Does This Gun Exist?

[Pat Cannon]

@Pat Cannon,
I can't tell from the article, does that device include some method of covering the trigger until its drawn?

No, but with my guns the trigger was well below the waistband so it wasn't going to snag on anything. For safety, the ClipDraw should be on a weapon having either a long stiff DA trigger pull or a manual safety, except for Glocks (and a maybe some others), for which they do sell a plastic piece that wedges behind the trigger, which you simply pop out with your finger as you draw. Personally, I have little confidence that in an emergency I'd always remember to do that.

I carried a full sized 1911 with the ClipDraw a few times, but I felt it was too easy to bump off the thumb safety, and if you can't carry a 1911 cocked & locked then why carry a 1911? My SP101, however, with its "adrenaline-ready"(TM) 15-pound trigger, felt quite safe to me. I was still pretty darn careful with any shirt-tucking or underwear-adjusting while it was in my waistband.

 

[Quiet]

http://www.mouseguns.com/PocketAutoComparison.jpg

Suprised no one has link this yet.

 

[joneb]

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firea...terfire Autoloading&famlst=64&variation=P345®

I have a early 90's Taurus 85 in ss w/a 2" barrel it's a great little gun, I picked up a older like new S&W 36, I took both shooting along with my wife. After shooting both I asked her which one do you like better?... she now has the Taurus
I don't know how the new Taurus revolvers are, but the two I bought in the early 90's have been flawless with thousands of rounds fired, my other Taurus was a 431 .44spl, 2.5" round butt I sold it to a friend :banghead:

 

[cluttonfred]

Getting back to the OP, the question was "is there a 9mm with almost exactly same size and feel in the hand as a Beretta Bobcat .22LR." I think the short answer is no, there isn't.

On the other hand, I would echo the suggestion that a Beretta Tomcat .32ACP is almost exactly the same size and feel and far more effective than a .22LR or .25ACP. Is .32ACP the ideal combat cartridge? No, of course not. But I doubt very much that anyone would volunteer to be shot by one.

FYI, Buds Gun Shop has the Beretta Tomcat .32 ACP with Crimson Trace Laser Grip installed for $439. That should be a very compact and effective little package - that little red dot is both a pyschological deterrent and a very real aid to accurate snap shooting. You should be able to get it without the grip for around $350 I would think.

 

[CajunBass]

You asked about a Taurus 85. I had one with a bobbed hammer and it is a great little gun. Like most snubbies I susppose, it had a pretty snappy recoil, but if you can or at least think you can handle a subcompact 9mm, it won't be a problem. With a couple of speed strips or other speed loaders it's a good choice for most anybody IMHO.

 

[MCgunner]

I had a Beretta tip up .22 that was an unreliable POS. I'll pass on any tip up Beretta style gun regardless of manufacturer, thanks. I don't see them particulary accurate enough for much more than self defense at close range and they're far too unreliable for ME. Only .22 rimfire I'd carry for any serious reason would be a revolver. Rimfire in any gun will dud now and then, nature of the rimfire beast. I don't carry anything smaller than .380 anyway, just sayin'.

I like my Kel Tec P11 a LOT. It's accurate beyond reason for a pocket gun, has been mechanically flawless for a dozen years now, and it is my constant companion. I'm quite practiced with it and trust it with my life. I also have owned a Taurus M85SSUL for the same period and same goes for it. These are my two favorite carries for their weight and compactness combined with accuracy and power and reliability. The 9 is more powerful and carries more rounds more easily concealed so it normally gets the nod. There's a good article on carry, subcompact 9/.380 vs .38 in this month's American Rifleman BTW that I pretty much agree with. Actually, they were comparing a Smith J frame to a Ruger LCP in .380, but I think the littlest 9s are superior protection and almost as easy to pocket as an LCP. If you don't like KT, there is Kahr, Taurus Millennium (bigger gun), Glock G26 (bigger gun), and Rohrbaugh (for the rich and famous).

 

[MCgunner]

BTW, there are more choices if you're willing to drop down to .380 ACP, like NAA Guardian, LCP, Kahr's new .380, P3AT, etc.

 

[sixgunner455]

In small revolvers, I would look at S&W J frames, especially the 642, which I carry all the time, the Ruger SP101, Colt Detective Special, Agent, or Cobra (all only available used), and the small frame Taurus 85 and 605.

Most of those are primarily available in .38 Special or .357 Magnum (which will shoot .38 Specials just fine). But some are also available in smaller calibers, like the .32 Magnum, and .22 LR and .22 Magnum.

The heavier guns will be harder to carry/conceal in a given concealment method, but easier to shoot for a given caliber. I have a Detective Special, which weighs about 25 ounces. It is much more comfortable to shoot than my 642 at 15 ounces. My wife can shoot both, but doesn't like either of them, calling recoil "punishing". When my arthritic wrist is acting up, I don't like the 642 much as a shooter. To me, though, it has few to no peers as a concealment piece.

My wife likes to shoot her Makarov. It is very accurate, reliable, and an easy shooter. To me, it is much easier to shoot than a Keltec 9mm. I had a P11, and while it was reliable and light, it was a gun that demanded regular practice (not that that's a bad thing, usually) to maintain competence in managing the trigger and recoil, to take advantage of the concealment ability of the piece and whatever accuracy it has for you. The Mak is not as demanding, with an easier to manage trigger and less recoil due to being all steel (more weight, though). Makarovs are harder to get hold of for decent prices now, as is the ammo, which was the big draw to them when they were getting imported in barrel loads. The Bersa .380 is a little smaller, and has a good reputation as an easy shooter which is accurate and reliable. But there I go recommending a .380, which isn't one of the calibers you were looking at.

Small autos in .32, I would really look at the Beretta Tomcat since you've basically said you don't like the Keltec P32. I've shot a P32, it was reliable, and had an easier to manage trigger than the P11, but it has really, really rudimentary sights and is just a tiny, thin gun. I am more comfortable with my 642.

 

[3KillerBs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3KillerBs
@Pat Cannon,
I can't tell from the article, does that device include some method of covering the trigger until its drawn?
No, but with my guns the trigger was well below the waistband so it wasn't going to snag on anything. For safety, the ClipDraw should be on a weapon having either a long stiff DA trigger pull or a manual safety, except for Glocks (and a maybe some others), for which they do sell a plastic piece that wedges behind the trigger, which you simply pop out with your finger as you draw. Personally, I have little confidence that in an emergency I'd always remember to do that.

...

As a mother of small children I have little hands hugging, patting, tugging my shirt, etc. all the times so I don't think that would be safe enough for my situation.

 

[revolverman357]

Would you consider the S&W M&P COMPACT 9MM? It is very concealable and everone makes a holster for nowadays, various ways to carry.

 

[3KillerBs]

Would you consider the S&W M&P COMPACT 9MM? It is very concealable and everone makes a holster for nowadays, various ways to carry.

DH has the full-size M&P -- that's the one that brushed my hips with the butt when worn in a horizontal shoulder rig cranked up so high into my armpit that it interfered with my mobility. The compact is only an inch shorter each direction -- not enough difference to make a real difference for me.

I can shoot it just fine with the smallest set of grips on, but its just too long and too tall.

I'm trying to conceal various household objects of various sizes on my body in gun-carrying positions and 4" of height and 5-6" of length seems to be the absolute maximum.

 

[BOOM-BOOM]

3kb with all those kids tugging at you, are you sure you even want to carry a gun?

If you're dead set on carrying one, have you thought of wearing a hat with a .38 derringer clipped in the top...........

 

[3KillerBs]

@BOOM-BOOM,

If DH is out I shouldn't have to rely on the 16yo getting his shotgun out, unlocked, and loaded while I stand empty-handed between the kids and the bad guy. That's not much of a home defense plan.

Besides, sometimes DH and the teens go out together.

Those little hands are my responsibility to take care of.

And I can't just consider the shotgun as the home defense gun because the layout of the house has a door between the kitchen/dining/LR and the back rooms that include the kids bedrooms and the secure storage for the guns -- potentially putting a home invader between me and the kids and between me and the guns.

 

[BOOM-BOOM]

What in the heck does all that stuff have to do with using a derringer?????

And who or what is DH?

 

[Gord]

Have you considered simply placing another firearm strategically around the house, be it long gun or handgun? There's got to be some way of secure storage - unlocked trigger lock with several buttons to press simultaneously to get it off, magazine in a separate (but nearby) location - or even in a mag holder on your person, etc.

It's not gonna be perfect, but it's obvious that you're going to have to compromise somewhere due to budget, proportions, etc. - just figured I'd offer an alternative

 

[sixgunner455]

DH is Dear Husband.

And why on earth anyone would deliberately choose a very difficult to shoot, inaccurate two shot is beyond me.

There are better choices.

 

[Brian Dale]

Have you done much trying-out of revolvers? I must second sixgunner455's small revolver suggestions at Post #58. The thing that strikes me about revolvers is that their shapes are so much different from the shapes of autos that they're entirely different creatures to carry. Whether that's better or worse differs from person to person.

Also, revolver stocks can be tailored to practically anything you want (which is great for control and for recoil-pain reduction). Because the particular details of a revolver's shape - where the corners and edges are - are drastically different than those of autos, the guns lie much differently against my body when they're holstered.

Obviously, all of the revolvers that he's mentioned are available in .38 Special (and most in .357Mag, as well).

As a six-foot-two skinny guy, that's the only wisdom I have to offer:
1) revolver shapes mean that the measurements that constrain the wearer are different, and
2) revolvers can have the stocks swapped out to fit your hands.

They might be better; they might be worse. It's probably worth fiddling with a few more of them to see how they feel.

 

[Gord]

And why on earth anyone would deliberately choose a very difficult to shoot, inaccurate two shot is beyond me.

There are better choices.

Assuming that all other suggestions thus far are out - what else is there?

Two rounds of .38 (and, in a derringer, the low round counts involved with practice may enable her to bump up to something like a .44 Magnum without going over budget - one or two boxes should be sufficient) are better than nothing, and may or may not be better than 9(?) rounds of .22 out of a Taurus which may or may not be able to discharge all nine rounds without a malf.

Again, not saying it's going to be ideal, but sometimes you've got to compromise, perhaps more than you'd like...

 

[hhb]

If you are only going to one one handgun, get one that you can shoot accurately, and let size take a step back. Change the way you carry it. There are lots of purses designed to carry handguns with quick retrieval. Look at law enforcement supply companies. They have a whole line for female officers.

 

[3KillerBs]

What in the heck does all that stuff have to do with using a derringer?????

And who or what is DH?

DH is shorthand for "Dear Husband".

And the only reason I ever mentioned derringers was because someone suggested them as a possible option.

To return the thread to the topic, ...

I got to handle the Taurus pt22. I do not intend to carry one unless I can't find any better option.

The point was that I like the grips. That gun, along with every other Taurus from the PT-92 on down (except for the 1911s -- not even the tiniest of the Kimber 1911s works for me), fits my hand perfectly.

I was hoping that a similar gun was made in 9mm. Apparently, no such gun exists.

I'm now exploring other options -- in 9mm and .38special only -- for guns that measure about 4x6 or less because I can't physically conceal anything larger.

I CANNOT carry off-body because I have small children -- INTELLIGENT small children (read PAX's story about the 2yo on the fridge at www.corneredcat.com if you have never lived with an intelligent small child). :lol:

So the point is that I am trying to find a gun that I can both afford to buy and afford to fire, that I am capable of concealing given the limits I previously explained, and that fits my hand well.

Fortunately, I can at least rack the slide on nearly every gun I've ever handled (though there are some that I can't put the slide lock on without needing a 3rd hand), I can pull pretty much any trigger I can reach, and I don't have a problem with recoil as long as the grip is good.

 

[3KillerBs]

@Brian Dale,
I think I've pretty much narrowed it down that I need to find an opportunity to fire the Kel-Tec 9mm models with the slip-on grips and the LadySmith and/or Taurus 85 revolvers.

And its very faintly possible that a 9mm AMT Back-up may show up in the used gun case at one of the local stores.

 

[Brian Dale]

3KillerBs, that sounds good. Please keep in mind that the "LadySmith" designation has been used for a large number of Smith & Wesson revolver models over the years. It often refers to better fit and finish, sometimes a factory trigger job, nicer stocks (what Smith calls the grips) and other details. I'd like one myself.

I haven't fired the Kel-Tecs yet, or the Taurus 85.

I hope that you'll find the one that's perfect for you. You're certainly taking the approach that's likely to lead to that.

 

[3KillerBs]

@Brian Dale,

I inherited from my father the sort of personality that collects and analyzes a lot of data before making decisions. My stepmother says we miss opportunities that way. We tell her that's true, but we almost never make serious mistakes.

If there were no other factors I'd get one of the Taurus or Beretta PT models (probably the Taurus PT-99 so I could have the adjustable sights and the choice of more attractive finishes and grips). Every time I pick one of those up it sort of sticks to my hand in an "I don't want to put this down" way. :lol: But I have to live in reality so I'm looking for my best compromise.

 

[shooter58]

3killerBs - My wife and I use 3 of the arms you have inquired about on a regular basis. My main carry is the Kel-tec P 11 and I sometimes switch to the Makarov. I love both of them. The wife uses the Taurus mod. 85. She swears by it and absolutely will not consider any other. Having shot it several times, I can vouch that it is accurate, comfortable and reliable. I really believe you would be well served with either of the 3 mentioned firearms.

 

[Markbo]

Have you actually fired a Kel-Tec P-11?