Does a gun-ammo manufactuer industrial complex exist?

[TTv2]

I was watching something about 7.62x54r recently and in the video the guy mentioned that while Mosin rifles are unspectacular in regards to accuracy, the 7.62x54r case is very well designed and that it is a shame that gun manufacturers in the US have never bothered to make more modern rifles for the chambering.

That got me to thinking that there's a sort of test gun companies have to determine if making a gun in a certain chambering is worth it if the ammo is "rare" and the test is: Does Federal make ammo for it?

Federal doesn't make any 7.62x54r, .32 ACP, etc. so US gun companies by in large avoid making guns in those calibers, even though they are quite popular.

I mean, nothing else explains why Ruger would pull the 5.7 rabbit out of its hat considering it has been around 30 years and the AWB expired in 2004 other than they saw that Federal makes ammo for it. Forget that .22 TCM is superior in shorter barrels than 5.7 is, forget that 7.62x25 is a bigger bullet that is still relatively fast and ammo costs less than 5.7 does, Federal makes 5.7 ammo and they helped Ruger sell a bunch of .327 revolvers, so both backs are getting scratched.

Yeah, sure, foreign ammo companies like PPU, Magtech, Tula, Wolf, etc. might make lots of cheap ammo for certain calibers that Federal doesn't, but to gun manufactures those ammo companies don't exist and neither does internet ammo sales. What you see on the shelf at Walmart (or use to) or your LGS is what's available, so they focus on guns to shoot ammo you can buy.

Conversely, ammo companies won't make ammo for guns that aren't popular or common, yet all the AK's and SKS' and Mosins out there you would think that Federal and Remington would start making ammo for those guns or in 7.62x39's case making steel case ammo that's better than the Eastern Europe stuff for maybe 10 cents more a round. Currently if a US ammo company makes a 7.62x39 ammo, it's a brass case premium hunting round that costs $1/round. People buy the cheap steel stuff because it's cheap, but if you give them a better option that's a bit more, but not terribly more, they will buy it.

Idk, I just get the sense that there's a lot of potential for US gun companies to make guns for certain calibers, but they're not gonna make those guns unless certain ammo companies make ammo for them.

 

[748]

US companies can't compete with surplus 7.62xCommie ammo or gun prices.

It's not too hard to make a cheaper version of an FN, there's 0 surplus ammo or guns in 5.7x28.

 

[TTv2]

US companies can't compete with surplus 7.62xCommie ammo or gun prices.

It's not too hard to make a cheaper version of an FN, there's 0 surplus ammo or guns in 5.7x28.

That surplus ammo is drying up, now most 7.62x54r is steel case junk, but for those who might have bought thousands of rounds of the surplus ammo in years past, don't you think people would buy a modern rifle that you could mount a standard scope on to and have a more accurate shooting rifle?

Heck, at the prices Mosins are going for, $350 for an Axis or a Ruger American in 7.62x54r is not a bad deal.

 

[Texas10mm]

Federal makes .32 ACP. Both a hydrashock and an American Eagle loading.

There's no money in 7.62x54R as there's still inexpensive surplus ammo running around, but there are companies that make brass cased hunting ammo for the cartridge.

Everything that 7.65X54R can do the .30-06 can do, the .308 comes very close...in a shorter action.

Federal makes 7.62x39 ammo.

Perhaps you should spend some time looking instead of bitchin'.

Next complaint?

 

[Dibbs]

IMO, it's not that complicated. It's simply ammo manufacturers competing for their share of the market, by gearing up whatever ammos are profitible,
at any given time.

 

[Dunross]

Everything that 7.65X54R can do the .30-06 can do, the .308 comes very close...in a shorter action.

The heart of the matter, in my opinion.

 

[FlSwampRat]

Everything that 7.65X54R can do the .30-06 can do, the .308 comes very close...in a shorter action.

Funny you mention the '06 when just a few days ago I got into a discussion with a friend who has bought the media's line about the AR-15 and I used the '06 as comparison. (more power, heavier more stable bullet, etc.)

Then Sunday a friend asked for a suggestion on a good hunting cartridge and I suggested the '06, having just refreshed myself on its ballistics for the discussion with the other friend.

Maybe the universe is trying to get me to buy an '06.

 

[BSA1]

Oh goody a deep state conspiracy thread.

Is the U.S. Government pressuring ammunition companies from making 7.62 x 54r ammunition to keep the unwashed masses from having enough ammunition to resist the government?

Or is the 7.62 x 54r popular only because 10’s of 1,000’s out-dated bolt action military surplus rifles were dumped on the market for only $100.00 so folks brought a cool old Commie rifle and sealed case of old Commie ammunition for less than $200.00. (I think I paid about $175.00 both). Which really means how any of those MN’s are being taken out and shot.

Ammunition and gun manufacturing is the reason I would go broke in a hurry. I thought a J-Frame revolver chambered in 32 Magnum was a sure fire winner for self-defense. The J-Frame is easily carried and concealed, fits many ladies hands, 6 rounds vs. 5 is a big improvement and the 32 Magnum offers good performance with less recoil compared to the 38 Special.

i also think the 41 Special deserves to have factory made guns and ammunition but what do I know.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Federal no longer manufacturers 7X64mm Brenneke factory ammo (I have two vintage boxes loaded with 160 grain Nosler Partition bullets). If this cartridge released in 1917 had been brought across the Atlantic in numbers shortly after WWI, the .270 Winchester and .280 Remington might not have ever been developed into standardized cartridges (never underestimate wildcatters). It's a well known hunting cartridge in Europe and Africa. Since it was never adopted by any military forces it remains a popular hunting cartridge in places where firearms chambered ever adopted by any military forces are, or were, banned for civilian use much less civilian ownership / possession.

More and more hunting rifles in 7X64mm are popping up for sale in the USA.

OP, how does the 7X64mm Brenneke factor in with the your observations and hypothesis?

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

I love my Mosins but the 7.62 x 54 is a rimmed cartridge, and if you look around, other than the .30-.30, there just aren't any rimmed rifle cartridges out there. Why would you invest in the technology to make something that either doesn't have a market yet or is a fading market.

 

[TTv2]

Federal no longer manufacturers 7X64mm Brenneke factory ammo (I have two vintage boxes loaded with 160 grain Nosler Partition bullets). If this cartridge released in 1917 had been brought across the Atlantic in numbers shortly after WWI, the .270 Winchester and .280 Remington might not have ever been developed into standardized cartridges (never underestimate wildcatters). It's a well known hunting cartridge in Europe and Africa. Since it was never adopted by any military forces it remains a popular hunting cartridge in places where firearms chambered ever adopted by any military forces are, or were, banned for civilian use much less civilian ownership / possession.

More and more hunting rifles in 7X64mm are popping up for sale in the USA.

OP, how does the 7X64mm Brenneke factor in with the your observations and hypothesis?

I would say if there were as many rifles in the US chambered for 7x64 Brenneke as there are Mosin Nagants, yeah, the ammo industry should get on that, but I doubt that there are that many 7x64 owners in the US relative to Mosin owners.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Highly probable there are more 7X64mm Brenneke rifles actually being shot and used for game hunting than 7.62X54R Moisin-Nagant rifles in the USA.

 

[TTv2]

I love my Mosins but the 7.62 x 54 is a rimmed cartridge, and if you look around, other than the .30-.30, there just aren't any rimmed rifle cartridges out there. Why would you invest in the technology to make something that either doesn't have a market yet or is a fading market.

Because the market is still very strong, even tho it's not as strong as it once was. People decrying that the Mosin is dead are likely the same types who come on here and make a new "Is the .40 dead?" thread every 6 weeks.

And for reloaders, that rim is very nice to have as it is the headspace meaning that case length is not as critical as it is with a rimless rifle round.

 

[TTv2]

Highly probable there are more 7X64mm Brenneke rifles actually being shot and used for game hunting than 7.62X54R Moisin-Nagant rifles in the USA.

What does hunting have to do with this? That said, if the Ruger American or Savage Axis were available in 7.62x54r, there would likely be a lot more of those being used for hunting than 7x64, which is my point of this thread: there are very popular calibers here in the US not being supported by the gun-ammo industrial complex.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Ammunition demand follows for rifles being fired. Are you claiming milsurp 7.62X54R rifles have great use in USA competition shooting to generate ammunition demand in the USA?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking

 

[TTv2]

Ammunition demand follows for rifles being fired. Are you claiming milsurp 7.62X54R rifles have great use in USA competition shooting to generate ammunition demand in the USA?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking

What's competition shooting with a milsurp got to do with this topic?

 

[Mr. Zorg]

You're deliberately skipping the connection between rifles being fired generating ammunition demand. Can you tell us all why you're studiously avoiding that?

I figured the link to critical thinking was a waste, but it's still available for your use if you can ever consciously choose to explore that concept.

 

[FROGO207]

Just simply not profitable to produce ammo here in the USA at this point for some rounds. The cheap imported and even cheaper surplus sees to that at the present time. I invested in die sets for both the 54R and X39. I worked up loads and have bullet molds. Buying US made brass that costs more than loaded foreign ammo that is reloadable is not worth it IMHO. I buy PPU and Wolf Gold ammo and pull the bullet so I can make quality ammo presently. Have several spam cans of Hungarian surplus if I ever feel the need to shoot corrosive again. For that matter there are many "popular obsolete" US made cartridges that are no longer produced in other than limited runs due to sales volume as well. YMMV

 

[TTv2]

You're deliberately skipping the connection between rifles being fired generating ammunition demand. Can you tell us all why you're studiously avoiding that?

I figured the link to critical thinking was a waste, but it's still available for your use if you can ever consciously choose to explore that concept.

Are you trying to tell me that the millions of Mosins in the US aren't being shot? Are you trying to say that even with all the Mosins and that cheap commie ammo that people bought cheap by the thousands wouldn't shoot better in an American made rifle?

This isn't exactly something new, the Mosins and the ammo has been around for decades and the industry, both gun and ammo making sides, have not batted an eye. It's either ignorance or they're working together to keep the status quo in the market.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

I'm saying rational thought process follow that in the US economy the consumption rate of 7.62X54R ammunition is required to deplete stocks of 7.62X54R ammunition available to the US (including imports) to create demand for additional manufacturing to be devoted to manufacture more 7.62X54R ammunition. It's really that simple snd has been that way before you were born and unless that happens to occur before you die will still be true when you die.

I've answered your questions, you owe us all an answer why you choose to ignore thi before asking more questions.

 

[94045]

The question is why produce the 7.62x54R when the .308 Win and .30/06 already have the market sowed up. What does it do better? The 270 Win, .308 Win and .30/06 trio already killed the 7x57, .303 and 8x57 (for the most part) in the USA.

The 7.62x54R is something simply driven by cheap rifles and surplus ammo. Once that dries up it's the Russian 8x57.

 

[Steve S.]

I would say the answer is “a business decision”.

 

[kozak6]

There's a few things.

I suspect that firearm manufacturers are generally leery of calibers that tend to be corrosive. Replacing ruined barrels under warranty is likely to be frequent and expensive, and refusing to or charging much to do so is likely to be expensive in goodwill.

Ammo manufacturers will have to compete with steel case and surplus, which is very difficult when it comes to price.

Politically, foreign produced calibers can be risky. Look what happened with 7N6. How well are 5.45 AR15 uppers/guns selling these days? Relations with Russia continue to be difficult and quite frankly, it's amazing that Russian ammo manufacturers weathered Obama-era sanctions as well as they did.

Commie/Euro calibers can also just be screwy in other ways. 7.62x54r is a rimmed cartridge, which makes feeding tricky, and the bullet itself is .310-.312. 7.62x25 is an incredibly long cartridge and is actually longer than a 10mm. .32 ACP's can have reliability issues due to SAAMI/CIP pressure mismatch, semi-rimmed is an awful place to be, and .380 is much more popular caliber in the American market. 9x18 is actually 9.27 mm.

 

[Dunross]

i also think the 41 Special deserves to have factory made guns and ammunition but what do I know.

Thread drift:

Something like a six round 3"-4" GP100? I'd go for that.

 

[reddog81]

You can get steel cases ammo for around $.35 per round and the cheapest imported brass ammo is about twice that. Any ammo made in the US would probably be $1 per round and it wouldn't be profitable to make. It’s really as simple as that.

Anyone who’s out shooting there Mosin is adequately served with cheap ammo. There’s no sense in buying match grade ammo for it.