Dealers selling to "unsavory" characters

[Tipro]

Bear in mind that I did mention in #2 that appearances can be decieving. The sales I have refused were to individuals who made me uncomfortable. I've seen and known many "unsavory characters" in 3 piece suits.

I am in no way implying that it is ok to be prejudicial, however, it's hard for me to believe that no one has denied a sale because of political correctness.

I for one think that what you're doing is just fine. It's your weapon, and you are free to choose whom you sell to. You're not taking away anyone's 2A rights; you're not saying "thou shalt not have a firearm," just "thou shalt not have my firearm." We often are forced to make character judgments, whether we will trust someone we don't know, and you should feel fully justified in your decision not to sell to someone that you don't trust.

Now, if I was the one selling the weapon, I would never make a blanket rule like "no selling to Arabs." But that doesn't seem to be what you're doing.

 

[robb01]

I have no problem who they sell to as long as they pass a background check

 

[Ranger30-06]

Being in the Philly/Camden area, looks can be deceiving, but they usually aren't. In the area I live in, it's pretty easy to tell what part of the area your from, and if your up to no good. The gun shop I frequent sees a little of both, and they say that it's not so much how they dress, but how they talk to you. If they can't speak much if any English, or show up with a "gimme" attitude, they won't sell to them. If, on the other hand, they are dressed rap style, but are polite and interested in being safe, they have no problem selling to them.

Your mouth says a lot more about you than your looks... And if some prison thug really wanted a gun, there's a thousand of them on every street in downtown Camden. The last place they'd go is the gun store.

 

[Flopsweat]

Wow, somehow this is denying rights? Discrimination? Some people here have a really twisted idea of how society is supposed to work.

You have the right to dress, talk and act any way you want as long as you're not harming anyone. I have the right to think whatever I want of you. You are not 5 years old. You know that what you're doing is going to have an effect. If you dress like you're poor or have bad fashion sense, you'll barely know I noticed. Dress like a gang-banger and you'll find little sympathy from me. You don't get to dress like a felon and then feel all put out because people think you might actually be one. I have no obligation to date a woman who looks like she's been passed around like a joint at a Grateful Dead concert. Nor am I obliged to sell a gun to someone who looks like they'll be making their next withdrawal from the cash register and patrons of the nearest 7-11. If you look like a mental patient, a junkie or a suicide bomber, same deal.

Dress any way you want. If I have the time to get to know you, we may become friends. If I don't, I'm going to go with the way you look and act. I'll be decent about it, but that's a far cry from trusting you.

 

[Bubbles]

I am a legal citizen of the US and have no criminal record. I have the right enumerated constitutionally to keep and bear arms . You only have the right to rufuse to sell me a gun if i cannot pass the background check and you are a FFL.

Nope, at the initial interview when we got our license, the ATF made it very clear that we could refuse a transfer or sale for any reason.

 

[Nushif]

You have the right to dress, talk and act any way you want as long as you're not harming anyone. I have the right to think whatever I want of you. You are not 5 years old. You know that what you're doing is going to have an effect. If you dress like you're poor or have bad fashion sense, you'll barely know I noticed. Dress like a gang-banger and you'll find little sympathy from me. You don't get to dress like a felon and then feel all put out because people think you might actually be one. I have no obligation to date a woman who looks like she's been passed around like a joint at a Grateful Dead concert. Nor am I obliged to sell a gun to someone who looks like they'll be making their next withdrawal from the cash register and patrons of the nearest 7-11. If you look like a mental patient, a junkie or a suicide bomber, same deal.

The problem isn't about selling firearms to people like that.

Continuously people are claming that one should deal with it if one "looks like a felon" or "dresses like a gangbanger."
But there is no real value to that! How does a felon dress? Would you sell to a felon who forgot to put on his "Felon Uniform" that day? How about a gangbanger? Is it dress or speech that makes a gangbanger? Even better ... Suicide bomber uniform. Tell me how it looks.
Can someone tell me what the "Felon Uniform" is? How about the "Gangbanger Uniform?" And how does this differentitate itself from inner city dress?

I don't think this is about denying rights. This is about presuming guilt of a felony in someone whose pants we deem too low, or whose speech isn't properly midwestern. This has nothing to do with rights and everything to do with assuming criminality ... Lemme reiterate ... ASSUMING CRIMINALITY because we disagree with what? The way someone looks? Where they were born? The color of their skin and their ethnicity?

 

[pockets]

Ya know, it's funny.....When I read the word 'felon', I tend to think of 3-piece suits and people like Bernie Madoff.

.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

BATF may let you refuse anyone, but in a a lawsuit, a jury may not see it like the BATF. If you can't articulate WHY you are refusing sale/service, you may end up losing, and the way someone dresses or looks may not constitute a VALID reason for refusal. Discriminate recklessly at your own risk. I don't like tatoos or nose rings much, but I put up with them, quietly. It's called allowing OTHERS their freedom as long as it doesn't encroach on mine.

 

[M-Cameron]

BATF may let you refuse anyone, but in a a lawsuit, a jury may not see it like the BATF. If you can't articulate WHY you are refusing sale/service, you may end up losing, and the way someone dresses or looks may not constitute a VALID reason for refusal. Discriminate recklessly at your own risk. I don't like tatoos or nose rings much, but I put up with them, quietly. It's called allowing OTHERS their freedom as long as it doesn't encroach on mine.

i dont believe there is any law requiring you to state WHY you are refusing someone service.......if i simply dont like you, for whatever reason, i dont have to sell anything to you......


i believe its only when you issue blanket statements like "i wont sell to XXXX ethnic group,XXXX religious group, XXXX sexual orientation, ect" that you run into the possibility of getting into trouble....

 

[evan price]

Sell to who you want to sell to.

Once they did away with hoop skirts, corsets, johdpurs and powdered wigs it got so hard to tell apart the lower class scum from their noble betters. It's getting to be that I have to walk around with my riding crop and polo boots just to get service.

Oh the horrors!

 

[Madcap_Magician]

I don't judge based on appearance, but any excuses as to why you don't have a driver's license and permit to carry/purchase (required in my state) but will pay me more because you forgot are a quick ticket to me not selling you a gun. It's happened...

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

"i dont believe there is any law requiring you to state WHY you are refusing someone service.......if i simply dont like you "............................................................................................................. Well, as long as you don't believe it, I'm sure you have nothing to worry about.

 

[Nushif]

I don't judge based on appearance, but any excuses as to why you don't have a driver's license and permit to carry/purchase (required in my state) but will pay me more because you forgot are a quick ticket to me not selling you a gun.

Nobody is saying that is a bad thing. That is distinctly illegal. What people are rightly worried about is denying sales or well ... ASSUMING A FELON based on the shave, height of the pants, head covering, color of skin, accent, and whatnot.
This isn't about an obvious illegality.
This is about "shady characters" (read: People I don't like) not being sold guns. And that is counter to everything we keep arguing here about these rights that are inalienable. Folks seem to feel free to not sell to someone because others pants aren't where they'd put them or because they have tats or piercings, but don't seem to stop saying they believe in equality under the law.
Because at that point ... They're not acting the part. They're assuming again ... CRIMINALITY based on their own preferences for looking some way or the other.

 

[Yoda]

Call me a snitch....

I have, at a gun show in Tallahassee, informed a dealer that a group of young men who were examining his stocks had just been on their phones, describing in detail what they were looking at to someone who clearly was not there but who also had a very particular interest in what these guys brought.

Maybe they were just talking to friends who were gun enthusiasts and were trying to help their friends get a good deal. But overall, it look a lot more like they were talking to fellow gang members than to gun enthusiasts.

The lady behind the table thanked me. She said she had also been watching them and had concerns. I don't know how she resolved those concerns.

- - - Yoda

====================

 

[fallout mike]

Yoda, so in your opinion they were making a, straw purchase for fellow gang bangers instead of talking to knowledgeable friends, family, etc about which gun they should purchase or if it is a good price. Really? You think criminals pay gun show prices for guns? They can buy nearly any stolen gun on the street for $100.

 

[M-Cameron]

Well, as long as you don't believe it, I'm sure you have nothing to worry about.

ill tell you what.....why dont you post the law that says that i have to have a "valid reason" refuse anyone service.....because ide sure like to see it.

 

[Agsalaska]

i dont believe there is any law requiring you to state WHY you are refusing someone service.......if i simply dont like you, for whatever reason, i dont have to sell anything to you......


i believe its only when you issue blanket statements like "i wont sell to XXXX ethnic group,XXXX religious group, XXXX sexual orientation, ect" that you run into the possibility of getting into trouble....

OK. There is no law saying that you have to say WHY you refused service. You can always just plead guilty and face the consequences. Or you can explain WHY you refused service and hope it holds up in a court of law. But you are right, there is no law that forces you to properly defend yourself.

Here is the problem with the 'i didnt make a blanket rule about race, age, ethnicity' defense. You dont have to say it or set a rule to be found guilty of it. Example

You are running your shop on a Thursday and Mohammed comes in wearing traditional Arab dress looking for a gun. He doesnt like wearing it. He hoped when his family moved to the US when he was 12 that he would never have to wear it again. But there is a traditional Arab celebration at the community center they have rented that night, and he has to go. He is even more pissed they wont have any beer. He is not in the best mood but decided to finally come by and get that shotgun because the neighbor's house was broken into again. You already are suspicious of him because of some recent issues in your area, and he is in a bad mood. You refuse to sell him the shotgun. He is now even more upset and goes to the event. He tells his buddies, also pissed about what they are wearing, and one of them happened to marry the sister of an attorney. They decide to go to your shop that weekend wearing the same clothes just to see what happens. In the meantime your two employees witinessed you refusing service. One of them is an Iraq vet and has his own opinions. THe other wishes he was an Iraq vet and wants to show he is tough. So you go fishing that weekend and leave the store to your two employees. The arab guys come in and are refused service, rather rudely, by either or both of your employees.

Now you have a problem. The arabs, all American citizens who have never spent more than a night in jail, call the brother in law and file a lawsuit. Whats your defense? I never set a rule about arabs? Really because you have shown a clear pattern of refusing service to anyone dressed in traditional Arab attire. Not only you but your employees as well. Did you sell a gun to an Arab in traditional dress during the same time period. No. Do you think you can defend that? Well, to your point, there is no law saying that you HAVE to explain why you refused service. But you might want to think of something if you care about your livelihood.

 

[Flopsweat]

The problem isn't about selling firearms to people like that.

Actually, that is the subject of this thread. I won't sell a gun to someone I don't trust. If I have time to get to know you, I'll decide based on that. If not, I'm going by appearance and mannerisms. There is nothing wrong with that. Your ethnic background, sexual orientation, religion and gender mean nothing to me. It's how you present yourself that is important. Dress is only a part of it, but as I mentioned before, it's part of a first impression.

Continuously people are claming that one should deal with it if one "looks like a felon" or "dresses like a gangbanger."
But there is no real value to that! How does a felon dress? Would you sell to a felon who forgot to put on his "Felon Uniform" that day? How about a gangbanger? Is it dress or speech that makes a gangbanger? Even better ... Suicide bomber uniform. Tell me how it looks.
Can someone tell me what the "Felon Uniform" is? How about the "Gangbanger Uniform?" And how does this differentitate itself from inner city dress?

With all due respect, I'm sure you know what gang members look like. This isn't high school debate class.

...The color of their skin and their ethnicity?

That is way out of line.

Recap.

Title of thread: "Dealers selling to 'unsavory' characters".
Site name: The High Road.​

Think on that a bit. And lay off the unfounded accusations.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

M-Cameron, the "laws" in question are, I believe, called torts. They involve previous legal judgments made over similar cases, and provide the basis for equality and justice under the laws set forth by the constitution (federal and state). To assume you don't have to answer for discriminating against someone else, without due cause, may be reckless, and in some cses, costly. Proceed to do so at your own risk. It is much easier to justify fair and equal treatment than discriminatory treatment. Agsalaska put it very well.

 

[JShirley]

Okay, I can't see this going anyplace good from here. It's been discussed. People have changed their opinions, or not.