Dealing with generator thieves

[brufener]

Here is the hypo:

You live in the Pacific Northwest and your power was knocked out last week. You set up a generator to provide electricity for your furnace fan to spread heat throughout your home. During the night you wake up and notice that several miscreants are attempting to cut the chain on your generator and take off with it. You call the police, but due to blocked roads and/or bad weather it will be at least 10 or 15 minutes before they get there. Plenty of time for the miscreants to take off with your generator. The loss of the generator does not put you in immediate peril, but it could make things uncomfortable, or worse, if the power is out for a while. What do you do?

RULE: PER THE HIGHROAD STRATEGY AND TACTICS RULES, THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE IS NOT AUTHORIZED IN THIS SITUATION. Use of deadly force is only authorized when life or limb is in immediate peril.

If you decide to confront the miscreants, where do you do it from (e.g. bedroom window, back porch, backyard, etc)? Do you do it from a place of cover or concealment?

If you decide to confront the miscreants, do you take a weapon? If so, what weapon and how do you carry it (e.g. concealed, low-ready, etc.)?

If you confront the miscreants and they begin to approach you, what do you do?

Please be as specific as possible and explain your reasoning/thought process.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Set off the Claymores.

 

[orionengnr]

Depends on your state law.

You are familiar with your state law, right?

I am...

 

[brufener]

Depends on your state law.

You are familiar with your state law, right?

I am...

Seems to me state law is pretty irrelevant for this hypo because relevant state law is the same for almost all states. The only exception I can think of is Texas which allows the use of force against thieves, but only at night (I think - I'm no expert on Texas law).

Are there states that specifically prohibit confronting thieves?

Are there states that specifically prohibit carrying weapons on your private property?

Orionengnr, can you expand on which part of state law would be relevant?

 

[thexrayboy]

You are quite right to say that use of deadly force to prevent theft of property is legal only in a few locales thus limiting your options. You first must decide before the situation were to occur whether you can afford the loss of the generator, i.e not just the money to replace it but would the loss of power it provide cause such a problem as to jeopardize your health or wellbeing or make your current shelter untenable with no viable alternative.

If you can afford to lose it then your option in confronting this type of miscreant are somewhat limited. Try to get them to leave by using means that do not communicate a threat of violence. Take their picture so they know that they are identifiable and if caught will likely do time. Make sure that your property is well identified so you can prove it is yours. Keep copy of the reciept with the serial number etc.

If you cannot live without the generator then your choice of response is different. Yes you should try to scare off the interlopers through threat of arrest and identification etc. But you must be willing and able to physically intervene to prevent the theft if they "see your bet and raise". This may mean something like pepper spraying them with high end OC or use of a taser device or other nonlethal means. This is offered only as a last resort option to use if you simply cannot afford the loss of said property. If you resort to this level of violence the chances of a violent response from the trespassers, especially if there is more than one or two increases. You must be prepared to deal with deadly force.

Remember, you need to make these decisions and prepare for your planned response while you can think logically. And remember, sometimes no matter what you do, even if you are right you will be the one charged. It's an ugly truth but still the truth. Right isn't always legal and legal is frequently not right.

 

[buck00]

You don't have to shoot or kill anyone. Use common sense. If you confront them while armed, most likely they would simply drop the generator and run. Most "miscreants" out to steal generators are expecting people to be asleep or unaware. They aren't showing up with guns intending a shootout.

Honestly, are the "miscreants" going to run off and call 911 and say "We was try to steal us a generator, and some guy pointed a shotgun at us!" ?

 

[BullfrogKen]

A generator isn't exactly something one, or even 4 people, can just pick up and run off with.


If you didn't want to confront them, take down the license plate on the TRUCK they're gonna load it in.

Let the air out of a tire.

Block the truck with your car.


If you wanted to confront them, then go do it. Thieves are generally opportunists. Not many will hang around when you catch them in the act.


These whole "what-ifs" don't make for much other than internet speculation. What I might do, and what he might do, opposed to what she might do . . . doesn't really matter. Its really up to you, and what you're going to do, based on your risk tolerance, your abilities, and your unique situation personality, and inter-personal skills.

It isn't appropriate to ask what we'd do, especially in specific details, because we are all different, and have differing abilities and skill sets.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

I hope my off-the-cuff answer got a laugh and didn't offend.

In a situation where the generator is needed, it seems that a "HEY!...what are you doing?" with a rifle or shotgun in hand would be an appropriate response.

You would certainly not be justified to just start shooting, unless it was in the midst of complete social breakdown, so you may want to shout from behind some sort of cover and have a retreat plan.

 

[brufener]

I guess I was assuming a small generator that is easily moved, like the kind you buy at the hardware store for a couple hundred bucks.

These whole "what-ifs" don't make for much other than internet speculation. What I might do, and what he might do, opposed to what she might do . . . doesn't really matter. Its really up to you, and what you're going to do, based on your risk tolerance, your abilities, and your unique situation personality, and inter-personal skills.

I agree, but I'm not sure what I would do. I asked what other people would do, and their reasoning/thought process, so I could see if the same reasoning made sense for me.

First, I will not use deadly force to protect property for personal reasons.

My biggest fear is that in order to effectively confront them, I will open myself up to danger. Getting beatup by 3 guys isn't worth it in this situation. This isn't the movies, 3 on 1 is a losing battle for the 1. On the other hand, just yelling from a bedroom window is unlikely to have much effect, but it will provide lots of safety.

I guess I have answered my own question - be as bold as I can (maybe even going into the backyard), but if they "up the ante" I will have to back down.

I do appreciate the ideas on ways to "up the ante" without putting myself in more danger. In particular, taking pictures/video is not one I would of thought of.

 

[rbernie]

"Yo, homie - that my generator?"

If you decide to confront the miscreants, where do you do it from (e.g. bedroom window, back porch, backyard, etc)? Do you do it from a place of cover or concealment?

I imagine that my instinct would be to be seen while I ask them to leave, and to be seen armed with a long weapon with a big freakin' magazine on it.

 

[carterbeauford]

What are they cutting the hypothetical chain with? I use chains at work which require an acetylene torch to cut. They have about a 3" link, 50K rating or something like that.

 

[Wesker]

Can I ask why it is necessary to post a thread concerning every conceivable 'what if' scenario your paranoid conspiracy theorizing minds can concoct? These kinds of things have really begun to turn me off of this place.

 

[brufener]

Can I ask why it is necessary to post a thread concerning every conceivable 'what if' scenario your paranoid conspiracy theorizing minds can concoct? These kinds of things have really begun to turn me off of this place.

If posting a what-if thread about something that has been widely reported on the major news outlets within the past week means I have a "paranoid conspiracy theorizing mind," then pass the tinfoil.

If you don't like the thread, don't read it. If you think it is lame, why would you post on it and keep it going? (this is a hypothetical question, please don't answer)

 

[2TransAms]

It's not paranoid,it's a very real possibility. Plenty of generators were stolen around here two weeks ago when the power was out and temps were in the 20s.

Oh and I just chained mine to my truck bumper. You can unbolt the bumper or torch the chain,and time is not a thief's friend.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Wesker, they've tested my patience, too.

I have no doubt someone's pulled up to Home Depot or a job construction site and stolen these things. Someone wanna substantiate how often this widely reported occurance is actually happening - meaning stealing them, while running, from someone's home.


Otherwise, I have a hard time believing thieves to be so bold.

 

[Wesker]

Ok, it is possible for lots of stuff in your yard to be stolen. Even your car isn't safe and it's locked up with a simple lock. What I am wondering is if anyone has any common sense anymore. If a thief wants something of yours hes going to get it. No amount of locks or alarms will stop it, nor chains and locks. You can have the heaviest gauge chain but be defeated at your Master lock with a pair of bolt cutters.

I actually read a thread on here where a particular meatball seriously suggested laying in wait with paintballs and airsoft guns to ambush kids who were opening unlocked cars and stealing stuff from inside them, and that thread went on for almost three pages! Full of suggestions for 'vantage points' and 'tactical maneuvers' like they were taking out a fortified machine gun nest. Forget remembering to lock your 20,000 dollar piece of machinery you're still making payments on, lets all get tacticool and repel from street lamps and mozambique drill some 15 year old kids who're taking advantage of scatter-brained grown ups.

It seems to me that people are so clenched up about the principle of the thing that they ignore an unsatisfying but simple solution.

 

[c_yeager]

Seems to me state law is pretty irrelevant for this hypo because relevant state law is the same for almost all states. The only exception I can think of is Texas which allows the use of force against thieves, but only at night (I think - I'm no expert on Texas law).

I believe the relevant Texas law actually allows a person to shoot anyone who is engaging in any kind of "mischief" on thier property during the hours of darkness. Washington state law is actually farely liberal on use of force and justifiable homicide, here is the justifiable homicide RCW:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.050

Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.

Stealing a generator is almost certainly a felony upon ones dwelling. Of course I wouldnt want to be a test case on that one. Although in the past people in this state have been no-billed for killing thieves. You can *certainly* offer the threat of force and use non-lethal force in protecting your property.

Here is the general use of force law:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.020

It's pretty long so I am just going to quote the relevant portion:

(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;

(4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;

The key idea here is the "force that is not more than is necessary" portion. That means no more force than is necessary to retain your property, which could indeed be a lethal amount of force. Notice that there is no circumstance in the law that states that a person must ever surrender their property to a theif, so whatever you need to do to keep your property is (technically) acceptable.

None of this means that you would get away with shooting a person out-of-hand while they are stealing your generator (I think it would be morally wrong as well). However, I see no reason why walking out of the front door with a shotgun in my hand is going to be unreasonable in this case.

 

[tanksoldier]

Take a shotgun and go discuss it with them.

If they escalate the situation then you are defending your life, not a generator.

Most likely they would just run.

 

[carterbeauford]

Can I ask why it is necessary to post a thread concerning every conceivable 'what if' scenario your paranoid conspiracy theorizing minds can concoct? These kinds of things have really begun to turn me off of this place.

If someone posts something useful/helpful like I tried to, it might apply to broader topics, AKA properly securing your crap during times of crisis.

Can't argue, anyone with a Hedberg quote in his sig is cool with me.

 

[brufener]

BullfrogKen (and Wesker),

Please don't get offended, but you need to read the "Reality in Strategies and Tactics" sticky at the top of this forum.

Your words:

It isn't appropriate to ask what we'd do, especially in specific details, because we are all different, and have differing abilities and skill sets.

From "Reality in Strategies and Tactics" sticky:

What should I carry in my pockets, pack, car, have in my house....in case of a car breakdown, I get lost in the wilderness, there is a hurricane, tornado, earthquake, and what have other members done in those situations. Are on topic and welcome.

(emphasis added)

Your words:

Someone wanna substantiate how often this widely reported occurance is actually happening - meaning stealing them, while running, from someone's home.

From "Reality in Strategies and Tactics" sticky:

Basically, if there is a real likelyhood that it could happen to a member it's on topic.

As I read it, there is no requirement to "substantiate how often this widely reported occurance is actually happening" to be on topic. All that is required is "a real likelihood that it could happen to a member."

If you are saying that there is no real likelihood that a member could be confronted with someone trying to steal their generator, that is fine. Please close the thread.

If you don't like this type of thread, then change the forum rules. I will follow them. But don't get annoyed with threads that follow the forum rules.

 

[Wesker]

It wasn't directed at you, carter. Just a trend I've noticed as of late regarding a good portion of the threads in S&P, as well as L&P.

 

[old4x4]

1 shot straight into the ground. That'll get their attention. They're likely to give your place a wide berth in the future. Don't like my answer? Stay away from my stuff them...

 

[Mortech]

Well being in the middle of this great darkness we call the Pacific NW I can tell you that a 4000 watt generator IS something a person can carry off ( fortunately I was without power for only 14 hours ), especially since I own one . As for defending your property , it depends on where exactly you live . Here on the peninsula its almost as if it was Texas here , you DO NOT tresspass on someone property at night . A for the shoot / no shoot circumstance I can point to the case of where there was this group of junkies robbing rural vetenarian clinics . They had broke in and the owner surprised them , one had made it 10 yards or so out the door running toward their getaway car . The owner aparently shot him in the back as he was running away , the prosecutor said since he was elderly , and the word was obviously out about their robbery intents and targets it was the perps fault so no charges were pressed .(But so many liberals in the community gave the old guy such a bad time he closed his clinic and moved away several months later ) . Oh BTW I usually with walk around the tree farm in which I live open carrying my M&P40 and somtimes also carrying my WSAR-10 or my Cetme slung over my shoulder

 

[Langenator]

To add a little more of "how likely is this?": So far, it hasn't been a widely reported problem, even though some areas are still without power and predicted to be for a couple more days in some instances.

Also, the Pac NW is an area that could, basically at any time, suffer from an earthquake and tsunami similar in scale to the one that hit Alaska in the 60s, or possibly bigger. (9.5, with 3-5 minutes of shaking, isn't out of the question.) In that situation, power would be out for a LONG time, gas and water service would probalby be out. So I'd say generator theft in that situation would be a very real problem.

Now, that being said, I'd go armed (holstered pistol for sure, slung longgun possibly) but the first thing I'd go for to drive them off would be the garden hose, if I could get to it. A CO2 fire extinguisher could also be effective. Dry chemical ones would work too, but that stuff can be nasty.

 

[torpid]

Well, according to this NY Times article (during a rather unpleasant time in Louisiana during 2005) generator theft was a real possibility for this guy...

...Some frightened homeowners took security into their own hands.

John Carolan was sitting on his porch in the thick, humid darkness just before midnight Tuesday when three or four young men, one with a knife and another with a machete, stopped in front of his fence and pointed to the generator humming in the front yard, he said.

One said, "We want that generator," he recalled.

"I fired a couple of rounds over their heads with a .357 Magnum," Mr. Carolan recounted Wednesday. "They scattered."

He smiled and added, "You've heard of law west of the Pecos. This is law west of Canal Street."