Cooper's "Lupara" for Home Defense

[telecaster1981]

Hey Guys,

Recently, I've been checking out 20" SxS "coach" guns with the intention of arming my soon-to-be wife with one when I'm away on business. She has almost no experience with firearms right now, but I plan to fix that. In the mean time, she needs a home defense weapon that's easy to use and reliable. I've decided on the "Lupara" concept for a few reasons.

1.) She'll know exactly how many shots she's got to work with.

2.) There's no risk of "short stroking" as with a pump.

3.) Reloading is SIMPLE

4.) Short and fast handling

5.) Easier to hit targets with than a pistol of some sort.

6.) She can practice with the new Aguila Mini Shells with no reliability
issues.

Now, my question: Jeff Cooper thought a SxS Home Defense shotgun should have exposed hammers since it can be left loaded without stressing the hammer springs. My concern is that having to cock the hammers will be one more variable in play with my newbie wife. It seems as if most of the SxS shotguns with exposed hammers also have automatic safeties which could be confusing for her in the middle of the night, coming out of deep sleep. So, I ask, how much of an issue is deterioration of the firing springs in a hammerless shotgun? Not to question Jeff Cooper's wisdom, but I have to wonder if spring deterioration is real or theoretical. Afterall, any automatic or pump will have stressed springs up until the time the trigger is pulled. Perhaps the difference lies in the qualities of flat vs. coil springs? Anyway, let me know what you think. Thanks!
Ben

 

[pauli]

if it were me... no safety, no hammers.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Greetings. This topic has been covered a couple times, and you might find some good info by using out Search engine. Here's a thread I started a while back:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=94866&highlight=coach

Not at all saying that you can't start a new thread on it though, and I really like this topic *grin*. I've liked luparas ever since I saw them in Mel Tappan's "Survival Guns", and that was back when I barely knew a .22 from a 12ga, but I knew what looked cool.

I've argued this point with folks on the board, but I still think that a hammerless coach-gun could be a good piece for folks who honestly aren't going to spend a whole lot of time training with a gun. (No, I'm not falling into the whole "shotgun clears the whole room" myth). Requires little mechanical ability, very compact, wide range of loads usable, and more accurate for a beginner than a handgun.

Many have suggested that a Hi-Point 9mm carbine would also be a great choice, and I concede that such is definitely a good option to consider. Wanted to buy one at the SAXET gunshow today, but nary one for sale.

-MV (grabs bowl of popcorn, sits back to enjoy thread on a very cool topic: lupara)

 

[telecaster1981]

Hey Matthew!

Thanks for the link to the coach gun/HD discussion. That's just about what I was looking for! Sounds to me like you and I have very similar ideas concerning what a home defense weapon should be. Interestingly, I had considered the M1 Carbine as well. I grew up with an M1 in my hands, and I think they're about perfect for any young/small shooter. I'm also not ruling out the M1 for a later date, but I want to get my fiance started off with a shotgun while she learns how to operate other types of firearms and work on shot placement. The KISS method always rings true for me and our Lupara should do the trick. Point, pull the trigger, eliminate bad guy.

One thing I hadn't considered yet was that she may have to de-cock the hammers, which could be a problem for the inexperienced. I guess I just assumed she'd shoot at something no matter what. I'm gonna have to go with the hammerless. That doesn't mean I want this thread to end...keep the advice coming because I'm still open to suggestion.

Ben

PS- I just had an interesting idea. Perhaps perfection would be a SxS shotgun with a relatively long, double action trigger that fires both barrels (not at the same time) and has bobbed hammers like those found on DAO revolvers. Then, there's no need for a safety and no worries about spring failure.

 

[pauli]

i really don't think there's any legitimate worry about spring failure, regardless.

 

[BozemanMT]

I agree, in a modern gun it's unlikely for them to go off
I do agree the only safety should be between your ears. I also think you should think 12ga. The adrenilin will be pumping, etc, you'll never feel the recoil. Why not a semi-auto and just keep it loaded, keep pulling the trigger? a lot more shots.
I dunno, 2 shots seems darn "risky"

i guess it's the same theory behind a revolver, just pull the trigger.

 

[ArmedBear]

Jeff Cooper was paid by the word.

Still, a decent SxS is an easy-to-understand, reliable gun. A crappy one doesn't open or shut too easily, though.

I've always figured that a homeowner with a SxS is about the most intimidating thing to a burglar, though. A coach gun makes a statement. That statement is, "I'm a crazy redneck and I WILL shoot you."

 

[Dr.Rob]

a 20 inch waspish English shotgun with a skinny forearm is not the same as a heavy Winchester model 24 when it comes to recoil and manageability.

Weight does make a difference.While exposed hammers are cool on cowboy guns, concealed hammers and an auto safety aren't a big deal... you just train train train to push it off every time those barrels come up to shoot.

Clays/skeet is great practice for this.

 

[BigG]

Spring fatigue -

I've got a Springfield hammerless 12 ga SxS with 20" bbls that looks to be a factory job with mid and front beads.

It has remained cocked since 1905 or so (patent date), except when shooting, with no spring fatigue, yet.

 

[El Tejon]

Armed, I will overlook your heresy.

Whatever the platform, shotgun, revolver, Mall Ninja "Captain Tactical Special" ubercarbine, etc., the only answer is software. The more time she spends with the weapon, the better. Maybe check out a class for her--cheap insurance.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

PS- I just had an interesting idea. Perhaps perfection would be a SxS shotgun with a relatively long, double action trigger that fires both barrels (not at the same time) and has bobbed hammers like those found on DAO revolvers. Then, there's no need for a safety and no worries about spring failure.

That's an incredibly cool idea......... but:


I don't see a company jumping on the idea at this point. Mossberg tried making pump-actions with a DA trigger a while back, don't think those sold so well.

If coach guns really caught on in a big way, like if more and more Katrina-type events occurred and more non-gunny homeowners wanted the simplest device possible, your idea would be interesting.

In the meantime, I'd say the hammerless sXs sounds best for what you're looking for. I'll leave ammo issues to those with far more shotgun experience than I.

The semi-auto 20ga, Hi-Point 9mm carbine, and M1 Carbine also seem to fall in the good column for your situation. I know some folks like the Bantam-sized pumps, but my personal bias is that a pump shotgun is not a terribly intuitive piece of gear, but maybe that's just because I haven't really warmed to the ones I've tried.

-MV

 

[Fred Fuller]

My mom is not a 'gun person' in spite of my lifelong efforts- apparently she is a 'carrier' for the gene but is not effected herself by the malady. Even so, she was a country girl in the old style growing up, and her dad is responsible for the gunny genes I carry. For the longest time, her house gun has been a Sears- labeled 311 20 ga. double cut down to 18.5" barrels and a 12" LOP stock. Fortunately she never had to use it save in practice.

But it was getting to be too much for her, a while back she complained that her .38 revolver was too much and we got her a S&W 317 .22LR with an action job from our family wizard. I knew the shotgun would be an issue too so we got her a 9mm carbine to replace that, and she likes it a lot.

Obviously I see nothing wrong with a good short double gun for HD use. I do think there are better platforms available for most people in ordinary circumstances, but tools vary with need, circumstance and the user. "Two for sure" beats a lot of hands in cards and otherwise.

Those Aguila Minishells aren't really brand new, they've been around a while. But they are a great idea for a double gun at close quarters, the duplex buckshot loads (a mix of 7 #4 buck and 4 #1 buck pellets) and the slugs ought to do well for recoil shy shooters in a 12 ga. double.

lpl/nc

 

[ArmedBear]

Armed, I will overlook your heresy.

Whatever the platform, shotgun, revolver, Mall Ninja "Captain Tactical Special" ubercarbine, etc., the only answer is software. The more time she spends with the weapon, the better. Maybe check out a class for her--cheap insurance.

Personally, I find the probability of someone with a little practice "short shucking" a 2 3/4" shell in a well-maintained pump shotgun, loaded with shells that it likes, to be lower than the probability of someone fumbling while trying to load a SxS and ending up with shells on the ground.

With ejectors, you could easily unload the gun while checking to see if it's loaded, and with extractors, reloads are more of a hassle.

Recoil-operated SST guns do fail. Mechanical triggers not so much. Double triggers are more reliable, but again more fumble-prone.

WRT Cooper, he insisted that handgun bullets don't expand. Empirical evidence does not support this. This is a pretty big deal, really. Did he REALLY know what he was talking about, enough for you to stake your life on it?

Just some thoughts. Nothing wrong with a SxS. Nothing in the world. But I don't think that they require less training or practice than any other sort of shotgun.

 

[Jeff Timm]

Armed Bear commented: "WRT Cooper, he insisted that handgun bullets don't expand. Empirical evidence does not support this. This is a pretty big deal, really. Did he REALLY know what he was talking about, enough for you to stake your life on it?"

Maybe in the last twenty years or so, more handgun bullets have been designed which often expand. But back in the day, reliable expansion was non-existant. From whence comes the expression, "I know a .45 isn't going to shrink."

Geoff
Who blames the Democrat controlled schools for the current lack of either manners or learning. :banghead:

 

[ArmedBear]

Okay. In the interest of seeming "educated" I'll pretend that bullets didn't expand 40 years ago, either.

And in the interest of having "manners" I'll suggest that people stake their very lives on the ramblings of someone who has been shown to be wrong, and at best whose conclusions are outdated.

Bear
Who didn't attend public schools and prefers critical thinking and evidence to hero-worship.

P.S. The point of this thread was to ascertain whether an open-hammer SxS is the best choice for HD.

 

[scout26]

The point of this thread was to ascertain whether an open-hammer SxS is the best choice for HD.

I think the only person who can answer that question is the lady in question.

I recommend taking the lady to your local range, with a variety of firearms (what you don't own,see if you can beg, borrow or rent, 12 ga, 20 ga, revolvers, semi-auto pistols, carbines, etc.) and find out what she likes/is comfortable with. Explain the pro's and con's of each one as it relates to HD and her situation. (Overpeneration issues, reloading issues, etc.) This is assuming that she is already somewhat familiar with firearms and has done some shooting previously.

Any particular reason why when it comes to discussing women and firearms, we all seem to fall into neanderthal mode of "Weemens toooo dumb to be operatin' anythin' that there compli-technical. Weese need to pick out what gun the lil woman 'ull be totin' " Yet they seem to to be able to operate heavy equipment (Bulldozers, etc), drive cars, trucks and semi's, use, program and repair computers, become brain surgeons, nuclear phyiscists, and astronauts ??? But give them a firearm and they suddenly are no smarter then preschoolers ??

Hopefully Pax will be along shortly to send us all to our rooms, without supper.

 

[ArmedBear]

My wife found an 870 to be quite easy to operate. Mine doesn't exactly fit her, but operation was easy enough.

Like you said, scout, only the shooter can (or should) decide.

(And that was my original point about Cooper's opinions, really. There's no reason to follow them blindly, especially if they contradict one's own experience and/or knowledge.)

 

[pax]

scout26 ~

Naw, I figure one of last year's rants should hold y'all for awhile yet.

pax

 

[TexasRifleman]

Not to question Jeff Cooper's wisdom.....

The more I read from him the more convinced I am that that's EXACTLY what we should be doing.

How many metallurgists have popped up over the years with the answer to this. It's always the same answer, modern spring steels wear more from cycling than continued compression.

But since it comes from Cooper, some people think "Gee, maybe he's right".

Why?

 

[ArmedBear]

The more I read from him the more convinced I am that that's EXACTLY what we should be doing.

How many metallurgists have popped up over the years with the answer to this. It's always the same answer, modern spring steels wear more from cycling than continued compression.

But since it comes from Cooper, some people think "Gee, maybe he's right".

Why?

A long, long time ago, a man who seemed pretty smart said that a large rock would fall faster than a small rock, in proportion to its weight. No one tested this, despite it being very easy to test. After 2000 years of voluntary stupidity on the part of the entire human race, Galileo finally tested what Aristotle had said, proved it wrong, and was fired from his job as a professor for it.

Then, when Galileo showed how the earth revolved around the sun, the Catholic Church threatened him with torture, then kept him under house arrest until he died a sick, blind old man -- still publishing, though.

That was 500 years ago. You'd think that, by now, more people would learn. But no, they don't.

If Cooper wrote that Wildebeest can fly, far too many people would believe him.

 

[esldude]

I would strongly suggest a 9mm carbine for someone not well acquainted with firearms. Very little recoil, muzzle blast, and a nice handy size. Makes it very unintimidating. I have seen women and young people just take to these far better. The manual of arms isn't too much for them if they aren't afraid of thing.

Now after that, some women come to love shooting. And can later do quite well with something like a 20 gauge shotgun. Others don't, but can still function well with the carbine.

Not that I disagree with idea of a SxS being excellent in this role. Just that other considerations may over rule that choice with someone not handgun savvy.

 

[c_yeager]

i really don't think there's any legitimate worry about spring failure, regardless.

I agree.

Virtually all of the benefits of the double gun could also be had with virtually any pistol or semiauto rifle, without any of the drawbacks.

The best way for her to deal with ammo capacity is to give her enough of it that it doesnt matter.

For example, which of these qualifications would not be fullfilled with an AK-47:

1.) She'll know exactly how many shots she's got to work with.

2.) There's no risk of "short stroking" as with a pump.

3.) Reloading is SIMPLE

4.) Short and fast handling

5.) Easier to hit targets with than a pistol of some sort.

6.) She can practice with the new Aguila Mini Shells with no reliability
issues.

Well, there is #1, but its a lot better to have more ammunition than you know what to do with than have an easy number to count to. And number six goes away completely since 7.62x39 is cheaper than shotgun ammo and easier on the shoulder.

I really think that the concept of "simplicity of operation" is highly overrated. What are you saying about a person that doesnt have the intillectual ability to handle a weapon that we can train any highschool dropout to effectively operate? I assure you that your wife to be is FULLY capable of handling virtually any small arm with only a minimal amount of training. If she chooses not to learn how to do so, then maybe she doesnt really want to have a gun, and forcing one into her hands wont accomplish anything.

 

[ArmedBear]

WRT ammo and reloads...

A standard 870 with a 4+1 magazine can be topped off easily. If you fumble and drop the extra round, you have whatever's left. Why count? Just stuff in another round. And none of that matters unless you REALLY need more than 5 rounds of 00 Buck.

If you fumble the rounds you're loading into a break action, you have an unloaded gun. What are the chances of dropping a round or two in a high-stress situation? 50%? 75%? Unless you are a CAS competitor...

Problem 2: when you want to reload your SxS, where is the ammo? In a box in the garage? On the stock? More fumbling. Better to have 5 to 9 rounds in the GUN with EXTRA on the buttstock. You're not going to be wearing your 25 round duck-hunting belt to bed.

If I have a SxS, I figure I have 2 shots. That's it. Anything else is unrealistic when an assailant is less than 10 feet from me!

If the threat of being shot, or 2 rounds of buckshot, don't stop someone who is inside my house, he's going to be on me a LOT faster than I can reload.

 

[pezo]

she need's a good .357 magnum revolver...... I love shotguns, now ecspecially because I got a new one. but I find to unweildly for novice. edited several times because I forgot how to post a picture!!!!!!!

 

[telecaster1981]

My main question was the spring deterioration, which is apparently not a concern at all. What I failed to mention is that my fiance will have PLENTY of other guns to choose from once she's more experienced. The main reason I'm looking into the SxS is because she likes the idea of a shotgun but doesn't like loading tubular magazines, and I don't either. I've had her out shooting before...pistols, rifles, and shotguns...she preferred the shotgun since it was easier to hit her target and because of the obvious damage to whatever is downrange. The SxS will be a good start for her and an invaluable tool for us around the farm. I've got firearms ready to go in every corner of the house (almost) and she wants to learn how to use them all. Once she does, she'll have some fine options should someone break in...

AK-47
M1 Carbine (with 30rd M2 mags)
Colt Detective Special
CZ52
M1 Garand
Remington 1100
FN49
....plus some others, mainly .22lr and military bolt actions...less desirable in a defense situation.

Also, I'm not implying that she doesn't have the capability to operate all these others. I just don't understand why simplicity is such a bad thing. Seems like some of you think I'm knocking her intellectual capacity, but then you're concerned about her "fumbling" shotgun shells...so she's certainly not dumb because she's a woman, but probably clumsy? I'm choosing the SxS because of its inherent reliability, stopping power, pointability, and improved chances of hitting a kill zone on the first shot. Ease of use just happens to be a perk. There may be better options, but the SxS is a good option for her in addition to my others.