Don't let this happen

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I'm sorry to see this thread turning into more of a bash than a discussion. Let me see if I can bring it back on track a bit.

get_involved:

If I understand correctly you are not opposed to legal immigration, you are only angry about those who come into the country without attempting to immigrate, or get a visa, or a green card, or any other authorization. Correct me if I'm wrong on that otherwise we'll end up on a side track.

Assuming that I am correct, here is my question.

Is it really the "illegal immigration" you are opposed to, or is it more the illegal activities of the "illegal immigrants?" I mean, it is bad to harm somebody whether your are an illegal immigrant or a US citizen.

Same question phrased differently, suppose Anton comes to this country illegally from Mexico and works on a farm 6 months out of the year. He does not harm anyone in any way, does not rob anybody, only takes advantage of the free medical system once when he cuts himself working in the field, works hard and earns a good solid profit for his employer. Are you opposed to this person being in the country?
 
Bruce626,

I am glad you ventured into L&P. We don't bite, honest! ;)

Your arguments seem to be simply baiting the guys. Do you have some opinions of your own?
Well, I thought I had expressed them. But let me answer the rest of your post first, and then I will express them again.
Illegal Aliens should not be here, and if found here should be sent back to where they came from. Any other questions about their existence here don't matter.
Ok, here is an opinion of my own: the second sentence in the quote above is utter nonsense. If we don't know what brought these people here, we will never make them go away. It is that simple.

Ladybug said this more eloquently than I could, a few posts up. She said:
All everyone was trying to say is, the solution is not to build concentration camps for illegal Mexicans... if you don't want them paying less taxes than you, reform the tax code so you don't give all of your money to the government. If you don't want them living off welfare, get rid of welfare. If you don't want them to be "illegal" make them legal.
Good post, Ladybug.

Back to Bruce626:
If the border they keep crossing is porous, it is our duty to protect it against alien invasion.
The Soviets protected their border and drove themselves into bankruptcy. -- Oh, and their border was porous the whole time, too. See what I said to Sonny on that topic.

No matter what we do on our borders -- even if we installed rifle towers every 200 yards and 12-foot double fences with guard dogs between them and electronic sensors and issued orders for the border guards to shoot to kill just like the Soviets did -- even if we did all that, people would still get through if they wanted to badly enough. And we would drive ourselves bankrupt doing it.

Back to, "What's your point???" My point is that there is a reason these people come to America. If we find out what the reason is, we can stop them without those expensive and ugly 12-foot double fences topped in razor wire.

So I want you (and everyone) to think about why they come. What makes a man leave his family and travel 700 miles over dirt roads, risk suffocation in the back of a semi-truck, risk getting arrested by a border patrol agent, risk having all his money stolen by coyotes, and willingly labor long hours in the hot sun? Why does he do it?

My answer is that these people come to America because they want to earn money. We pay them, because we want them here. If we did not want them here, we would not pay them.

It is that simple.

pax

The entire essence of America is the hope to first make money -- then make money with money - then make lots of money with lots of money. -- Paul Erdman
 
I think pax needs to explain her idea on not paying taxes to a conclusion.

Lets all lose the services taxes provide. I think police, fire, jails, prisons, the military, and several other things that I consider "needs" would be at least partially funded through taxes. I wonder if the illegals get any useage from the above?

And my first post mentioned illegals who don't always have car insurance. I think most people would agree that the gas tax does not cover all needed road repair, so now we get illegals who if they don't pay taxes are using something others paid for.

And as far as living in a garage, those are not built to the specs a house uses. Electrical, fire, insulation, and other items are often constructed to lower specifications so you have a greater chance of having a problem with people living there.

The overall solution is a consumption tax, but I don't see that coming anytime soon.

I also think maybe some links from people in the southern areas that have a lot of illegals crossing the border could post some articles that get into all the damage and theft the illegals happen to do.

And getting rid of welfare would be good, but the illegals using it simply add more of a burden to everyone else.

I dislike the majority of taxes that I pay. I figure the country and all needed services could be covered with a 10% tax pretty well once all the excess is lopped off.

Until then, I will pick on illegals or anyone who happens to be getting a freebie while I and others pay for it.

And suggesting I simply stop paying taxes is not the answer.

Either we go back to the wild west that is what many imagine but never really existed, or we as a country deal with the problems together.

Right now, I consider things a tad seperated.
 
Those in favor of foreign labor are corporations who are addicted to cheap labor. They are the ones who are benefiting. But their benefit comes at the American tax payer's expense when you consider that the American tax payer is virtually subsidizing the labor costs of the greedy corporations by supplying the illegal foreign workers and their families with welfare, free education, free medical, WICs, housing assistance, etc. -- something the corporations won't do.

This would be Economic fallacy #1: The primary logic behind most of these programs [which I do not support] is that education, etc., makes for better workers and supports economic productivity.

However, if we take the logic at face value, then the American tax payer is subsidizing himself, as wages – in economic terms – are costs for the corporations, which when they are decreased lower the cost of goods and services purchased by those very same taxpayers.

The fallacy is looking at half of the economic equation and forgetting the other half. Consumers pay workers, ultimately. Increases in wages are merely transfers from one segment of the economy to the other: What one gains, the other loses. We don’t see what people lose in higher prices, and the things they didn’t buy, because we ordinarily don’t pay attention.

But one thing is for sure – when someone tells you that the way to “create prosperity†is to pay people more, regardless of whether they want farm subsidies [higher profits for farmers, losses for consumers,] or union-scale wage schemes [more spending for union-scale workers, less spending for everyone else,] or tariffs [more for the protected, less for everybody else,] or “non-exploitive wages,†one can be sure that they do not have a firm grasp of economics.

Americans won't allow themselves to be exploited like illegals do, but they WILL do the work that illegals do for fair compensation and benefits. If Americans did the work that illegals do at higher pay, would that benefit the consumer? You bet it would in the long run. But many Americans who do not care about America's future are consumers who favor the idea of exploiting illegal workers because it keeps commodity and service prices down in the short term.

The current economic wealth of the country is the current economic wealth of the country. Transferring less of it to a given segment, means that those who get to keep it get to spend it on other things.

"The net cost of immigration is $70 billion a year." - George Borjas, Harvard professor.

Given the cost of American bombs and fighter aircraft, is this supposed to be a large number?

"Immigration costs U.S. born workers $133 billion a year in job losses." - Economics professor George Borjas

You’ll notice that he doesn’t say “economic losses,†because if you can add “X†amount of labor to the pool of American wealth for a smaller amount of money, it benefits all Americans.

The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE $55,200, [Center for Immigration Studies, 2001]. [bold added.]

So, “the average adult Mexican immigrant,†is what – 25-35 years old, maybe? That would be a life expectancy of 65? [random guess.] So, an average of 35 years into $55,200 is $1,577/yr? So we’re paying the average adult Mexican immigrant $4.40 a day to input labor into the economy at “sub-standard wages,†lowering the prices for everyone else????? Oh My GOD!!!

Overall, migrants from around the world send $30 billion to relatives back home. $23 billion last year to Latin America and the Caribbean. $10 billion was sent home to Mexico alone. Filipino workers send $6 billion a year and 10,000 cash transfers are sent to China each month, averaging $2,000 to $3,000 each.

Wealth = total-economic-productivity / money supply. If you take ~70 billion pieces of paper out of the economy, then you cause the rest of the bits of paper in circulation to be worth more.

“But it’s going out of the country!â€

Yup, so what? It is bits of paper. We don’t balance trade by shipping gold reserves any more – haven’t for quite a while. If they want something for their bits of paper, they’ll have to buy something here: That’s where the money is spendable. No, it doesn’t make any difference if the buy from someone, who buys from someone, who buys from someone, who buys from here. It still comes back.

Come’on guys – Adam Smith pointed out most of this stuff in the 1700’s. Can we get over the “high prices beefit the public†idea yet?

Dex
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And my first post mentioned illegals who don't always have car insurance. I think most people would agree that the gas tax does not cover all needed road repair, so now we get illegals who if they don't pay taxes are using something others paid for.

In CA, they usually don’t have a chance to, regardless of whether they want to, because CA changed the law so the only citizens can obtain a driver’s license. Not having a license makes it kind of difficult to obtain insurance as well.

And as far as living in a garage, those are not built to the specs a house uses. Electrical, fire, insulation, and other items are often constructed to lower specifications so you have a greater chance of having a problem with people living there.

While this is in fact true, the garages are often far superior to their previous residences in Mexico. Doesn’t it seem just a bit silly to claim that people cannot improve their condition (and benefit the homeowners as well) because the accommodations are not sufficiently perfect? Is this insistence on perfection not, in fact, the exact reason affordable housing no longer exists in America?

Dex
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As for the illegal Mexican cheap labor -- stop shopping for the cheapest crap you can find at Walmart, and you'll stop supporting the companies that hire the illegal aliens.
Btw, Ladybug, nobody is going to do that because we all want the illegal aliens.

We want cheap, affordable goods and we want inexpensive and plentiful fresh vegetables in the grocery store and we want affordable furniture and we want acres of retail space to shop in and we want our lawns mowed and our children babysat and our Christmas trees pruned to the proper Christmas tree shape...

All we'd have to do to get rid of the aliens is not to want any of that anymore.

But that is not going to happen. The things these people produce are things we want badly enough to buy. They come here because we pay them to come and to provide these things for us. We want what they bring us.

The only thing we don't want from them is their reliance on the welfare system we forged for ourselves and chained ourselves to. But we aren't willing to get rid of that, because we love our chains too much.

No, the aliens aren't the problem. But it is easier to blame them than it is to admit the truth to ourselves.

pax

According to the Tax Foundation, taxes now consume more than 38% of the average family's budget. That is more than is spent on food, clothing, housing, and transportation combined. Compare this to the plight of medieval serfs. They only had to give the lord of the manor one-third of their output -- and they were considered slaves. So what does that make us? – Daniel Mitchell
 
Illegal aliens don't deserve welfare? Let's get rid of welfare.
They don't pay taxes? Let's get rid of taxes.


And so on.

Looked at properly, "illegal" immigrants could be the stimulus to fix so many things that are wrong with our system.


It's a movement:D
 
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Biere,

I asked what portion of what I earn belongs to you. Never mind what you are going to do with it -- what right do you have to take it?

You want me to answer the practical questions you asked about services like roads, hospitals, and infrastructure. I'll answer those after you have answered my question. I asked first, you know.

My question comes first in more than just the chronological sense, too. After all, if you are going to spend money on roads, you must first get that money from somewhere. Are you planning to get it from me? You'll have to explain why I owe it to you.

pax

Politicians can't give us anything without depriving us of something else. Government is not a god. Every dime they spend must first be taken from someone else. – Gary Asmus
 
Just a thought, can someone link me to said article about illegals? Cause you know, without the articles and the FACTS to back it up, sounds like someone's blowing smoke and passing some hate around. Just my humble opinion.

Dan
 
The number of foreign born people in this country is currently about 11 percent.

In 1900 the number of foreign born in America was 15 percent.

The same arguements were used about the Irish, German, Polish, Dannish, Spanish, Belgiums, French, English, et cetera at some point in our past. Now I guess you know how the Creek, Cherokee, Blackhawk, Mohician, Seminole, Apache, Souix, Commanche, Illini, Crow, et cetera felt.
 
Lets all lose the services taxes provide. I think police, fire, jails, prisons, the military, and several other things that I consider "needs" would be at least partially funded through taxes.

Ah, the old "But how can we do XYZ without taxation?"

If you cannot concede that it is immoral to confiscate another's income at the point of a gun, then any discussion on the subject will be fruitless.

If you cannot concede that it is immoral to send men with guns to your neighbor's door to force him under threat of death to cough up money for XYZ, you will not seriously try to find and ethical and moral way to do XYZ.

Yeah, let's lose all the services taxes provide, and let the free market take care of them. If you can't finance a local PD/FD, or a steath bomber for the local militia, by passing the hat around the neighborhood to collect voluntary contributions from the community, then maybe the idea wasn't so hot to begin with.

All the "illegal immigration" arguments are centered on two arguments: that some folks don't want brown/black/yellow/non-Anglo people here, and that other folks don't want illegals to get a "free ride".

The first problem is xenophobia: it's a pervasive mental disease, and its only cure is education.

The second one has an easy fix: eliminate welfare and public assistance for everybody, not just Illegals. Nobody has a right to help themselves to the contents of my wallet and call it "compassion", whether they hail from Burlington or Tijuana.
 
The ultimate solution, make the entire world the United States. that would solve the illegal problem. Working here for wages is fine. Coming here for legislated benefits is unarmed robbery.
 
Coming here for legislated benefits is unarmed robbery.

No sir, it is not unarmed robbery. Rather, it is collusion with the state in its armed robbery of its citizenry. But we've got a voluntary tax system (that's what the IRS calls it), you say? Tell you what, take away the power of the state to steal my money before I receive it and its power to send armed people after me for not paying...see how much volunteering I do.
 
get_involved,

Americans won't allow themselves to be exploited like illegals do, but they WILL do the work that illegals do for fair compensation and benefits.

Do you let the Johnson boy mow your lawn for $10 bucks? Don't you realize that's exploiting him?!? The Smith boy said he'd do it for $25!

Look, if somebody will pluck all the chickens you need plucked for three dollars and fifteen cents an hour, then that's exactly how much chicken-plucking is worth, all the outraged cries of Paddie Buchanan, talk radio listeners, and The Fraternal United Brotherhood Of North American Chicken-Pluckers to the contrary.

If Americans did the work that illegals do at higher pay, would that benefit the consumer?

If we raised the minimum wage to one million dollars an hour, think how much that would benefit the consumer! ;)
 
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"Americans won't allow themselves to exploited, yeah, right."

Take rural eastern central Georgia and rural western South Carolina as two areas to examine. Check out the unemployment rate...it's about ten percent. Go into the sawmills, check out the hispanics...ask them what they're paid...it's above minimum wage and they've got green cards. Go to the office and ask them why'd they hire resident aliens instead of true blue Americans. Answer will be that true blue Americans don't want to work in that hot or cold, wet, dangerous, HARD work sawmill. At harvest time check out the cotton gins. Same story, same answer. There's Americans working there granted. They're the ones sitting in the airconditioned control booths that control the headrigs and edgers.
 
biere,

Lets all lose the services taxes provide. I think police, fire, jails, prisons, the military, and several other things that I consider "needs" would be at least partially funded through taxes. I wonder if the illegals get any useage from the above?

Everybody agrees that FedEx and UPS run better than the post office, private hospitals give better care than public ones, private education is better than the state-funded reeducation centers, and Disney's monorails are cleaner and better-maintained than New York subways, however, mention privatizing courts, police, fire departments or defense and folks say "it'll never work". Why would these things be an exception to what seems to be a universal rule?


"To label something as 'public' is to define it as insufficient, filthy, and dangerous; 'public restroom', for example." -P.J. O'Rourke
 
I ain't bigoted; I hate everybody equally. This country is too danged crowded. My emotional comfort level would be improved if everybody not born here would go back where they came from. I agree that a bunch of really nice folks would have to leave, but the amount of freeboard on this ol' lifeboat is getting way too small.

Being a gentle soul, I don't demand that one's grandparents were born here, to allow continued residency. :D

My own simple-minded solution to immigration is that before somebody comes here, he pays somebody else to leave. I don't care what country somebody comes from; I don't care about color, race, religion, whatever.

For those protesting the illegals, I note that were there no economic incentive for "wetbacks", they wouldn't be here. That's the one area where some sort of "They oughta pass a law!" might be effective. Maybe. Probably politically infeasible.

I agree that some sort of change in welfare laws, such that they become solely of a "safety net" style, might change the job picture at the bottom of the economic pyramid.

:), Art
 
Why would these things be an exception to what seems to be a universal rule? -- Tamara
They wouldn't be, though I'd prefer to start by privatizing the voter registration and election processes first.

The sociofascists in charge of so many states and city-states these days seem almost as enamoured of the phrase 'undocumented voter' as 'undocumented worker'.
 
This is part of the reason why I ignore polls that say that some large percentage of Americans don't want a tax cut.

Hey, 50 percent of Americans pay little to no federal income taxes. They get a largely free ride. The top 10 percent pays about 60-70 percent of taxes.

I'm in that top 10 percent, and trust me, I ain't rich!
 
Wow!...this thread has gotton pretty hot since I left!
Statistics?.........Polls?.......I don't know?.....this whole thread is kind of wacky although I did learn a thing or two.

Faustulus said:
The number of foreign born people in this country is currently about 11 percent.
In 1900 the number of foreign born in America was 15 percent.
Cool fact:)....I wonder what percent in the 1950's?
It made me rethink some stuff and the conclusion I came to was that it was wrong then and it is wrong now... although it is a fact of life,and if left alone.... I'm sure some good would come from it as well as some bad.... my point is good for who? and bad for who?
Many of my friends parents did the jobs that many illegals do when I was a young man, they were hard workers that were not rich but were able to take care of their familys.I suppose nowdays the economy needs the cheap labor but doing it behind closed doors and pretending that it's not happening is not acceptable to me.
I suppose what really gets my goat is the way that govt seems to pretend that they are fighting a war against illegals but we all know thats a crock......It needs to be adressed in an honest and aggresive manor.
Pax you said
My answer is that these people come to America because they want to earn money. We pay them, because we want them here. If we did not want them here, we would not pay them.
I'm not sure you should include me and many others in that statement .....I think it's over simplifying it.
I think Americans would rather pay a little more for the services of other Americans if afforded the option.....How will we know how much more?.....I don't know if we'll ever find out.
I don't think get_involved said anything that was racist unless I missed something and I'm sticking to my guns on this one.
The bottom line for me is that I believe the situation should be adressed more agressively by the "Lawmakers" and whatever laws we decide on as a people we should ENFORCE.
Lets make our bed and sleep in it!.....anyone agree?
 
As for the illegal Mexican cheap labor -- stop shopping for the cheapest crap you can find at Walmart, and you'll stop supporting the companies that hire the illegal aliens.

Or, if I may borrow Ladybug's idea and twist it a bit:

If you think that people who make “low†wages are being exploited, and don’t want them to suffer the economic ravages of capitalism, reform your own behavior and buy the most expensive items that you can for each and every economic choice that you make – you’ll be best off following this simple dictum, right???

Hmmmm. Why not? Is it not in your personal best interest to get just a few expensive things, rather than many more less-expensive things? How can this be? And if it isn’t a good choice for you, why is it supposed to be a good idea if lots and lots of people do the same thing?

Dex
FIREdevil.gif
 
The Libertarians vs. The Conservatives

In case ya'll weren't aware of the teams already ;)

I used to be opposed to illegal immigration, then I got an education on the matter. Conservatives are s'posed to be gung-ho about Capitalism, except when we're subsidizing industries, and Unions. Truth is, both of these idea are bad ones.

Let's take off the kid gloves, and play like politicians in search of a real, feasible, solution.

Increase the amount of Mexican workers who can come to this country legally, and make it easy for them to do so.

Now for the why:

1. Currently we limit the amount of immigrants who can enter this country from any other country to IIRC 100,000 per year per country. Or some other such silly thing. This law, as I recall was passed long, long ago when this country was anti-immigrant for largely racist reasons, none of us here is a racist right?

2. The major country supplying this labor is Mexico, let's not kid ourselves. We get labor from other countries, but Mexico is the lion's share.

3. By making it easy for them to enter legally, if they want to, we reduce incentives for them to try to enter illegally. This also makes it easier for Law Enforcement to focus on those that are causing crime, and makes it more likely that those who are here to work, won't be afraid to turn in the criminals amongst their elements.

4. Such a law would be easy to pass, and would, now that Fox is el Presidente, be workable.

5. We could hammer out what rights they're entitled to, how much, if any taxes they should pay, what services they should receive, etc. This part is open to some debate, but I believe it's the part that Congress could come up with a halfway decent solution to.

6. We could have different rights for those who just wanted work visas and those who wanted to come here to live permanently.

Ideally we'd kill welfare programs all together, and thus, immigrants wouldn't be perceived as a drain (regardless of whether they are or not) and we'd all benefit from the lack of welfare. Additionally, a lot of these immigrants might become more freedom oriented, and less socialist oriented, particularly in CA, since they perceive the Dems as backing them.

-Morgan
 
Caesar1,
Thanks for offering something instead of acting like you knew it all.....you seem to be skilled at solving problems.
My brain hurts know...long day... I may not agree with your plan completely but it does offer a different perspective.
 
Ladybug

Wow, you are really a idiot. I DO have more of a right to be here then a NON-CITIZEN. Especially a illegal one. Why do you think we have immigration laws? And look up the word racist. You don't what it means.

"If you don't want them to be "illegal", make them legal". That is the stupidest statement I have ever heard. LOL! Again do you know why we have immigration laws? Obviously not. It's not just about welfare and taxes, although that's enough a reason to object to illegals. Lack of assimilation, depression of wages for jobs that used to pay good wages, overcrowded schools, etc.

"That fact that you view everyone wanting to come here as a threat shows that". Of course I never said that. Again look up the word racist. Peabrains like you always end up calling somebody a racist when they can't carry on an intelligent conversation.

It seems many of the people who posted on this subject are for open borders and I can guess why. NONE of the arguments against my post made any sense. In fact they were very lame. You are either against illegal immigration or not. Like I said before, half the world would like to live in the U.S. Do you all really think adding about 3 BILLION people to our country is a good idea? The damage from the 10 to 15 million now, is bad enough. And with our population over 280 million, why do we need more people? Not enough traffic jams? Not enough pollution? The LAST thing we need is more people. Especially uneducated and unskilled people.

It's a good thing this board is anonymous Ladybug, because nobody knows who you really are. You make a real FOOL out of yourself.

Don't bother replying, I won't read anymore of your childish posts. I'll stick to boards that have people who are a little more rational.
 
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