgun shooting wife carries a Sheild EZ (.380) because it's difficult for her to operate the slide on her larger Sig P239 (9mm) due to the arthritis in her right thumb joint. Note, I didn't say it was impossible for my wife to operate the slide on her Sig P239, just that it's difficult for her to operate it.
I also wrote that our somewhat less experienced oldest daughter carries a Shield EZ (9mm) that she let my wife try out. My wife didn't mention whether or not the slide was harder to operate than the slide on her own .380 Shield EZ, but she emphatically did state that our daughter's 9mm Shield EZ "kicks harder" than her own .380 Shield EZ. :eek:
Then again, my wife loves her sweet shooting 9mm Sig P239, and she ran the required 98-100 round through it in a couple of hours when we completed the Idaho "Enhanced" Concealed Carry class together a few years back. The recoil didn't bother her one bit. The difficulty she had operating her P239's slide did.
Besides that, the slightly larger Sig P239 is more difficult for my 5'1", 120lb wife to conceal than her little Shield EZ is. Again, I said "more difficult," not "impossible." ;)
 
The_Quartermaster said:
Work smarter, not harder. With an easy to rack Shield EZ, they are back in the fight in seconds and not minutes without trying to do Costa Japan moves on the model's runway. And seconds really does matter if you want to win or lose.

Your solution isn't optimal and a setup for failure. C'mon man, think this through using logical thought deduction without superimposing yourself into the gentleman's shoes that the OP was asking help in suggestions for.
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I never said it was optimal. I was merely pointing out that it is not as insurmountable an issue as you inferred in your prior post. It doesn't take fine motor skills or an inordinate amount of time to rack using a holster. Besides, once one gets into the realm of having to manipulate the slide during the middle of a gunfight, they already are in the realm of losing seconds in diagnosing and correcting the issue. (If it is a simple reload from slide lock, that takes very little hand strength to retract the slide of most firearms.) Nevertheless, the techniques that I mentioned should be in everyone's toolkit along with other techniques like drawing and shooting with the support hand only, one handed reloads and one handed malfunction clearance. We don't always have the luxury of being able to use both hands or even our preferred hand in a dynamic situation.
 
WYO said:
I never said it was optimal. I was merely pointing out that it is not as insurmountable an issue as you inferred in your prior post. It doesn't take fine motor skills or an inordinate amount of time to rack using a holster. Besides, once one gets into the realm of having to manipulate the slide during the middle of a gunfight, they already are in the realm of losing seconds in diagnosing and correcting the issue. (If it is a simple reload from slide lock, that takes very little hand strength to retract the slide of most firearms.) Nevertheless, the techniques that I mentioned should be in everyone's toolkit along with other techniques like drawing and shooting with the support hand only, one handed reloads and one handed malfunction clearance. We don't always have the luxury of being able to use both hands or even our preferred hand in a dynamic situation.
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Not my first rodeo dealing with folks whom decide not to listen and instead try to strongly convince otherwise. And contrary to your own opinion, it actually is surmountable making your entire reply quixotic at the very least. It also doesn't take making an an excuse to try to force the issue of staying with what they have just so you could feel good about it. Who's carrying this, you or them? If not you, then there is no need for overt concern for them to try to do it the way you'd like them to. And for all of that else, you are extrapolating this needlessly.

The Shield EZ was made for this, everything else is an superimposed excuse not to. Which now leads me to ask, what is it that you don't like about the Shield EZ that's making you this stubborn to go to extremes with over?

Give the fella fighting chance, it's not your life at stake here god forbid he finds himself into an unbackable corner. Malfunction if occurs, well the dYnAmIcS here are: easy to now use then the current gun he has, easier to get back into the fight. I don't know you from me but speaking for myself now, I'd want every advantage possible over any would be assailant. and I'm almost positive that every other normal not an operator would agree with me here.
 
The_Quartermaster said:
The Shield EZ was made for this, everything else is an superimposed excuse not to. Which now leads me to ask, what is it that you don't like about the Shield EZ that's making you this stubborn to go to extremes with over?
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Did you see my Post #65? I like the Shield EZ. My wife carries one in .380, although not because of hand strength issues. It should be in the hunt for consideration by the OP's friend.

Apologies to the group for this thread drift.
 
The_Quartermaster said:
Until he needs to do it for himself to clear a malfunction and never trained to do it that way, and is being attacked in a parking lot wearing comfortable clothes and no jeans or hard objects to rack it with.
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I get it, the EZ is your choice. As I mentioned with the link, besides table rack there are add ons that make a slide easy to rack.
 
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