Dealing with generator thieves

[pedaldude]

stealing a generator could lead to someones death, I knew a family that had one because of an elderly parent with parkinsons. Also if it is cold enough and you have electric heat. Also wouldn't looting laws come into play if the generator was only used for power outages and emergencies?

I think that there are some people here saying to just be a good victim? tell me I'm wrong. I think the original question can only be answered depending on what the generator is being used for and it's purpose in that situation. Also I think that the question involves a small portable generator. Also you can always have a generator big or small installed inside the house. It requires a vent and an intake and whatever local code demands. My sisters house has an extra oil tank and space for a skid mounted generator in her house in rural Ct. where the electric company can take a while to finish the job during an ice storm.

 

[Jeff White]

I think that in most cases it's going to be a stretch to prove to a reasonable man that loss of your generator was a threat to you or a member of your household's life. In the last two big power outages in my are, one during a heat wave back in July and one in subfreezing temperatures after an ice storm a couple weeks ago, only a handful of people died out of millions who were without power. And most of those deaths were not directly attributable to the fact there was no electicity. Many were accidents, some were from carbon monoxide poisoning because people were running their generators in their houses because they were afraid they would be stolen.

The problem is essentially the same as confronting any other person you may catch attempting to make off with your property.

Why is it that I am getting the impression many members are looking for an excuse to shoot someone? I don't this reflects well on gunowners in general and THR in particular.

Yes, this thread is on topic, because it is posible that a member could face the possibility of catching someone stealing his generator. What's not plausible is the notion that because there is a power outage, the generator is now a life support system and deadly force is legally permitted to protect it.

I really don't believe you'd get that far in court with that kind of an argument as an affirmative defense. Of course stranger things have happened. I know of a case that happened in Patoka, Illinois a couple years ago where the owner of a rural trucking company shot two people in the back as they were fleeing from his yard with anhydrous ammonia they had taken from a tank trailer stored there. No charges were filed, the case never even went before a grand jury. Does that mean it was a legal use of force under Illinois law? No, it just means that for whatever reason, the states attorney decided not to pursue charges. No one was killed in the shooting and that may have had a lot to do with the fact no one was charged. But does anyone here want to bet their life that the local prosecutor will decide to send a message to the criminal element by letting you off for shooting someone who was stealing your generator?

I really think there is little chance you're going to convince a jury that the loss of a generator was going to place you or someone in your household in imminent danger of losing life or suffering great bodily harm.

Before you argue that, you need to look up the definition of imminent. I can think of no home health treatment that requires electricity or the person will immediatly die or experience grat harm. People who are that ill are in hospitals where they have backup power sources.

Jeff

 

[spartan55]

Thank god I live in Texas

Talk about emergency situations! how about the aftermath of Rita? I've heard of very few things stolen in the aftermath and only in nighborhoods where everyone had evactuated. we were without power for two weeks, about the sixth day I got bored and took a 4wheeler trip about 2blocks down negociating fallen trees and drebris. I was stopped by 3 armed fellers I did not know, but recognised from waving hello at each other as we drove by the yrs I had lived here. Looking real serious they told me I had no business on thier street and I needed to leave. At first I was surprised then angry, then thought "you know, your right, have a nice day" I left actually feeling better, and safer knowing someone was watching my SIX. That should be the poster for community watch program!

 

[rustymaggot]

let the dog out to pee.

 

[evan price]

Most people won't argue when a man with a .45 in his belt and a 12-gauge in his hands steps onto the porch and racks a round of 00 buck into the chamber of the shotgun.
Especially if he's backed up by a big dog.

 

[sacp81170a]

When you said "several miscreants" you just defined a situation where deadly force may very well come into play justifiably. If you confront several people and they turn on you, you have a disparity of force situation. They needn't be armed. A beat down by several thugs is as deadly as an attack with a baseball bat or a knife. Do not confront them without being capable of deadly force in response. You can justifiably attempt to prevent them from stealing your property, but the use of deadly force isn't justified without some escalation on their part.

It can escalate very quickly, however, so you must be prepared to react even more quickly. The weapons and tactics you should be prepared to use have been discussed ad infinitum elsewhere, but they are useless without the proper mindset. Are you prepared to defend yourself with deadly force? If so, confrontation is an option. If not, hide and let them take the generator. Understand, however, that they may come back looking for something else that they "need" since you were so obliging with your generator...

 

[Geno]

Go hunting!

I can't believe you all missed the opportunity here to go raccoon hunting. I'd walk out with my loaded rifle, and my two very big, very ugly and very mean, and completely uncontrollable raccoon dogs. You see, because I know that nobody steals, and because I trust and love everyone, I'd be of the mindset that my buddies came to rouse me out of bed to go night-hunting! Of course if I were incorrect, I'm sure that Rover I and Rover II could convince these, what did you call them, Li'l "excrements" to go "shop" elsewhere.



Doc2005

 

[992]

My 165lb. Great Pyrn. dog sleeps in the same shed that my genset is stored.
After they woke him up,that genset would be the last thing on their mind.
Besides,they could run a lot faster without the generator,or their tools.
That is how I happen to find several "abandoned' gas cans and hoses,my old pal Buddy,must have tried to help them steal gas!!!


992

 

[30 cal slob]

let's throw another hypothetical twist into this situation.

say the generator is used to power a ventilator (life-sustaining medical device) for a dependent person in the house. without which said person would die.

would this be a more clearcut case for using deadly force to protect property and life?

 

[hso]

You'd better keep your distance and use solid cover before you put a light on them and tell them to leave the property. If you've got someone that can cover them with a shotgun or rifle to react to any hostile behavior you'd be well served, but only after they demonstrated themselves to be a direct threat in response to your demand that they leave.

 

[AmbulanceDriver]

.30 cal, I was about to make the same point. Most of the vents/iv pumps/etc. have some form of battery backup which would provide backup power for anywhere from 30 mins to 6 hours depending on the size of the backup device.... That being said, the theft of a generator in those particular circumstances could be arguable as a threat of life. However, you better have on heckuva good attorney, documentation from doctors stating that loss of emergency power would represent a grave, dire, and immediate danger to this person's life, etc.

Given that particular scenario, I would make it very clear to said miscreants that due to granny's health problems, stealing that generator would be seen as a threat to granny's life, and would be dealt with accordingly.

 

[invisibleman_007]

Well, I know that in Southern MS, after a certain infamous storm, there were reports of generator thefts. In fact, while listening to the radio one afternoon, one of the town mayors that was being interviewed explained that in his area there had been a rash of exactly that type of crime. He quite vocally requested his citizens to "do the right thing if you catch someone trying to steal a generator... and by do the right thing, I mean shoot them". I am in no way advocating this as a good solution to that sort of problem, but I found it quite telling of the area's general mentality that a public official would advocate that sort of solution...

 

[langenc]

I did not read all posts but BULLFROG has it mostly right.

Get the license plate number and then let the air out of a tire or 2-with a knife or 22. Then when they come crashing the door you will have 'good reason' to protect yourself.

 

[gyp_c2]

yup

That's a great point AmbulanceDriver!
It wouldn't hurt to document that sort of medical information ahead of time...would it...

The way disasters have been happening, it might not be long before someone needs it!

 

[gunny1022]

Much of rural Texas still has the frontier mentality. Things were needed for survival like your horse, your food, your rifle.

 

[Manedwolf]

when three or four young men, one with a knife and another with a machete, stopped in front of his fence and pointed to the generator humming in the front yard, he said.

One said, "We want that generator," he recalled.

I'd call that a threat of deadly force that could be met with deadly force?

/thread makes me want to trade the 870 for a Saiga 12...

 

[spacejunkiehsv]

A paintball gun would do the trick, maybe a shotgun fired into the air, followed up by a pump for a "possible" followup shot.

We used to use a paintball gun on a dog that kept coming into my yard. My wife actually had a little too much fun doing it. It was hilarious.

I recommend a paintball gun backed up by an easily accessible handgun, in case they are violent.

 

[Zero_DgZ]

I agree with the story posted at the end of the first page.

Introduce them to the Boomstick. Obviously don't come out shooting, but make it known that yo have said Boomstick and the generator is not public property, thank you very much.

 

[Deathrider1579]

Texas Law

States in PC 9.41 http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/ftp/forms/ls-16.pdf

That a person is justified in using force or deadly force to protect your property or to protect your neighbor's property! If this is in the day time you will probably have more problems if you shoot the guy than if it was at night. But 9.42 says that you are authorized to use deadly force if you believe that using non-deadly force would put you at risk. But at nighttime all bets are off.

So, in most cases shoot'm from the window with a shotgun.

But your hypo isn't in Texas.

Here is what I would do;

I see these irrelevant forms of carbon sneaking through my fence with implements of harm and trouble. So I suddenly feel like my life is in danger and arm my self with whatever happens to be handy (probably aforementioned shotgun but perhaps a handgun) and slide open a window facing said trouble makers. I would then proceed to holler about how I am thinking they are going to cause harm to me and mine (toss in some threats about how they are going to get hurt if they come any closer). I am sorry but I don't really care about rules if they are coming at my house with weapons so I would drop them right there if they kept coming.

-DR

 

[LordGibson]

As to whether or not theft of a generator might constitute a threat to life, I could see certain circumstances where it may. Here in the northeast, it's not unusual to hear once or twice a year of some poor, elderly couple found dead in their home from hypothermia. If that generator is the only way to keep warm in sub-zero temps, your closest neighbor is far enough away, and you don't have a safe means of travel - MAYBE.

Now, in such a situation, or even one much less dire, it's certain to be pretty cold outside. I'd make sure all the doors and windows were secured, my wife and I were well armed INSIDE the house, and casually dump a 5-gallon bucket of water on their heads from the upstairs bedroom window.

I bet that would get them moving. Then if they attempted to force their way into my home we'd have a totally different scenario with somewhat clearer rules of engagement.

 

[roo_ster]

First & foremost, know your local laws. Also, this would be quite case-specific.

In my case, they would have had to breach a 6' fence that surrounds my back yard, so they would have shown some pretty serious intent to do wrong. Also, our laws are pretty pro-defense.

I would confront them:
1. From behind cover (bricks & mortar)
2. With my wife also providing overwatch from a window (that also has brick/mortar cover)
3. Both self & wife armed with long guns & lights (to remain off until needed)

They would get a verbal warning to leave and to not make any threatening motions.

If they leave and make no threatening motions, hooray, that is how I would like it to play out.

If they persist, but don't make any threatening motions, my dogs get released to help them make the right decision with the help of "dog-logic."

If there are threatening motions, we will defend ourselves.

 

[XDKingslayer]

A generator isn't exactly something one, or even 4 people, can just pick up and run off with.


If you didn't want to confront them, take down the license plate on the TRUCK they're gonna load it in.

Let the air out of a tire.

Block the truck with your car.

After weathering serveral hurricanes a couple years ago, I would like to tell you just how wrong you are. You would be suprised what two people can load up and stick into the back of hatch back Honda CRV.

For the OP the usual responce down here in Florida to people stealing your generator is to sneak out the opposite door of your home, shotgun in one hand, dog in the other. The first step is to release the dog without warning, the second is hit them with a light, rack the shotgun to chamber a round, and let them know they have approximately 10 seconds to start running, if they haven't already.

Most generator thieves just want power, not bullet wounds and will run. This worked several times and my generator is still mine. The chain has a few links that are visibly damaged, but chains are cheap, generators are not.

For my father, simply sticking his head out the window above the generator asking "45 or 10 gauge" was enough to send them scurrying.

Nope, this isn't "high road" advice, but when your family's warmth and safety are at stake, high road goes out the window.

 

[kludge]

Indiana law: The thing I can't figure out is why they stuck the new "no duty to retreat" clause in 35-41-3-2 Sec. 2(c)(2), it almost makes it sound like there is a duty to retreat when defending property unless deadly force is justified. Hmmm. Any lawyers here? Up till this year there was no (2) when they added "no duty to retreat" to Sec. 2(a). I wonder why they just didn't use the verbiage of 35-41-3-3 Sec. 3(a)(2)??

IC 35-47-4-3
Pointing firearm at another person
35-47-4-3 Sec. 3. (a) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who is acting within the scope of the law enforcement officer's official duties or to a person who is justified in using reasonable force against another person under:
(1) IC 35-41-3-2; or
(2) IC 35-41-3-3.
(b) A person who knowingly or intentionally points a firearm at another person commits a Class D felony. However, the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if the firearm was not loaded.

35-41-3-2 Sec. 2. (c) With respect to property other than a dwelling, curtilage, or an occupied motor vehicle, a person is justified in using reasonable force against another person if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to immediately prevent or terminate the other person's trespass on or criminal interference with property lawfully in the person's possession, lawfully in possession of a member of the person's immediate family, or belonging to a person whose property the person has authority to protect. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
only if that force is justified under subsection (a).

35-41-3-3 Sec. 3. (a) A person other than a law enforcement officer is justified in using reasonable force against another person to effect an arrest or prevent the other person's escape if:
(1) a felony has been committed; and
(2) there is probable cause to believe the other person committed that felony.
However, such a person is not justified in using deadly force unless that force is justified under section 2 of this chapter.

 

[Ryder]

1 shot straight into the ground. That'll get their attention. They're likely to give your place a wide berth in the future. Don't like my answer? Stay away from my stuff them...

That's how it's generally done around here. I've never seen it not work. It makes the problem disappear fast and alerts the neighbors. I imagine there's not much worse than having a neighborhood chase you down.

 

[sam1952]

I am curious how this scenario is different then the shop owners with their AR’s defending their business’s from roof tops during the LA riots ?

Had any shop owners been charged for shooting a looter during said riots ?

Also this post mirrors my feelings exactly:

When you said "several miscreants" you just defined a situation where deadly force may very well come into play justifiably. If you confront several people and they turn on you, you have a disparity of force situation. They needn't be armed. A beat down by several thugs is as deadly as an attack with a baseball bat or a knife. Do not confront them without being capable of deadly force in response. You can justifiably attempt to prevent them from stealing your property, but the use of deadly force isn't justified without some escalation on their part.

It can escalate very quickly, however, so you must be prepared to react even more quickly. The weapons and tactics you should be prepared to use have been discussed ad infinitum elsewhere, but they are useless without the proper mindset. Are you prepared to defend yourself with deadly force? If so, confrontation is an option.