Do we scare off would be shooters

[huntsman]

I don't care about "new" shooters nor do I care about public ranges and their rules.

What I do care about is safety and rules being used as a method of restriction in gun ownership and usage.

 

[Sam1911]

I don't care about "new" shooters nor do I care about public ranges and their rules.

What I do care about is safety and rules being used as a method of restriction in gun ownership and usage.

Can you explain what you mean by that? I think I might agree with you, but I'm not sure which way you meant which part of that.

 

[Shaq]

I see what you're saying and I hear it often but I'll rebut.

Enough perfectly "smart" people with good "common sense" don't grasp all the nuances of gun safety. "Hey, it's unloaded," is a perfectly logical, common sense thing to say. It isn't acceptable. It isn't safe enough. It gets people killed.

The idea of layering safety measures -- which is why we have four rules when any one of them is capable of saving a life -- is not perfectly intuitive. This is a construct we as a society of shooters have developed over many years. "Common sense" doesn't give you that.

There's also a strong element of group-think, peer influence, that will shape a shooter's habits -- for better or worse. And if someone has not had some figure with authority above that of the current peer group lay down the law about firearms safety, then there's almost no way that group, or any individual in it, is going to rise above bad, dangerous habits. As they say, "None of us is as dumb as all of us."

If you bought a gun, read the instruction manual, never got safety training and you've shot for 42 years and never endangered anyone, never violated any of the 4 rules, never had a moment that could have ended badly, well, that's great! Hats off to you. You're a rare one. There's no way on earth I'd recommend your example as a good course of action for a new shooter.

Yeah, if you've come up in a shooting family, or you learned to shoot in the military, or you started right off joining a competitive shooting discipline with plenty of good peer mentors around, maybe you don't need to take a safety class. Maybe. (There's plenty and way more than plenty examples of all folks from all of those backgrounds who exhibit terrible habits.) Expecting people to be able to figure out and properly apply the safety rules out in the real world, from what they picked up reading the instruction manual of their new .22 would be .... well, a bit part of the problem we see at our shooting clubs and ranges these days.

I've never been in the military, no shooting background, I'm the only one in my family that ever owned guns. I bought my first gun only to carry while process serving & for the house, but decided I enjoyed shooting. I don't think I'm a rare person.

I've seen "Trained" people (including police officers) handle guns recklessly. In fact, one uniformed police officer negligently fired his gun in the store I was working in. He wanted different sights installed on his 1911. He pulled it out of a pouch with his finger on the trigger & the hammer cocked. He kept sweeping me with the muzzle & he chuckled when I moved out of the way. The bullet went through 8 display cases & missed the store owner's 14-year-old son by a few inches. The first words out of his mouth were, "How'd that happen?" To which I responded, "Your finger was on the trigger, you moron." The store's owner (another moron) also fired a gun in the store.

I'll say it again; training never fixes stupid.

 

[Warp]

I agree with that -- as long as they can be safe.

But I've also seen beginners who might start with enthusiasm for shooting get frustrated when they don't immediately perform as well as they think they should. And I've seen them get frustrated when either (1) they start to believe that doing better is dependent on having the latest "super-wiz-bang" which they can't afford; or (2) getting the latest "super-wiz-bang" doesn't immediately improve their performance.

Absolutely.

One example that perfectly illustrates this and sticks in my head over the rest for some reason...a family of three at an Appleseed...the teenage son was rather frustrated at his relatively large groups (still identifiable groups on Saturday though, mind you), and his exact words came out to "I should be able to put every one in the black because I have a scope that will do it."

I think, if you ask in the right places, you'll see a lot of people, including myself, recommend a new rifle shooter (to be specific) get a basic rifle with good simple sights (like tech sights or a fixed low power scope), a sling, ammo, mags, and training...learn the fundamentals on something simple...because it's all you need...and in fact, having more can just get in the way.

But some people like the OP might think that's too much because mags and ammo and training take time and money and expense. But what I see put people off is frustrating when their big high power scope and "match" or "target" variety bull barrel slick light trigger rifle don't instantly make them good marksmen. Training, ammo, and perfect practice is what makes perfect.

 

[Shaq]

"Common sense" is not only uncommon, but is often incorrect.

How do you get the genius elite activity junk from recommendations for training? I would recommend that everybody who is new to driving take a driver's education course too, does that mean driving is an elite activity for geniuses? No, it means that you don't know what you don't know, and training and knowledge acquisition will really help you get good quickly and safely.

What kind of instructor are you that you can be instructor without ever having received any training yourself?



But really, since when were things like focusing on the front sight, immediate and remedial action drills, proper grip and stance, proper prone or kneeling or standing positions, reload methods and pros/cons, natural point of aim, respiratory pause, rifleman's cadence, and more..."common sense"?


As far as I can tell common sense says to load birdshot in your pump shotgun and shoot violent life threatening attackers/intruders in the leg once.

Nope. It means that driving is far more complicated than shooting & gun safety. Not a valid comparison.

 

[Sam1911]

Training never fixes stupid? No? But training can set and build good habits that keep us from learning to be stupid.

Yes, that cop and your store owner were complacent and thought it couldn't happen to them. It could. It wasn't because they were stupid. It was because they didn't have good habits enforced and reinforced by those around them.

A person doesn't shoot a gun mistakenly because they are "stupid." And being "smart" doesn't mean that they won't make a terrible mistake like that.


All that being said, yes those two guys made mistakes EVEN THOUGH they were presumably trained to do better.

Imagine them -- and thousands of others out there -- NOT trained how to be safe with guns. Being "stupid" is a learned behavior. Just like being "smart" is.

 

[Warp]

And, these days, some of the biggest complainers I know are the old guys who came up in the day where the trigger finger was always seen on or near the trigger, and there was little to no regulation of most ranges and no mandatory hunter safety courses.

Oh boy do I hate this one.

And you know what? When somebody who says a lot of things the OP has says a lot of the things he has...I picture that. Rule #3. ugh. Go to almost any gun shop counter or handgun counter at a big box store when it's busy and chances are if somebody is to the right of you (for right handed folks), there is going to be a guy who "knows what he is doing" holding a pistol across his body pointed at you with his finger on the trigger. But hey it's unloaded so it's o----no it's not, and I guarantee they do the same thing when it's loaded because handling habits are handling habits.

 

[Sam1911]

Nope. It means that driving is far more complicated than shooting & gun safety. Not a valid comparison.

That is a completely unsupportable assertion.

Press gas pedal, go fast.
Press brake, slow down.
Use your signals.
Obey traffic laws.
Apply these principles to practical situations.

Treat every gun as if it is loaded.
Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot.
Don't aim a gun at anything you aren't ready to destroy.
Know your target and what's beyond it.
Apply these principles to practical situations.


If you feel that the complexity or the stakes involved with either of these are not equivalent, that speaks worrisome volumes.

 

[Shaq]

I can't tell you how strongly I disagree with this post. Like anything else, gun handling is a learned skill. Without proper training from somewhere (a friend, a class, the military), It's a lot harder to learn the skills you need to be safe and effective.

I completely disagree that common sense is all you need. When you learned to drive, did you learn solely based on your common sense? When you learned to write, did your common sense teach you? Here's the thing, for many new shooters, all they know about guns is from what they see on TV and in movies. That's why their "common sense" tells them to put their finger on the trigger the moment they pick up a gun, and also why their "common sense" doesn't drum into them to always subconsciously be aware of where the muzzle is pointing. And their "common sense" won't tell them the proper way to hold a firearm, and they sure won't learn it from watching actors.

Sure, the more common sense someone has, the faster they'll learn the basics of gun safety, but a little bit of training can do far more for the average shooter than anything else can. You say you've been an instructor for five years, but I highly doubt that's full time at an actual training facility; because if it was, you'd most likely have the opposite opinion. I'm not an instructor and I've only been in the business for 4 years or so, but it didn't take me long to realize how much more training the average shooter needs. And that includes myself; once I started working day-in and day-out with instructors and other shooters who were more experienced than I was, I realized that I had a lot more to learn than I thought I did.

As stated previously, driving a car is far more complicated than safe gun handling or shooting. Not a valid comparison. And, case in point: Most people who have a driver's license had "training." Did that automatically make them safe drivers? Example: I've been driving safely for 46 years. My sister pays THREE TIMES what I pay for insurance & I have a more-expensive car than she does. We both had training & passed written & driving tests. But she lacks the common sense needed to drive safely & consequently has frequent accidents, tickets, fines & DMV hearings. Her training didn't help her.

 

[WVsig]

We as a community drive away a lot of people who are new to guns. Over over enthusiasm and at times single mindedness turns off the person who is somewhere in the middle thinking about gun ownership. It is not because we demand safe gun handling and the adherence to the 4 rules but for other reasons IMHO.

Many people in this country for good or for bad do not see gun ownership as a cornerstone of their existence. They own a gun or are considering getting one for any number of reasons. Hunting, recreational target shooting, self defense, novelty, gun games etc.... It is not a passion for them and the extent of many of our members passion can be a huge turnoff. I have seen tons of people get run off here and on other forums because they did not share or conform to the singular viewpoint which dominates the discussion here.

It is not just here but on so many forums. Sometimes we forget that not all of the world sees the world through the front sight of a gun. Someone who is just dipping their toe into this world often views what we call passion as something less positive.

We are often too quick to run off people who do not see the world in the same manner. IMHO. YMMV

That said everyone should know the 4 rules and apply them to every interaction they have with firearms. There are times that we knowing violate them for one reason or another, for example when checking out a used revolver, but it is only the fact that one is grounded in the 4 rules that we do it "knowingly" after triple checking the weapon. There is no reason not to religiously follow the 4 rules.

 

[Shaq]

That is a completely unsupportable assertion.

Press gas pedal, go fast.
Press brake, slow down.
Use your signals.
Obey traffic laws.
Apply these principles to practical situations.

Treat every gun as if it is loaded.
Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot.
Don't aim a gun at anything you aren't ready to destroy.
Know your target and what's beyond it.
Apply these principles to practical situations.


If you feel that the complexity or the stakes involved with either of these are not equivalent, that speaks worrisome volumes.

Feel free to "worry" all you like. My driving and shooting record speaks for itself.

If you're concerned about the lack of "training" for shooters, perhaps you should push toward required training to own a firearm.

 

[Warp]

I've never been in the military, no shooting background, I'm the only one in my family that ever owned guns. I bought my first gun only to carry while process serving & for the house, but decided I enjoyed shooting. I don't think I'm a rare person.

I've seen "Trained" people (including police officers) handle guns recklessly. In fact, one uniformed police officer negligently fired his gun in the store I was working in. He wanted different sights installed on his 1911. He pulled it out of a pouch with his finger on the trigger & the hammer cocked. He kept sweeping me with the muzzle & he chuckled when I moved out of the way. The bullet went through 8 display cases & missed the store owner's 14-year-old son by a few inches. The first words out of his mouth were, "How'd that happen?" To which I responded, "Your finger was on the trigger, you moron." The store's owner (another moron) also fired a gun in the store.

I'll say it again; training never fixes stupid.

If you hang around "gun people" long enough you'll realize that most police officers are not gun people, and us gun people are well aware of this fact.

Many if not most of your average peace officer just are not gun people. They don't get as much training as they should (budget and time), and they are often used as examples of something gone wrong or done wrong, because there are so many of them and they handle firearms more frequently than non-gun people who don't have to carry a gun for their job, so there is simply more opportunity for a mistake. Not to mention the stress and unpredictable dynamics in many of their gun handling situations.

Most avid shooters are better shooters than the average cop, too. But don't ask those avid shooters to safely and correctly cuff somebody or navigate a strangers' domestic dispute lol.




That said, the incident you describe would not fly these days anywhere that I am aware of. Not at all. And that is more than the typical cop being a non-gun person...that is just something that should not ever happen, and fortunately, seems to be extremely rare from our police officers.

 

[Shaq]

Oh boy do I hate this one.

And you know what? When somebody who says a lot of things the OP has says a lot of the things he has...I picture that. Rule #3. ugh. Go to almost any gun shop counter or handgun counter at a big box store when it's busy and chances are if somebody is to the right of you (for right handed folks), there is going to be a guy who "knows what he is doing" holding a pistol across his body pointed at you with his finger on the trigger. But hey it's unloaded so it's o----no it's not, and I guarantee they do the same thing when it's loaded because handling habits are handling habits.

And, whenever that happened, I always used the opportunity to explain why they must never do that. No yelling, insulting, just a calm explanation & it always did it. I always explained, "Humans are creatures of habit. If you're careless about where you point the gun when it's unloaded, you'll be careless when it's loaded too." And almost every new customer said to me later: "Ya know, I'm glad you waited on me...most employees just yell & I'm already intimidated as a new gun owner & they only make it worse."

 

[Warp]

Nope. It means that driving is far more complicated than shooting & gun safety. Not a valid comparison.

Is it really, though?

Even if you put people in a controlled low speed "easy" environment, like a parking lot...many are still going to do better with some education and training.

I can't tell you how many times I've been in a parking lot, on foot or in my vehicle, and the other person was frustrated with me because they thought I was in the way and that they couldn't fit...when they had a whole hell of a lot more room than they needed to get where they were going. But they were so bad at it...

How about the people that will be coming at you head on using a 2 lane road, and they swerve partially into your lane all of the sudden before making a right hand turn off the road...because they think they have to turn out and make that big swing in order make the turn...education and training would fix this.

Then there are all the things teenagers do, many of which are because they are stupid, but many of which are because they are untrained and inexperienced...and more extensive training would mean they don't have to learn their lessons the hard way.

Now take it out to the high speed high stakes world...yikes. Training would help. Highly recommended.

 

[Shaq]

If you hang around "gun people" long enough you'll realize that most police officers are not gun people, and us gun people are well aware of this fact.

Many if not most of your average peace officer just are not gun people. They don't get as much training as they should (budget and time), and they are often used as examples of something gone wrong or done wrong, because there are so many of them and they handle firearms more frequently than non-gun people who don't have to carry a gun for their job, so there is simply more opportunity for a mistake. Not to mention the stress and unpredictable dynamics in many of their gun handling situations.

Most avid shooters are better shooters than the average cop, too. But don't ask those avid shooters to safely and correctly cuff somebody or navigate a strangers' domestic dispute lol.




That said, the incident you describe would not fly these days anywhere that I am aware of. Not at all. And that is more than the typical cop being a non-gun person...that is just something that should not ever happen, and fortunately, seems to be extremely rare from our police officers.

Oh, it flew just fine. The cop's supervisor arrived & fabricated everything that happened, saying in his report, "No one was in danger." I received a copy of the incident report in the mail. It was very entertaining reading it - especially the part that read: "While I was handling the gun it did, in fact fire. I don't know what caused it to fire but it may have fired "unconshosly." Ever heard of a gun firing unconshosly?" Ever seen it spelled that way?

 

[Warp]

Oh, it flew just fine. The cop's supervisor arrived & fabricated everything that happened, saying in his report, "No one was in danger." I received a copy of the incident report in the mail. It was very entertaining reading it - especially the part that read: "While I was handling the gun it did, in fact fire. I don't know what caused it to fire but it may have fired "unconshosly." Ever heard of a gun firing unconshosly?" Ever seen it spelled that way?

That's too bad. I'm wondering when and where that happened and what LEA it was, though.

I'm also now wondering how and why that relates to your purported belief that we are, I don't know, too strict and overbearing about safety rules with new or potentially new shooters..?

 

[Sam1911]

Feel free to "worry" all you like. My driving and shooting record speaks for itself.

Great! You're either very fortunate, or you were a bit more trained than you're letting on. Not in classes, not in the military, but by dint of being (again) fortunate enough to fall in with people who you could learn from, how to handle guns in practical situations without endangering anyone.

It certainly isn't because you're just less "stupid" than anybody else. That's just not how humans work.

If you're concerned about the lack of "training" for shooters, perhaps you should push toward required training to own a firearm.

I AM concerned about the number of shooters who do not seek good training in firearms safety.

(Whether they ever learn to hit anything, or how many extra decades it takes them to find competence because they won't avail themselves of a teacher's help, is their problem.)

However, I oppose mandatory firearms training for one VERY simple reason. I see mandated ANYTHING as an infringement on the right and a stumbling block put in place by the government, through which one might be denied the free exercise of that right. Freedom isn't "safe" and the cost to freedom of a government requirement is not worth it any benefit which might be realized.

Not because training is not an excellent idea which we should promote for all shooters we meet.




May I ask what you instruct in, and why? It does seem an incongruous stance for an instructor to take that firearms safety training is without quite serious benefit.

 

[Warp]

If you're concerned about the lack of "training" for shooters, perhaps you should push toward required training to own a firearm.

How about NO.

I'm still curious as to what you instruct and how you became an instructor without receiving any training yourself.

 

[Shaq]

That's too bad. I'm wondering when and where that happened and what LEA it was, though.

I'm also now wondering how and why that relates to your purported belief that we are, I don't know, too strict and overbearing about safety rules with new or potentially new shooters..?

Ventura County Sheriff. It relates because it's an example of the myth that "Training is needed for safety."

 

[Shaq]

How about NO.

I'm still curious as to what you instruct and how you became an instructor without receiving any training yourself.

Certification as an instructor. Demonstrating gun safety & proficiency at a range. Not training to be an instructor. I was not an instructor at "Gunsite" or "Lethal Force Institute" or "Front Sight" or any "advanced" training facility.

 

[Warp]

Ventura County Sheriff. It relates because it's an example of the myth that "Training is needed for safety."

Nobody said training guarantees safety, so that incident disproves nothing.

Certification as an instructor. Demonstrating gun safety & proficiency at a range. Not training to be an instructor. I was not an instructor at "Gunsite" or "Lethal Force Institute" or "Front Sight" or any "advanced" training facility.

What were you? Why do you tell us you are/were an instructor without receiving training but then avoid telling us what instructor you were/are?

 

[gbran]

I don't believe firearm safety training scares off most folks. I also think it takes both teaching and reminding folks of their responsibility to themselves and others to adhere to teaching they have had. And I also think that training is critical, but most accidents (IMO) are because someone did something they shouldn't have done, not due to lack of training. People have to keep up their awareness.

 

[BLB68]

Ventura County Sheriff. It relates because it's an example of the myth that "Training is needed for safety."

Maybe you're hung up on the word "training"? I can't believe that you honestly think safe gun handling is simple common sense. People do NOT learn the layered approach to gun safety in the Four Rules without some exposure to them, even if it's reading them in their gun's owner's manual.

A lot of people do recommend training to absolute beginners, but it's usually by starting with something like the NRA basic course or Appleseed, which are very reasonably priced and usually available locally, not shipping them off to LFI, Gunsite or wherever. Suggestions for more advanced training are usually made to those who specifically request resources on becoming better at one aspect of shooting or another.

 

[Mike OTDP]

We need to separate basic safety, range courtesy, and proficiency.

Safety/courtesy are mandatory. But also require no more than 10 minutes. After that, it's ingraining the habits.

Proficiency? The biggest headache I keep seeing is people not mastering fundamentals. If you go read the combat shooting books from the 1970s and early 1980s, they all said the same thing.

Shoot bullseye pistol for at least one year.

The precision disciplines build a solid foundation from which you can go in a variety of directions...but without that foundation in sight alignment, shot release, and follow-through, you'll get nowhere.

But there's no profit in it. Add in the refusal to work with a decent .22 pistol (and the dearth of decent .22s to work with), and we wind up with people thinking that shooting is a sport for fanatics. Instead of something that can be enjoyed by just about anyone.

 

[Shaq]

We need to separate basic safety, range courtesy, and proficiency.

Safety/courtesy are mandatory. But also require no more than 10 minutes. After that, it's ingraining the habits.

Proficiency? The biggest headache I keep seeing is people not mastering fundamentals. If you go read the combat shooting books from the 1970s and early 1980s, they all said the same thing.

Shoot bullseye pistol for at least one year.

The precision disciplines build a solid foundation from which you can go in a variety of directions...but without that foundation in sight alignment, shot release, and follow-through, you'll get nowhere.

But there's no profit in it. Add in the refusal to work with a decent .22 pistol (and the dearth of decent .22s to work with), and we wind up with people thinking that shooting is a sport for fanatics. Instead of something that can be enjoyed by just about anyone.

Quite true. After shooting bullseye for a few months, I started working on steel plates at 30 ft. I dry-fire practiced at home for around 30 minutes/day with a D.A. revolver until I could rapid fire it D.A. with a nickel on the barrel without it falling off. I forgot where I read about that exercise, but it's very effective for trigger squeeze. At the range, after a few visits, I was able to hit the 6 plates in 3 - 5 seconds which (IMO) is sufficient for defensive use. I actually shoot a D.A. revolver a bit faster than an auto, probably because that's what I started with.