Contacted by BATFE today!! *Update*

[t165]

Damn model 649...thanks for clearing that up for me. After all my law classes and years on the job I actually thought "you have the RIGHT to remain silent" was taken from a Constitutional Amendment...the 5th to be exact. And I'll let all the judges, prosecutors, defense attorneys, law instructors and experienced LEO's I've worked with in the past know the 5th Amendment is not a Right. I'll be sure and let them know how wrong they are. Heck, I'll even email the SCOTUS so you can correct them. I'm sure glad I happened to be blessed with your legal guidance...you are my new hero.....NOT!

That was a real funny post...got anymore good ones?

 

[model 649]

So, the attorney and the cop are incorrect? I never mentioned the fifth, and neither did you. More explanation? Were they only correct in VA?

Josh

 

[DEANBILT]

Why not arrange to have your lawyer produce said weapons and be done with it. Where there's smoke....

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Because the "Big Gubmint' gonna git ma guns" woobie has yet to materialize since the whipping of the dems in the 90s for passing the AWB?

And you do not believe this is how such woobie begins? Every despotic tyranny began with a seemingly innocuous intrusion. Your rights should be like a bee hive. Just get too close and you're going to get stung.

...I would venture to guess, 99% of the people the agents visit invite them in, show them the firearms in question, and leave.

And you believe that is the end of it? How long before the ATF has a brainstorm and begins to wonder if you sold your guns soon after they left? They'll be back, again, and again, and again.

There’s no such thing a(s) “routine” questioning although, there may be if we continue to allow it.

That's the whole point of this thread. Short, sweet, and succinct, Mr Rockwell1. I commend you.

Woody

As the Court said in Boyd v. United States: "It may be that it is the obnoxious thing in its mildest and least repulsive form; but illegitimate and unconstitutional practices get their first footing in that way, namely, by silent approaches and slight deviations from legal modes of procedure. This can only be obviated by adhering to the rule that constitutional provisions for the security of person and property should be liberally construed. A close and literal construction deprives them of half their efficacy, and leads to gradual depreciation of the right, as if it consisted more in sound than in substance. It is the duty of courts to be watchful for the constitutional rights of the citizen, and against any stealthy encroachments thereon."

 

[AKElroy]

Do not fill out any paperwork for 'them.'
Do not talk with them, at all.

If you acknowledge nothing else in this thread, TAKE THIS ADVICE. Sign nothing. Acknowledge nothing. Say nothing. They call, you politely say that your attorney speaks for you & provide the number, then HANG UP THE PHONE. Ignore any accusations, bomb throwing, threats implied or stated as any such statements are designed soley to engage the opening of your mouth. They have an agenda, and they are trolling for stats. RBERNIE is dead on with that call. If you have actually broken any law, make sure your attorney has the information he needs to provide a proper defense. By the way, shame on you if your guilty of something. Well wishes & support for you if your not. Sure sounds like you're clean & being harassed.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Since its just innocent questions, why have the ATF do the following:

1. Call you periodically to ask you what, if any, crimes you have committed with your weapons.

2. Ask you where your weapon is stored just to be sure your storing it safely.

3. Ask you how much ammo you have.

4. Why don't you come in for some fingerprints, just so we can have them on file.

5. How about you let us walk around your house a bit, ask you some innocent questions, just for your safety.

6. How about we stop you periodically in your car, just to be sure your not breaking any laws.

Should we continue this stupidity or do you get the point. If your INNOCENT and not breaking the law then LE should not be questioning you or asking you incriminating questions or harassing you in ANY way. You should be free to go about your business unmolested UNTIL they have probable cause to believe you have broken the law. legally purchasing a few firearms is NOT probably cause to believe you may have broken the law. Seeking the advice of an attorney is NOT an admission of guilt and not answering their ridiculous incriminating questions is a DUTY. Government is corrupt when you fear IT instead of them fearing YOU. They should be afraid of violating your rights and losing their jobs, not scaring YOU into cooperating. And yes I find it appalling how many of you think that just because you didn't do anything wrong you should pander to unconstitutional actions of police. When you trade your rights for security, you will have NEITHER.

BTW. I've worked in LE for the last 17 years.

 

[AKElroy]

They should be afraid of violating your rights and losing their jobs, not scaring YOU into cooperating.

Well said.

 

[AKElroy]

Why not arrange to have your lawyer produce said weapons and be done with it. Where there's smoke....

Careful now. Contributing to an RKBA forum produces a lot of smoke in the eyes of some; maybe the wrong sort sees some of that smoke coming from your house? But hey, you have nothing to hide, so it's come on over, boys, right? Not my house, friend. We obey the law. Until they provide evidence to the contrary, they are not welcome in my home, on my phone or in my mailbox.

 

[numaone]

Why can't you just ignore them? No need for a lawyer. If they show up, close the door on them, if they mail you something, shred it, if they call you, just hang-up. No need to get an expensive lawyer yet.

Or am I missing something?

 

[Phatty]

t165,

I have no doubt that investigators such as 9x23 are tought procedure with the maxim "better safe than sorry" in mind. Any agency may have their own sets of rules and procedures, but just because an agency teaches their agents "always do x" doesn't mean that "x" is constitutionally-required law.

I definitely agree with you that Miranda law is not the clearest line of cases in the world and there is tons of room for honest disagreement. Any law where judges have to start using a "totality of the circumstances" standard is going to be messy.

 

[t165]

Model 649...I only watched the segment you pointed out. The police officer and his comments about the Miranda Warning. He plays a bit of a word game and then goes on to confess the Miranda Warning is a "RIGHT". Basically he said the Miranda Warning is not a right and then in the next sentence says the right to remain silent has always been in the United States Constitution via the 5th Amendment. I say "NO KIDDING"! The Miranda Warning is nothing more than a SCOTUS imposed abbreviated reminder of a suspects rights as outlined in the 5th Amendment...a "RIGHT". Any LEO or prosecutor who ignores this "RIGHT" can watch their case get thrown "right" out of court. Any LEO or prosecutor who ignores a suspects 5th Amendment right to remain silent and continues to harass/question him may very well be served with a court issued restraining order or jail time. I have seen it happen.

I loved being a LEO. Still, the United States Judicial System is not perfect. Innocent people do get prosecuted. I cannot tell anyone what to do if they are suspected of a crime but remaining silent and giving your attorney a chance to protect you seems to be a very good idea to me.

 

[DEANBILT]

AKElroy please clarify. No one comes through my door unless they've got a Publishers Clearing house check. New to THR, new to thread, not to life, my eyes are wide open...

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Keep your mouth shut, listen to your lawyer and God Bless you!

 

[AKElroy]

DEANBILT--First, welcome to the forum. I may have misunderstood your post. When I read the "where there is smoke" comment, I assumed you were refering to the likelyhood that the original post must have done something wrong to draw the attention of the BATF, and that if he had nothing to hide they should be allowed in. I withdraw my comments if that was not your intent. This may help to explain where I am coming from. I do not drink, and "sobriety check points" are back in the news locally. The argument made often in defending this practice is always "well, if you have not been drinking, you should have nothing to worry about. Well, no. I worry about the 4th amendment as much as the 2nd. None of our rights exist in a vaccuum.

 

[DEANBILT]

AKElroy, Thanks and thanks for the clarification. We are indeed on the same page. I am old enough and originally from a NE state which has practically stripped gun owners of their rights. I do everything by the book. Regards.

 

[GRIZ22]

Here are two posts regarding ATFE checking on multiple handgun purchases in FL in 2007. In summary the person did check with a lawyer who explained the law to him and he met with ATFE and showed them the guns. The conversation between the person and ATFE is also listed below.

initial post:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=289218

follow up post:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=289477

Conversation with ATF:

ATF: Are you armed?
ME: Yes, i have a CCW and wearing an ankle rig.

ATF: Ok, thank you for letting us know, just don't reach to your ankle, (chuckle)

ATF: Why do you by the exact same gun multiple times?
ME: I got a great deal on the HK P7s and decided to buy two.

ATF: Do you just collect guns
ME: You can say that

They thanked me for my time and shook my hands and said that if I ever had any gun related questions, to give him a call. And they left.


I guess they never came back as THR member never mentioned it again.

Quote:
Everyone they talk to is not a suspect.

At least not in your mind
__________________


I spent 31 years as a LEO 27 of them as a criminal investigator for a federal agency. I have talked to thousands of people in those 31 years getting information. That's what an investigator does. A few may become witnesses and only a small percentage of them were suspects.

 

[sernv99]

I do have "legal services" I may upgrade thuogh if this escalates.

well, since you listened to the tin-foil hat crowd on here, now you really do have to go through the hassle of getting a lawyer. If you just showed the agents your guns, you wouldn't be bothered by them anymore. All this would have passed now.

 

[Davek1977]

well, since you listened to the tin-foil hat crowd on here, now you really do have to go through the hassle of getting a lawyer. If you just showed the agents your guns, you wouldn't be bothered by them anymore. All this would have passed now.

And what good are rights if you willingly and freely give them up for the sake of mere convieince? Why don't you give up your guns? Your right to free speech? Why not allow the US govt to house troops in your living room if they see fit? You're more than willing to give up your 4th and 5th amendment rights, so why not surrender the first three as well, or the entire Bill Of Rights, or all Constitutional protections, for that matter? It sure would be easier than actually fighting for what you believe in, wouldn't it? The path of least resistence isn't always the wisest path to follow...... Some of us aren't willing to sacrifice what we believe in just because it might be "easier". The easy way really ends up being anything but in many cases

 

[sernv99]

And what good are rights....

and here we go again... why don't you just lock yourself in your house, maybe that will help alleviate your concern about "the man" stepping on your "rights".

 

[Davek1977]

No thanks. I enjoy fresh air, socializing with people, and exercisising my rights IN PUBLIC. I don't need to hide in order to exercise or defend my rights. I'm not a coward or a sheep. I have independence and freedoms I value. I feel sorry for you if you don't, and if living in a box is an option for you. its not for me. My rights as a citizen are mine, no matter where I travel in this naiton of ours. I have no need to hide merely to exercise the same rights as any American has, nor should I be intimidateed by a badge into merely cooperating and taking the path of least resistence. You can call it paranoid, but I call it being an American..... you might want to try being one someday, and see how it makes you feel. It makes me feel proud to exercise the rights so many have died defending. If you want to disregard them, fine, do things your way. Just don't expectg a lot of company at the "strip my rights" convention, because most of us value them almost as much as life itself.

 

[Rockwell1]

Davek1977

Be advised that a few of our members are actually brady trolls it is highly likely you've recently had a run-in with one of them. I'll let you guess which one

 

[runrabbitrun]

Yep and usually thread lock is next.

Hey mods, haven't you guys seen the pattern here yet?
The trick is to get the thread locked so that the discussion can't continue.
The continuation of the discussion would lead to people learning more about their rights.

If I may suggest.
PLEASE, instead of locking the thread,
how about you mods REMOVE the people's post who are only here to inflame and 'bait' the rest of us
into responding in kind to the name calling. (i.e. tin foil hat crowd)...
This 'baiting' is designed to get the thread locked,
so we can't become more enlightened about our rights in situations like this.

Please mods and others.
Don't take the bait and recognize the pattern here.

 

[sernv99]

I have no need to hide merely to exercise the same rights as any American has, nor should I be intimidateed by a badge into merely cooperating and taking the path of least resistence

now here comes the fed/cop bashing...

but I call it being an American..... you might want to try being one someday you seem to be very un-American with your bashing of the American gov't. You do know the powers to be were elected democratically by the people, yet you seem to have a hard time understanding that.


It makes me feel proud to exercise the rights so many have died defending so having the US gov't station US troops in your living room would be a good thing then, right? you seem to think otherwise given your previous statement on this matter. Make up your mind.

Be advised that a few of our members are actually brady trolls it is highly likely you've recently had a run-in with one of them. also be advised there are a few of our members here who claim to be "Americans" yet they bash anything associated with this democratically elected gov't, as well as the US military.

 

[Rockwell1]

I don’t understand why so many people on this forum are so vehemently against the exercise of our rights.

How does it negatively affect you that I choose to assert my rights? If this guy goes ahead and cooperates and finds out the hard way that yes, they really were looking to put him in jail are those of you telling him to waive his rights going to pay for his legal fees? How about the upkeep of his family? What do you lose by his insistence on protecting himself? So I’m wearing a “tinfoil hat” ( I bet Jefferson had one just like it) how does that hurt you?

Bottom line, if the OP wants to hire James Duane himself and he’s not asking you to pay for it respect his decision and BUTT OUT

as well as the US military.

I did my time, I defy you to find a single post in which I "bash" the government, the police or the army. I've even taken a poster or two to task for engaging in such "bashing"

 

[sernv99]

If this guy goes ahead and cooperates and finds out the hard way that yes, they really were looking to put him in jail get over it, you think every fed out there wants to waste their time putting all Americans in jail. Yeah, if he did something illegal, he should pay the price. If not, he won't see the inside of a cell.

Bottom line, if the OP wants to hire James Duane himself and he’s not asking you to pay for it respect his decision and BUTT OUT he had to go that route because he listened to folks like you.

I did my time, I defy you to find a single post in which I "bash" the government, the police or the army. I've even taken a poster or two to task for engaging in such "bashing" reread my posting again. Where was I qouting you about you bashing the military?