anotherKevin
Member
zombies?
Zombies don't need no steenkin' generators!
Zombies don't need no steenkin' generators!
Dealing with generator thieves
- Thread starter brufener
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LkWinnipesaukee
Member
Would you be able to legally walk out with a rifle slung over your shoulder?
X-Rap
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The notion that you should just shoot someone is not well grounded. How ever stealing a generator when all the power is up and running and stealing a generator or other survival item when there is a disaster is not apples to apples. Compare it to having a defibrillator at a health club, if it hangs on the wall and someone steals it its only theft unless someone has a heart attack at which time it becomes probably manslaughter at least if it is recovered or replaced. That is how I view survival gear theft.
X-Rap,
It doesn't matter how you, or anyone else views survival gear theft. The only thing that matters is how the law views it. I kind of doubt that the law will view it your way.
There are too many members who are grasping at straws looking for the lucky short one that gives them justification to shoot someone. :banghead:
Jeff
It doesn't matter how you, or anyone else views survival gear theft. The only thing that matters is how the law views it. I kind of doubt that the law will view it your way.
There are too many members who are grasping at straws looking for the lucky short one that gives them justification to shoot someone. :banghead:
Jeff
CZ-100
Member
Jeff.
From your posting...
To me the law is saying that if they are unlawfully entering my house, they are intent on doing something bad/violence.
This thread "Dealing with generator thieves" actually happened to me....
In 2004, during Hurricane Frances and Jeanne, we were with out power for over a week in each storm (10 days/each). I had the generator chained to a tree on the side of the house and powering both the house and my Travel Trailer (TT) we were sleeping in the TT at night and running the A/C, it was hot.
Well one night I awoke and looked out the window of the TT and I see pickup driving very slowly down my street with No lights on, and it proceeded to stop in front of my house.
These Two POS decided to get out and make their way toward my generator. I woke my wife and she grabbed a pistol and called the cops, cell phone service just came up that morning and I grabbed my 12 Gage shotgun and quietly opened the door and walked around and confronted the two POS by racking the slide on the shotty, needless to say I got their attention. One had boly cutters and the other had a baseball bat, I know what the bolt cutters were for, Hmmm... I woulder what the bat was for? I held them at gunpoint until the police arrived and took them in, they were there in ~2-3 min. Cops were setup at all the major roads insection and coming into the city, so they were close.
At the start of our weather problems, Hurricanes, our sheriff announced to everyone thru the media, TV, radio and newspaper that looters would not be tolerated and could and would be shot. None were shot, but many were held at gunpoint until the cops showed up.
CZ-100,
Florida law says that the only justification for the use of deadly force is:
the key to the whole thing is the defininion of presumed. It means in absence of the facts. If the facts show that you were not in fear of imminent death or great bodily harm, the use of force would be illegal.
The section on immunity states that you can be arrested if there is probable cause to believe the use of force was unlawful. If you can be arrested, you can certainly be taken to trial.
Jeff
Florida law says that the only justification for the use of deadly force is:
the key to the whole thing is the defininion of presumed. It means in absence of the facts. If the facts show that you were not in fear of imminent death or great bodily harm, the use of force would be illegal.
The section on immunity states that you can be arrested if there is probable cause to believe the use of force was unlawful. If you can be arrested, you can certainly be taken to trial.
Jeff
XDKingslayer
member
Jeff, you argue this with me every time and you are simply cut and dry wrong.
Your answer is in your very own copying and pasting.
I'll break this down simply for you, the way the Florida legal system has defined it, not the way you wish it to read.
1a clearly gives you authority to shoot someone breaking into your home. It, again clearly, says that you are authorized to use deadly force if someone is unlawfully and forcibly entering your home. You can dig up all the dictionary definitions you wish but they don't mean squat. Case law is what does.
I know you're a cop, but you're paid to uphold the law, not translate it, that is what lawyers and judges are for. Funny, they have seen it my way quiet a few times now.
Let me please remind you, like I have to every time you wish to argue this with me, that a Miami man was found not guilty of shooting a COP on his lanai who was there without a warrant. The judge himself reminded the jury of our laws in that case. Gutmacher has come to the exact same conclusion as everyone else on these laws.
And case law trumps your opinion on our laws every single time.
Stick to Illinios laws.
Again, wrong. They are using presumed as in someone breaking into your house is presumed to be there to do you harm, i.e., by default someone breaking into your home unlawfully and forcibly is there to hurt you.
Like I said, you can argue this until your blue in the face. There is case law out there that proves you 100% wrong. If what you said was even remotely correct, that man that shot the cop in Miami would be in prison. He's a free man, found not guilty by a jury of his peers that have managed to read Florida law correctly.
Your answer is in your very own copying and pasting.
I'll break this down simply for you, the way the Florida legal system has defined it, not the way you wish it to read.
1a clearly gives you authority to shoot someone breaking into your home. It, again clearly, says that you are authorized to use deadly force if someone is unlawfully and forcibly entering your home. You can dig up all the dictionary definitions you wish but they don't mean squat. Case law is what does.
I know you're a cop, but you're paid to uphold the law, not translate it, that is what lawyers and judges are for. Funny, they have seen it my way quiet a few times now.
Let me please remind you, like I have to every time you wish to argue this with me, that a Miami man was found not guilty of shooting a COP on his lanai who was there without a warrant. The judge himself reminded the jury of our laws in that case. Gutmacher has come to the exact same conclusion as everyone else on these laws.
And case law trumps your opinion on our laws every single time.
Stick to Illinios laws.
Again, wrong. They are using presumed as in someone breaking into your house is presumed to be there to do you harm, i.e., by default someone breaking into your home unlawfully and forcibly is there to hurt you.
Like I said, you can argue this until your blue in the face. There is case law out there that proves you 100% wrong. If what you said was even remotely correct, that man that shot the cop in Miami would be in prison. He's a free man, found not guilty by a jury of his peers that have managed to read Florida law correctly.
Got a link to the case law that shows that the courts read the law the way you say it reads? Remember it has to be a case where the use of force wouldn't have been justified under the sction on justifiable use of force.
Jeff
Jeff
X-Rap
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- Sep 23, 2006
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- 6,657
Mr. White do you not think that taking someones boat during a flood or stealing someones truck during an evacuation or the stopping thereof has different legal ramifications than if these acts were commited during what would be considered normal or static times? I for one am not grasping for straws and the generator has become a metaphor for what here is called shtf. In my lifetime I have seen many disasters and civil disruptions all around the world and fortunately they have been on TV. But to see that kind of destruction and disregard for human life that follows some of these things and not prepare a plan of action is a fools mistake. The time has long since passed but I believe that in the old days the penalty for horse thieves and rustlers was so stiff because people had such strong dependence upon the animals for their survival.
Well If you live in a house with a family rather than an apartment you should have a medium size dog or two always as they are the best protection you can buy .
As has been stated already let them out to do their business and you will find your generator thieves gone in short order .
Another option might be to keep some firecrackers on hand all the time Light and drop one on the ground and then yell "Hey get off of my property" at the thieves with a pistol in hand , firecracker goes off they think you shot at them they run away . If the Police are called you are guilty only of shooting off fireworks in the city limits "a $75 ticket in most places" as they can check all your guns to see if they have been fired and when they haven't you're not looking at more serious charges .
Just don't point the gun at them and you haven't "Brandished" your weapon .
Chances are no one will call the police anyway , most neighbors will be asleep and if it did wake them up it will all be over by time they look out a window if you go immediately back in and the thieves wont want the attention of the police .
As has been stated already let them out to do their business and you will find your generator thieves gone in short order .
Another option might be to keep some firecrackers on hand all the time Light and drop one on the ground and then yell "Hey get off of my property" at the thieves with a pistol in hand , firecracker goes off they think you shot at them they run away . If the Police are called you are guilty only of shooting off fireworks in the city limits "a $75 ticket in most places" as they can check all your guns to see if they have been fired and when they haven't you're not looking at more serious charges .
Just don't point the gun at them and you haven't "Brandished" your weapon .
Chances are no one will call the police anyway , most neighbors will be asleep and if it did wake them up it will all be over by time they look out a window if you go immediately back in and the thieves wont want the attention of the police .
X-rap,
I can't see very many possible situations where theft of a gnerator or anything else places the victim in danger of imminent death or great bodily harm.
But it doesn't matter what you or I think, what matters is what the law says about it. I've seen nothing in the law that says theft of anything places anyone in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. We don't live in the old West. We live in 22d century America. I suppose you might be able to make an argument that theft under certain circumstances was placing the victim in imminent danger of death or great bodlily harm, but how would the court accept that argument? It's a pretty big gamble.
The fact is that for most of us, the loss of a generator during a power outage is nothing more then an inconvenience. It really won't make you any worse off then the person who didn't take the time to prepare and have a generator of his own.
I would not be at all uncomfortable arresting someone who shot a person stealing his generator. I'm quite sure I could convict him, power outage or not. We can make all the moral arguments we want. But the law is the law. I suppose that it's possible to convince a judge or jury that losing that generator would put you in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm, but I think it's taking an awfully big chance with your freedom.
And please call me Jeff. Mr. White was my father.
Jeff
I can't see very many possible situations where theft of a gnerator or anything else places the victim in danger of imminent death or great bodily harm.
But it doesn't matter what you or I think, what matters is what the law says about it. I've seen nothing in the law that says theft of anything places anyone in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. We don't live in the old West. We live in 22d century America. I suppose you might be able to make an argument that theft under certain circumstances was placing the victim in imminent danger of death or great bodlily harm, but how would the court accept that argument? It's a pretty big gamble.
The fact is that for most of us, the loss of a generator during a power outage is nothing more then an inconvenience. It really won't make you any worse off then the person who didn't take the time to prepare and have a generator of his own.
I would not be at all uncomfortable arresting someone who shot a person stealing his generator. I'm quite sure I could convict him, power outage or not. We can make all the moral arguments we want. But the law is the law. I suppose that it's possible to convince a judge or jury that losing that generator would put you in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm, but I think it's taking an awfully big chance with your freedom.
And please call me Jeff. Mr. White was my father.
Jeff
XDKingslayer
member
I'll find it. While I'm doing that, why don't you read this pdf: http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com/faq001.shtml
This is Gutmacher's intepretation of the law. He is Florida's foremost gun attorney and his book translating Florida law for gun owners is a must have down here.
Actually, reading that should pretty much clarify things for you in the "presumption" department.
RioShooter
Member
I live in Texas, and will protect my property within the limits of the law.
'nuff said!
'nuff said!
XDKingslayer
member
Still haven't found it, but I'm not at the end of the internet yet. So, Jeff, if you've finished that, take a read on this: http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/freedomline/current/in_our_opinion/florida-self-defense-law.htm
It also explains the whole presumption thing to you.
Florida PRESUMES that someone breaking into your house is there to do you wrong and that deadly force is warranted.
Please pay special attention to this bullet (no pun intended):
It also explains the whole presumption thing to you.
Florida PRESUMES that someone breaking into your house is there to do you wrong and that deadly force is warranted.
Please pay special attention to this bullet (no pun intended):
Jeff, you're flat off base on this issue. Florida statutory law clearly states that if someone is entering your residence or vehicle, and they don't live there, it's assumed that they're there to do you harm. As such, you're allowed to use deadly force to defend yourself. Period.
The "shield" part has no intention of shielding a person from being prosecuted if it's warranted. What it does is shield a homeowner who has legally used deadly force from being sued in civil court.
The "shield" part has no intention of shielding a person from being prosecuted if it's warranted. What it does is shield a homeowner who has legally used deadly force from being sued in civil court.
When there is some case law on a shooting that wouldn't have been justified under the use of force statute we'll know for sure. Mr. Gutmacher's analysis is full of outs.
A court could just as easily read it the way I do. Then there is this encouraging analysis:
I don't think I'd be shooting someone who wasn't clearly placing me or someone else in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and depend on the immunities in that law to protect me until there was some case law that said the courts interpreted it to mean exactly what you and Gutmacher think it means.
Jeff
A court could just as easily read it the way I do. Then there is this encouraging analysis:
I don't think I'd be shooting someone who wasn't clearly placing me or someone else in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and depend on the immunities in that law to protect me until there was some case law that said the courts interpreted it to mean exactly what you and Gutmacher think it means.
Jeff
3 weelin geezer
Member
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2005
- Messages
- 28
I would take their picture but have a gun ready. That means someone to back me up just in case. 
They can't charge you with shooting them with a camera if they are in the process of carting it away you can show the police what they were doing so they can't just say you came out like Rambo and started pointing a gun at them for no reason. Especially if you can show they had a weapon ready for you. 
They can't charge you with shooting them with a camera if they are in the process of carting it away you can show the police what they were doing so they can't just say you came out like Rambo and started pointing a gun at them for no reason. Especially if you can show they had a weapon ready for you. busy_squirrel
Member
Generator theft has been and STILL IS an issue here. I personally know of one customer whos generator was stolen while running in the middle of the night. She didn't get power back yet (roughly a week) because she's out in the boonies where only 3 houses are without power. I'm sure she's still alive, (not life threatening,) but she was pretty pissed because her generator was cemented into the ground and they just sawed it off and took it.
For 3 weeks now, I've spent 45min-3 1/2 hours a day at work dealing with people trying to secure and use their generators. We can't keep generator parts in stock. We've sold out twice in the past week. And interestingly, noone is buying generators right now because the cost is too high based on demand. Everyone seems to "convieniently" already have generators, they just need cords, plugs, and transfer switches to connect them to the houses.
I live in Snohomish County, Wa. Several times I have had the county Sheriff out here to remove people from my property. IN THIS COUNTY, the sheriffs have told me that I NEVER have the right to use force to remove anyone from my property. I only have the right to call the LEOs to do it for me and to tell the person to leave.
He told me this immediately before arresting me for pushing a non-invited, non-resident out the front door. I reminded him that last time they came out it took between 20-25 min. for them to arrive. He stated it didn't matter, that I NEVER have the right to use force to remove anyone from my property, EVEN if my life is in danger.
Now my neighbors and visitors know that I have firearms on the property and I don't get protest/squatters/thiefs on the property anymore. It seems that "Walk Softly and Carry a Big Stick" still works.
For 3 weeks now, I've spent 45min-3 1/2 hours a day at work dealing with people trying to secure and use their generators. We can't keep generator parts in stock. We've sold out twice in the past week. And interestingly, noone is buying generators right now because the cost is too high based on demand. Everyone seems to "convieniently" already have generators, they just need cords, plugs, and transfer switches to connect them to the houses.
I live in Snohomish County, Wa. Several times I have had the county Sheriff out here to remove people from my property. IN THIS COUNTY, the sheriffs have told me that I NEVER have the right to use force to remove anyone from my property. I only have the right to call the LEOs to do it for me and to tell the person to leave.
He told me this immediately before arresting me for pushing a non-invited, non-resident out the front door. I reminded him that last time they came out it took between 20-25 min. for them to arrive. He stated it didn't matter, that I NEVER have the right to use force to remove anyone from my property, EVEN if my life is in danger.
Now my neighbors and visitors know that I have firearms on the property and I don't get protest/squatters/thiefs on the property anymore. It seems that "Walk Softly and Carry a Big Stick" still works.
12GA00buck
Member
I would confront the goblins with my 12GA at low ready position. I would NOT consider shooting them. There're dumb thieves, not murderers. The gun would be for security and argumentative purposes. Prior to going outside, I would call the police and tell them I'll be holding three thieves at gun point when they arrive. I would ask them to remain still with their hands in plain site. If they decided to run, there’s not much I could/would do. If the goblins decided to pull a weapon and assault me during the confrontation, I would respond appropriately. I believe the threat of getting shot would keep most people compliant during the situation. I need to check the laws before I recommend it though.
If the laws allow it, or if I was in a bad mood, I may douse the lot with a can of bear spray. I personally feel thievery dose not justify deadly force, however, I'm all in favor of potent non-lethal deterrents. I doubt they’d report they were sprayed while attempting a robbery. They would remember that lesson for along time.
Using a heavy chain and bolting the generator to something very secure seems like a good choice. Petty thieves are (I think), unlikely to go through the trouble of using a torch. Maybe one of those motion cameras hunters use would help, although that might also get stolen. Motion lights in the area would certainly help. If you know how, a motion sensitive alarm covering the generator would certainly be a good deterrent.
If I knew people were attempting to steal it, I would ask my neighbor to keep an eye out. I've used a threatening sign with success before. I was remodeling the garage, and was forced to leave a sizable volume of tools outside for two days. I put a tarp over the tools. I attached a sign that read:
Please don’t touch, owner is armed with a 12GA loaded with 00buck. I taped empty shell cases to the sign. After two days nothing was touched. Thieves want easy money, make it seem like the generator is not worth their time/effort.
If the laws allow it, or if I was in a bad mood, I may douse the lot with a can of bear spray. I personally feel thievery dose not justify deadly force, however, I'm all in favor of potent non-lethal deterrents. I doubt they’d report they were sprayed while attempting a robbery. They would remember that lesson for along time.
Using a heavy chain and bolting the generator to something very secure seems like a good choice. Petty thieves are (I think), unlikely to go through the trouble of using a torch. Maybe one of those motion cameras hunters use would help, although that might also get stolen. Motion lights in the area would certainly help. If you know how, a motion sensitive alarm covering the generator would certainly be a good deterrent.
If I knew people were attempting to steal it, I would ask my neighbor to keep an eye out. I've used a threatening sign with success before. I was remodeling the garage, and was forced to leave a sizable volume of tools outside for two days. I put a tarp over the tools. I attached a sign that read:
Please don’t touch, owner is armed with a 12GA loaded with 00buck. I taped empty shell cases to the sign. After two days nothing was touched. Thieves want easy money, make it seem like the generator is not worth their time/effort.
evan price
Member
If they were zombie generator thieves, it is OK to shoot them since by definition, zombies are the walking dead already. AFAIK it is not illegal to murder someone who is already dead. Maybe you might get "abuse of a corpse" if the prosecutor were so inclined.
Anyway, killing someone over mere property normally is a no-go. Ridiculous to even consider.
Killing someone over life-critical supplies or equipment, well, that's another story however it would take strong extenuating circumstances to require that.
However a prudent man investigates things that go bump in the night well-heeled. If the daring duo of genset thieves decided they want to vacate the area, well, that's fine with all of us.
If they decide to commence violence, well, they have sown the storm, let them reap the whirlwind. Or however that saying goes.
As far as stealing a generator from a hospital. Well, I have installed Cat gensets in hospitals, it would take a crane and several large semi-trailer trucks to remove one of the big Cat stationary gensets installed in most decent-sized hospitals. Not to mention a lot of disassembly work and usually knocking out a wall or two. And in order to maintain JCAHO accreditation hospitals have 2-3 times the generator capacity they actually need (Same with boilers and steam capacity). So a single genset gone owuld not hurt that much.
Anyway, killing someone over mere property normally is a no-go. Ridiculous to even consider.
Killing someone over life-critical supplies or equipment, well, that's another story however it would take strong extenuating circumstances to require that.
However a prudent man investigates things that go bump in the night well-heeled. If the daring duo of genset thieves decided they want to vacate the area, well, that's fine with all of us.
If they decide to commence violence, well, they have sown the storm, let them reap the whirlwind. Or however that saying goes.
As far as stealing a generator from a hospital. Well, I have installed Cat gensets in hospitals, it would take a crane and several large semi-trailer trucks to remove one of the big Cat stationary gensets installed in most decent-sized hospitals. Not to mention a lot of disassembly work and usually knocking out a wall or two. And in order to maintain JCAHO accreditation hospitals have 2-3 times the generator capacity they actually need (Same with boilers and steam capacity). So a single genset gone owuld not hurt that much.
mikeb3185
Member
take you dog out for a "walk"
XDKingslayer
member
ceetee, maybe you can help. You seem to be better at digging these up than I am.
In the spring of 2006 a man in Miami shot a cop that was on his lanai. The man had been burglarized several times in the past and purchased a handgun for protection. The cop was driving by his house when he though someone threw a rock at his car. He stopped, got out, and pounded on this guys door. The guy, thinking someone was breaking in, started to wake up and get his gun. While he was making his way to the front door, the cop went around back, climbed an 8 foot block fence, then entered this guys lania.
The guy found no one at the front door, but turned around and found someone on his lanai shining a flashlight through the glass windows. Thinking the robbers were going to break the glass, he fired at the flashlight, hitting the cop in the chest.
The cop, luckily had his vest on, and the guy was of course arrested for shooting the cop. At his trial, before the jury started their decision, the judge reminded the jury of Florida's Stand your ground laws, that the cop was on his lanai without warrant or probable cause, and that Florida laws considered your lanai part of your home, including it in Florida's self defence laws.
The jury found him not guilty.
There was a link to this on my local paper's website but they have since changed their site and I can't find anything on it that pertains to it.
Seeing as Jeff wants case law even though Florida's senate and Florida's top gun lawyer's interpretation aren't good enough.
In the spring of 2006 a man in Miami shot a cop that was on his lanai. The man had been burglarized several times in the past and purchased a handgun for protection. The cop was driving by his house when he though someone threw a rock at his car. He stopped, got out, and pounded on this guys door. The guy, thinking someone was breaking in, started to wake up and get his gun. While he was making his way to the front door, the cop went around back, climbed an 8 foot block fence, then entered this guys lania.
The guy found no one at the front door, but turned around and found someone on his lanai shining a flashlight through the glass windows. Thinking the robbers were going to break the glass, he fired at the flashlight, hitting the cop in the chest.
The cop, luckily had his vest on, and the guy was of course arrested for shooting the cop. At his trial, before the jury started their decision, the judge reminded the jury of Florida's Stand your ground laws, that the cop was on his lanai without warrant or probable cause, and that Florida laws considered your lanai part of your home, including it in Florida's self defence laws.
The jury found him not guilty.
There was a link to this on my local paper's website but they have since changed their site and I can't find anything on it that pertains to it.
Seeing as Jeff wants case law even though Florida's senate and Florida's top gun lawyer's interpretation aren't good enough.
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