Dealers selling to "unsavory" characters

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"This sounds like the Anti-gun people talking. Why would you take someone's 2 nd amendement rights away from them if it IS LEGAL for them to own a firearm???"

"Are YOU some sort of 2nd admendement basher that thinks we should have MORE gun laws based on color of skin, looks or religion????"

Jim


well said Jim
 
i wear blue jeans, work boots and sometimes offensive t-shirts. (in some folks eyes they might be anyway)
i shave my head (which does mean i wear a "do-rag" occasionally), ride a Harley, have the 2nd ammendment tattoed on my right forearm for all to see, work out with local LE at a MMA gym, and dont really care what the GP thinks about my appearance...its just me. yet i have a clean record, a permit to carry and suprise suprise, i own my own business. would my looks lead you to think i was "shady"? would you NOT sell me a gun? fine by me, i'll take my business elsewhere and spend my hard earned money.
 
Can't judge a book by it's cover. Radicals send others to buy their guns for them
 
Agsalaska said:
So say he refuses to sell a gun and his reasoning is he is young, dressed like a gangster, talked funny, had an inner city address, and I used to work in a prison so I have a sense about these things. He might get away with it once. But if he did it twice, to two people that knew each other?.? Would you want to defend that in today's court. You would not stand a chance.
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It seems you did not read my reply entirely. What I said was to talk to the customer and get a feel for who he/she/it is. This way you can not only go past the initial reaction due to his look/accent/whatever but also help him choose the right firearm and maybe even turn this sale in a service (suggest courses, how to handle it in a family setup, etc). And sometimes even get a really interesting story in the process.

That nervous filthy Arab-looking guy could be a university professor who was working on his lawn all day and wants something to protect his wife and kids. Maybe he walked in thinking on a pistol and, once you understand his situation, may be better served with a shotgun.

Also, if a nicely dressed guy walks in and acts like an ass demanding you to drop what you are doing to sell a gun really should be doing business somewhere else.

Would you sell a pistol to someone who starts aiming it at everyone on the store?

IMHO, the difference between Wal-Mart and a specialized gun/archery/electronics/sports/sex store is that in the latter you are less concerned in doing a quick sale and more concerned about using your knowledge to provide the customer with the best solution, building a relationship in the process. That has nothing to do with your look.

FYI, owner of the place I buy my tennis/running shoes will talk to you and look at your feet and do some other crap before suggesting a shoe. And then you have to walk on the store while he goes back and feels the shoes and ask you questions. I have seen him turning people away because they were asses or just wanted a $300+ sneaker because it was the hip shoe of the week.
 
3. Arabic garb reminds me of the Shriners, most of whom are responsible citizens. I was also brainwashed by the Sinbad movies into believing there are Arab heroes as well as Arab villians.
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FWIW 99.9% of the time when you see someone in the US wearing a turban he is not Arabic and is not Muslim. He is of the Sikh faith and is likely from India - or the UK which has the second-highest Sikh population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh

In my 57+ years travelling the globe I have very rarely seen men from the Middle East dressed in so-called traditional clothing outside their native lands, and even that is rare. Mostly they dress as does the rest of the world. Look at the CNN news coverage of what's happening in Syria or Lybia. See any turbans?

So if you need to judge the book by it's cover, at least know something about the cover. :scrutiny:
 
I've many times refused to sell based upon a personal decision on my part and a couple of times refused a sale based upon very informal requests by a couple different major southwestern cities' municipal police. Till it leaves my hands, it's mine and I get to decide whether I want the potential buyer to have it or not. Each of these decisions has been based upon conduct and/or conversation and never appearance - not once!

Is it discrimination? Absolutely.
 
I am a legal citizen of the US and have no criminal record. I have the right enumerated constitutionally to keep and bear arms . You only have the right to rufuse to sell me a gun if i cannot pass the background check and you are a FFL.
 
If someone gives you a bad vibe, then don't sell to them. It's that simple. For me, while appearances can make a first impression, I don't tend to judge before talking to the person a bit first.

As for the posts talking about denying someone their rights... really? There's no right to buy enumerated in the Constitution. That's like saying getting infracted on a message board is denying your freedom of speech.
 
I think the op is on to a great idea. That should be part of the background check. After you are approved they should get to see you via webcam and ask you a few questions maybe before they decide if you should have the gun or not. Atta way to come up with a great idea man. Keep up the good work.
 
I forgot to mention "Doomsday Preppers" as well. Why not:scrutiny:

Make sure you keep track of the end of the world on the Cheaper than Dirt catalogs. They keep a running total of days left.
 
I am a legal citizen of the US and have no criminal record. I have the right enumerated constitutionally to keep and bear arms . You only have the right to rufuse to sell me a gun if i cannot pass the background check and you are a FFL.
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:scrutiny:
It appears that you are not a very well informed citizen.
 
I have been to gun shows where dealers will put up a sign that says speak English or go to another table.
I assume that if you are an american you can speak the language.
 
I have been to gun shows where dealers will put up a sign that says speak English or go to another table.
I assume that if you are an american you can speak the language.
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At least I can see a reason for that one, as you don't know if the folks on the other side of the table are setting up a straw purchase if you can't understand what they're saying.
 
xfyrfiter said:
I am a legal citizen of the US and have no criminal record. I have the right enumerated constitutionally to keep and bear arms . You only have the right to rufuse to sell me a gun if i cannot pass the background check and you are a FFL.
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Actually, I have the right to refuse a sale to anyone for any reason,or as far as that goes, NO reason.

I have only refused one single solitary sale in the nearly eight years of having my FFL.

A kid ( well young adult really but.... ) approached my table and looked at a CZ-82 I had.

Looked it over, asked a couple questions and said he would take it.

The guy filled out the 4473, handed it to me along with his DL and Purchase permit.

I start through the form and see the written address is different than his DL, I then see that his Purchase permit has yet another address. Three forms and three addresses. I pointed this out and said, "and I suppose you want to write a check??"

He replied in the affirmative and I asked which address it had, when he told me it was a DIFFERENT address yet, I just told him I cant do this, sorry..............really ticked the guy off and I still dont think he understands what the problem was.

For what its worth, I ended that weekend without a single sale.
 
Redlg155 said:
3. A person in traditional arabic garb? Remove the arabic clothing and beard...does your opinion change?

4. Have you ever see a dealer refuse to sell, even though they could have passed the background check?
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No, I draw the line at naked, shaven guys.

Seriously, though, a friend of mine was almost refused a gun because he is not a citizen (he is a legal, permanent resident, married to a citizen).

Admittedly, this was by a clerk who may have been unschooled, but who was also somewhat rude to my friend (who, by the way is British and a retired policeman who, in his job was among the few authorized to carry).

Some sellers have the right to refuse. I would think that most retailers would risk opening themselves up to a discrimination lawsuit.

Lost Sheep
 
Raubvogel-I agree with you. It is always important to talk to your customers to get a good feel for them. Not only does it help you get them what they need but it can prevent straw purchases as well.


I keep seeing this 'I have the right to refuse business to anyone for any reason' pop up. So I have to say it again. People selling commercially, no matter what it is, really don't have that right. Guns are no different. Let me rephrase that-you do have the right, but can be sued and will lose for SOME reasons. If you make the decisn that you are not going to sell to a single individual because he stunk so bad it was disrupting your shop, you could get away with that and defend it. You could probably also get away with making that decision based on gang tattoos. But if you made that decision based on race, sex, style of dress, sexual orientation, etc. You could find yourself on the wrong end of a lawsuit. That is a dangerous approach, especially if you have three or four employees and are not at your business every day.
 
Trunk,...so you, and others believe that one should not "discriminate" and sell to someone with obvious gang affiliation, ie, clothing, identifying tattoos, knowing full well that they are likely to be involved in some criminal enterprise based on the notion that "if he passes the BG check, he must be ok!"?
 
The problem is that tattos and some sort of clothing does not mean gang affiliation and criminal endeavor.
Anymore than a nice suit or good car or clean accent or good shave means "non-criminal.
 
Trunk,...so you, and others believe that one should not "discriminate" and sell to someone with obvious gang affiliation, ie, clothing, identifying tattoos, knowing full well that they are likely to be involved in some criminal enterprise based on the notion that "if he passes the BG check, he must be ok!"?
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Yes, we are a nation of laws not feelings, hunches or predjudices. If a person passes the background check and isn't making an obvious straw purchase you complete the sale. Criminals do not buy their firearms from FFLs
 
Don't forget that undercover LEOs won't look like upstanding citizens.
A guy with the same former employer in '84 had two of them on a flight from MEI to MEM.
Their vital need to avoid suspicion can require them to even 'smell the part'.

Years ago near Memphis, two grungy-looking guys were in either a gun or fist fight with a drug dealer who was very well-dressed.

A passerby assumed that the grungy guys were criminals, and the passerby reportedly used his carry gun to kill both undercover officers.
 
xfyrfiter said:
I am a legal citizen of the US and have no criminal record. I have the right enumerated constitutionally to keep and bear arms . You only have the right to rufuse to sell me a gun if i cannot pass the background check and you are a FFL.
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Well - you are completely incorrect in stating that I do not have the right to refuse service.
I do have the right to refuse service.
I have refused service.
I will continue to refuse service as I see fit.

Where issues arise are in the case in which I should refuse service based upon gender, race, age, physical ability, perceived accents and the like.

look at an extreme and very obvious example... One comes up to me at a show like Portland and is clearly, extremely intoxicated. Regardless of how that person presents physically I am not completing a firearm sale and there would be zero recourse on the part of the customer - been there, done that and got my legal fees off the zero before it was over.
 
Innocent until proven guilty. The intent of our forefathers deserves a chance. If you KNOW a person is prohibited from buying a gun, then follow the law. If you presume innocence until you learn otherwise, you are ALSO practicing the law.
 
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