Debunked: Limp wristing is a valid excuse for malfunctions

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BrokenArrow,

Were all the guns tested during the trials lubed the same (same oil and/or grease applied in same/similar locations)?

NASCAR
 
Dunno; documents I have don't go into that kind of detail.

If it's like other gummint testing I have seen, they did 'em all the same or followed the manufacturers directions (which would have had to meet gummint specs. IOW, not too finicky for mil-spec).
 
:p Gotta Breathe ... Gotta Breathe

This thread is the funniest thing I've read in quite a while! I was laughing so hard I went into coughing fits! Everyone is so set in their opinions and not willing to budge in the slightest and everyone is giving stories on how they've made this gun and that gun and the other gun malfunction do to chasing the empty with the pistol and the other people are telling the first people how what they just did isn't possible. I'm sorry but I find all this extremely funny. I tend to go by one rule in this kind of situation ... "If you can do it, it happens, if you can't do it, be thankful."

Off Topic:
Now, as long as I mentioned laughing till you can't breathe, now that I think of it, there's a story you should read that might make you do the same. The story is kinda long but worth every second it takes to finish reading it. And no it doesn't have anything to do with 1911's, limp wristing or stovepiping. Just read it, you won't be sorry.

http://www.ihos.com/steakhouse.html
 
I tend to go by one rule in this kind of situation ... "If you can do it, it happens, if you can't do it, be thankful."
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What's funny is people who have supposedly read this thread and still haven't figured out this discussion isn't about if a weapon will malfunction due to the way a shooter holds it, we all know it can. What's being debunked here is that all auto loaders will fail if you hold them with a "limp wrist".

But the chances are if you've read 7 pages of this discussion and still haven't figured this out on your own, my explaining it one more time most likely isn't going to help.

Perhaps if you spent less time laughing and more time reading you wouldn't tickle yourself so much. :D
 
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What's being debunked here is that all auto loaders will fail if you hold them with a "limp wrist".
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What I am not understanding is what has been "debunked?"

Maybe if we saw video's with someone limpwristing those pistols then we might get somewhere.;)
 
I suspect no matter what test is done, you'll continue to claim the test is invalid.

This weekend, weather permitting, you will see videos of new tests done in different ways. When the gun(s) work I'll be looking forward to your excuses. :D
 
Oh, and my beard can take the chrome off a bumper (unfortunately). I'm not too worried about my testosterone levels.
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dang I envy you...

This reminds me of a story..

I was 12, and my uncle from AZ came to town, bringing the latest and greatest handgun at the time...a Glock. I seem to remember it being a .40 cal.
So, tho it's cold, off to the shooting range we go, snow be damned.
My uncle shoots it. My dad shoots it. Multiple clips.
I shoot it. Stovepipe. I don't have enough strength to work the action, so they clear it, shrug, and hand it back. BANG. Stovepipe.
They clear it again. BANG. BANG. Stovepipe. My uncle finished off the mag with no problems.
As posted by many folks on here, THE SAME PISTOL SHOT BY 2 OR 3 folks REACTS differently TO EACH PERSON.
you mean to tell me that's the gun? there's no less then a dozen such cases in this thread. Personal experience from multiple sources is hard to beat.
a few folks have touched on the idea of the gun PIVOTING from the bottom of the grip. in your vids, you hold the gun fairly high. I didn't see much recoil there...then again, I AM used to a Glock.
The concept of the PIVOT here is key I think...because a gun will not have that leverage if it is shot "just laying there".
Wanna try something? When you shoot, jerk the pistol BACK. (not up)
The idea I think, is the idea that the GUN FRAME accelerates almost as fast and far the SLIDE, (from the recoil)
thus causing the slide NOT to cycle fully. Think about it.
The basis of the autoloader is that the frame stays relatively still, while the slide moves back. If the frame moves WITH THE SLIDE the slide does not move as far in relation to the frame. Thus, the stovepipe.
Me? I'm a firm believer that some guns can be limp wristed better then others.
Why? I've done it.
I didn't limp-wrist stovepipe either of my Glocks when I had them.
Yet I stovepiped almost every shot out of my uncles. My dad and uncle didn't stovepipe a single one. Keep in mind, I was a VERY scrawny 12-year old.
That right there cannot be explained by ammo, or the firearm.
Unless you are willing to calculate the odds of one box of ammo (50) having 5-6 bad ones that only I got in a row, and somehow the rest of the shooters didn't get.
Do I think limp wristing is the only cause for a malf? heck no.
My dad's Buckmark .22 jammed like a bad mother for a while...
it HATES Federal ammo. CCI or nothing for that bad boy. I won't even suggest
that a Buckmark could be limpwristed.
What I am not understanding is what has been "debunked?"
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heck, mebbe me either, but I gave it a shot too.
I won't hold my breath.
*dons flame suit*
GP
 
As painful (and at times amusing) as it was, I read the whole thread.

I will add a bit of anatomy to perhaps lend some clarification (or not, I'll give it a shot).:uhoh:

First off...I don't know what exact hand/wrist orientation is officially considered "limp wrist" if there even is an exact position.

Second, the wrist joint cannot be "locked" in a centered position so therefore every human shoots with their wrists "unlocked." The wrist moves all 3 possible directions a joint can (bending, twisting and rocking). The alignment in the wrist that achieves the best length-tension relationship (strongest) in the muscles that support the joint is basically in the middle of each of the 3 axes.

The wrist is only held in any position by the muscles unless it is at it's limit in one or more directions in which case ligaments and tendons will be at their limit as well.

Bringing us to your videos. Your wrist is properly aligned meaning it is in a neutral position and aligned with your ulna. So, when you fire, the recoil goes straight back through the web of your hand, to the wrist, to the ulna...then because you aren't gripping the gun and you aren't tensing your muscles, the gun gets a lot of movement after.

I would guess that "limp wristing" involves taking the joint out of proper alignment (the best length-tension relationship) so the joint (and corresponding recoil impulse) isn't aligned with the ulna.

If you tilt your wrist forward (ulnar deviation), perhaps turn it in a little (flexion) you will be out of alignment with the ulna and out of a strong muscle length-tension relationship in two directions. I would guess the odds of a "limp wrist" failure would go up drastically. This is what would happen if someone tilted their wrist down and to the left in anticipation of recoil.
 
Without reading the whole 7 pages I can tell you I have seen different people shoot the Beretta 92 FS and cause jams due to limp wristing. It may be more than just the wrist flipping though. I'm inclined to believe the way they held it might have been low on the grip which allows the firearm to torque against the hand even more. My young sons and a women were the ones I saw it happen to. Their whole forearms flew upward and you could see the gun fliupping in their hands when they shot and the gun jammed like mad while they shot. I don't see that happening in your videos, so I have to think that is a component in the malfunctions. It's not just a loose wrist, but loose elbow lock, as well as a general looseness in their entire body....typical of a novice who is not aware of how to properly grip a firearm. For an experienced shooter to try to mimick that would be difficult due to you trying to fight your instinct to shoot properly. You find a weak newbie and have them do it and I bet you'll see a different result. To fire the pistol remotely without any support on it, like the pistol lying on a piece of carpet would be interesting to see as well.
 
What I find interesting is the 160 degree turn the original poster has made from his first posting to his next to last ..........

His first post claims:

I've held firm in the belief that if a gun doesn't, work regardless of how loosely you hold it, there's something wrong with the gun.
Click to expand...

Now he later states :

......this discussion isn't about if a weapon will malfunction due to the way a shooter holds it, we all know it can........
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I would say that's quite a turn around ......... :confused:

What the original poster wants you to look past, is the fact that a shooter can "absorb" enough energy from the weapon's recoil -- due to improper grip -- to cause a malfunction. He tries to equate a pistol barely being held in the hand, as the same action as a shooter's improper grip that absorbs energy of the recoil. Of course, these are not equal. So yes, a pistol might cycle if left freestanding { for lack of a better word } after pulling the trigger .....but that is no where near the same thing as a shooter using his hands and arms to absorb [or more accurately - redirect] the recoil energy to cause a feeding malfuction.

The only thing that this poster has proven ........... is that a semi-auto ...... when left free standing ...........may cycle itself after firing. He has NOT proven that all his pistols will cycle and feed reliably, irregardless of what a shooter does to the weapon during the Slide's blow back phase. IMHO

JF.
 
Intresting thread. I could shoot my G19, with slightly down powerd handloads, and the gun would run 100%, with the empties landing a few feet to my right. I hand the gun to my 10yr old son, using the same ammo, and got stovepipe after stovepipe, the empies that did eject, fall on his feet. Its all in the way you hold the gun. If you dont lock your elbow, than your arm acts like a shock absorber, causing malfunctions. All steel guns seem to have less issues. But this is just my observations.(YMMV)
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A+

We get at least one shooter every week who induces failures in the Glocks we rent. The exchange goes something like this:

Bang.
&^%%$!!!!

Bang.
&*$^%$!!!

Bang.
$#%*)?>!!!

"This gun doesn't work."
"Let me try that."

Bang.
Bang.
Bang.
Bang.
Bang.
Bang.
Bang.
Bang.
Bang.
Bang.

Limpwristing could be called something else to make the action sound like it is not an insult. Rolling the pistol is more accurate and not accusatory.

In order for a semi automatic to work, the slide has to move backwards at a certain velocity in relation to the frame. The slide has to overcome its own inertia, friction with other parts, and the pressure of any springs that must be compressed. The key to this operation is not the velocity of the slide under recoil, it is the difference between the velocity of the slide and the frame under recoil.

In sturmgewehr's videos, the frame clearly meets resistance against his palm. The pistols are not rolling. Some people roll pistols by using a weak grip in their wrist, others do it in the elbow. When we get someone who keeps suffering these jams, we test the pistol to make sure it works. Once that is eliminated as a problem, the ammunition has also been tested and that leaves the shooter as the cause of the problem.

I don't like the word limpwristing because it sounds like an insult, but it's a common term and it gets used. The shooter is not resisting the rearward and upward motion of the pistol under recoil. Say that three times fast.

Once we show the shooter how to grip the thing and resist the recoil properly, the jams stop.
 
I agree. I don't see limp wristing in the video. I see a relaxed grip. I shoot with a very relaxed grip and have never had a problem with limp wristing even with sensitive guns like my kel tecs. His grip is loose but the gun is recoiling straight back into his palm and his wrist it solid. No limp wrist there. Take the gun OUT of alignment with your arm. Hold it from the side and let the gun twist in you hand. You may see a much different result.
 
Never seen it before

My good friend took his son out to shoot....adopted stepson. Never fired a gun before. At the end of the day he was able to shoot a handgun accurately at a metal swinging target with a 45!

However, he had trouble with jams. It was somehow the way he held it or the way he let it recoil as it functioned flawlessly for my friend and I. I think this is what is called limp wrist and it had something to do with 'after the shot' recoil control....just never seen that before: age 57.
 
I had a new production Norinco Tokerov that shot great in my strong hand and would stovepipe in my weak hand until I learned to hold it a little firmer.

There, that should settle this for once and all... right? :banghead:
 
His first post claims:

Quote:
I've held firm in the belief that if a gun doesn't, work regardless of how loosely you hold it, there's something wrong with the gun.
Now he later states :

Quote:
......this discussion isn't about if a weapon will malfunction due to the way a shooter holds it, we all know it can........
I would say that's quite a turn around .........
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Could we try just a little harder to twist words? LOL

1) I never said handguns can't malfunction when "limp wristed".
2) I did say that if a gun does malfunction while being limp wristed, there is something wrong with the gun and you should find one that works regardless how how you hold it.

Now, if you take both posts made above in context and not a clip of half of a sentence, there isn't any "turn around".

We know there are guns you can cause to malfunction by limp wristing, we've all seen it and I've posted video evidence of it happening before.

Jesh.
 
I think limpwristing is an actual issue.. i've seen it with my 1911's AND my XD-9. I fired 2,000+ rounds through my xd without a single problem before I ever let anyone else shoot it. On a range trip with some buddies, the gun proceeded to jam and have ejection problems every few rounds when being used by the guy I loaned it to. I took it back and could fire multiple mags with zero failures, then i'd hand it back and it'd start jamming again. That's not a coincidence.
 
I think limpwristing is an actual issue.. i've seen it with my 1911's AND my XD-9. I fired 2,000+ rounds through my xd without a single problem before I ever let anyone else shoot it. On a range trip with some buddies, the gun proceeded to jam and have ejection problems every few rounds when being used by the guy I loaned it to. I took it back and could fire multiple mags with zero failures, then i'd hand it back and it'd start jamming again. That's not a coincidence.
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Gee wiz, another one. :D

...and right here on this page in post 154 we have this.

What's funny is people who have supposedly read this thread and still haven't figured out this discussion isn't about if a weapon will malfunction due to the way a shooter holds it, we all know it can. What's being debunked here is that all auto loaders will fail if you hold them with a "limp wrist".

But the chances are if you've read 7 pages of this discussion and still haven't figured this out on your own, my explaining it one more time most likely isn't going to help. :p
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I suspect no matter what test is done, you'll continue to claim the test is invalid.

This weekend, weather permitting, you will see videos of new tests done in different ways. When the gun(s) work I'll be looking forward to your excuses.
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Cool, if you show some actual limp wristing, that would be a start. Of course, that will just prove that limp wristing with your particular guns either is or is not a problem.

FYI, you have been the one making all sorts of excuses for not limp wristing, heck, for not even understanding what it is.

Given that you have already committed so much time and energy to saying limp wristing doesn't exist as a problem or doesn't exist as a problem with properly designed guns, I would not trust that you would be willing to post results contrary to what you believe. You have already told us the guns will work which indicates that your testing won't be unbiased.
 
Given that you have already committed so much time and energy to saying limp wristing doesn't exist as a problem or doesn't exist as a problem with properly designed guns, I would not trust that you would be willing to post results contrary to what you believe. You have already told us the guns will work which indicates that your testing won't be unbiased.
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You obviously don't know me at all. But keep talking, you sound awfully enlightened.

I've already made calls to my buddies who should be off tomorrow so we can go shooting and have someone shoot video. If we go, I'll post video.

For you to call me a liar or to suggest I'm dishonest isn't very "highroad" of you by the way.
 
To end this crud, we need a neutral 3rd party to shoot one of your "perfect" guns and demonstrate that it is possible for the way a pistol is held to cause FTF. Pretty simple eh'? Until that happens, give it a freakin' rest dude!
 
methinks this gentleman's test and post has proved quite a lot about him, but not on the subject he declares
 
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