Encounter with Arkansas State Police

[SCKimberFan]

To those who would prefer the lecture to the ticket - Speeding is a traffic violation.

And getting a ticket for that (and driving without a license) will make your insurance rates go up for about 3 years. I think a few minutes of him venting would be worth a couple of hundred dollars (or more) in insurance payments.

As I was writing this, I saw aguila's post echoing these same sentiments.

 

[vtoddball]

I'll take an erroneous lecture over spending several hundred extra dollars for insurance for the next three or five years any old time.

You're looking at the situation incorrectly. You are responding as if it has to be one or the other. Just because you would prefer to get slapped as opposed to getting hit with a pipe, doesn't mean you should be happy to get a slap whenever someone feels like giving you one.
When the ATF nazis kick in your door, trash your house and then mumble something about "wrong address" before disappearing into the night without so much as a "sorry", will you happily proclaim, ..."Well, they could have shot us. We got off lucky tonight."

(2) Display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer.

I don't read that as duty to notify. I understand that to mean that if he demands to see your CCL, then you have to present the CCL and identification. If he demands identification, I don't see that statute indicating that you also need to display a CCL.

 

[divemedic]

I don't think that I should feel like a cop deserves any kind of subservience because he didn't write me a ticket.

I got pulled over once for running a stop light. I ran it, I admit it. When the cop had me step out of the car and approached me, I handed over my DL and CCW and told him that I was carrying. He stepped back, put his hand on his gun and said, "If you move, I will kill you where you stand." Like he was in some kind of bad '80s action movie.

In the course of talking to me, he called me stupid, irresponsible, and then proceeded to cuss me out. I didn't get a ticket, but I don't feel like he did me a favor. I still have a poor opinion of Orange County SO, and the incident was 6 years ago.

 

[uneasy_rider]

i don't know about you, but I'll take a lecture over a ticket any day.

I won't whore away my dignity over a few dollars, and over the years, have had tickets issued I am sure simply just because I chose not to turn my ass up to a cop and let him take a poke. It has lightened my wallet a few times, but at least I felt good about myself afterwards. I probably average one ticket every 2 or 3 years because of this, and my insurance rates have never gone up.

I am not going to be friendly to a police officer that pulls me over for a minor traffic violation.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

I don't read that as duty to notify. I understand that to mean that if he demands to see your CCL, then you have to present the CCL and identification. If he demands identification, I don't see that statute indicating that you also need to display a CCL.


thats funny i read the law as saying you need to have a valid id along with your permit whenever you carry. and that could leave ya open to a charge of carrying outside the law if you don't have the id.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

and vis a vis the within 15 seconds crowd, i can run a 100 yards in less than 15 seconds. i always figure vright away meant right away, but ymmv

 

[Tom Krein]

I think you got off really well. Not sure if they changed the rules, but when I took the Arkansas CCH class 4-5 years ago I was told my CCH license was invalid without my drivers license... you may have gotten off REALLY easy!!

You are correct about not having to declare your weapon, but handing your CCH license to him seams like you were letting him know you are a CCH holder and are most likely armed. I believe when the police run AR plates now it comes up if you are a CCH holder...

Seems like I never get a break when I get pulled over I usually get the lecture and a ticket.

Tom

 

[BigBlock]

Speaking only to the OP:

You need to file a complaint with the police department. Email won't cut it. Drive down there or at least call them and file an official complaint on the officer in question.

I really wish people would stop LETTING cops get away with the bull**** they try to pull. I don't care if you are carrying illegal guns in your car, there is never any excuse what so ever for a police officer to have anything less than the most professional attitude. NEVER!

No, don't argue with him in person. Get back at him later in the office, I'm sure his boss won't like that. If the officer gets enough OFFICIAL COMPLAINTS then he loses his job. (happened very recently to a local officer)

 

[razorback2003]

Linked to DL

An Arkansas driver license is linked to an Arkansas concealed handgun license (CHL), not your license plate. Anyone can drive anyone's car, but only you can have your own driver license. My old Arkansas CHL did not have a picture on it, just a blue piece of paper that had to be laminated. I thought it was pretty cheap considering how expensive an Arkansas CHL is on the front end between the fees to the state police and training class cost (mine was 100 bucks). And then after four years you have to requalify on a range. Sad that you spend all that money and Arkansas has roughly twenty places where you can't carry a handgun after getting a license as if you can't be trusted.

States like Alabama and New Hampshire don't make people jump through all those hoops and can carry anywhere, including bars, schools, and churches. Arkansas has a real hang up on that.

 

[razorback2003]

You are also legal carrying a handgun without a CHL when 'on a journey', so many people are not breaking the law when driving a little distance in their cars, especially in rural Arkansas.

 

[everallm]

5-73-315. Possession of license — Identification of licensee.
(a) Any licensee possessing a valid license issued pursuant to this subchapter may carry a concealed handgun.

(b) The licensee shall:

(1) Carry the license, together with valid identification, at any time when the licensee is carrying a concealed handgun; and

(2) Display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer.

This bit confuses me, surely, by it's very nature the CHL licence IS valid identification as it fills all the requirements of "state issued" ID in the same manner as a driving licence.......?

 

[Neo-Luddite]

I guess be glad you're not in ILL. or WIS. and you can have the relative luxury of having such an experience instead of becoming someone's special little buddy for the evening and (possibly but not likely) a felony conviction to follow.

Of course, we don't abide by any such non-sense as 'duty to notify' here--just 'cased and unloaded'----and the definitions of those terms are evolving.

My screed aside, you did right to let the man have his ill-informed moment of holy indignation at the roadside while you were right all along.

 

[ranger335v]

"This is how I interpret his response. He's not sorry that his officer verbally abused me and was wrong about the law. He's sorry that I contacted his office with a complaint."

Would it be helpful if we remember that for years the main duty of the Arkansas State Troopers was to acquire, transport and protect Slick Willie's paramores? They are probably still pretty good at that, so why make an issue of the "side" questions?

 

[sacp81170a]

How was he "waaaay in the wrong"? By forgetting his driver's license? He certainly didn't fail to produce the permit when demanded by the officer.

The guidance that we have from the AG's office is that carrying without both photo ID and your CHL is sufficient cause to have your permit revoked. Is that wrong enough for ya?

This bit confuses me, surely, by it's very nature the CHL licence IS valid identification as it fills all the requirements of "state issued" ID in the same manner as a driving licence.......?

Nope. As stated by razorback2003, the Arkansas CHL has been issued as a cheesy piece of blue paper, almost like a hunting license. The new ones have your photo on them, but I think they won't change the statute until the old ones have all expired. The licensing folks at ASP give us a refresher every year on changes in the statute, and it's always been grounds for revocation to carry without both the permit and a photo ID. I make sure all my students know this, and I'm surprised that lehcpa admitted he was carrying without both. It probably won't get you any criminal charges, but the revocation is bad enough, and it happens as an administrative process, not a judicial proceeding. Basically, you agree to abide by the conditions the state lays out and the state grants you the permit.

I know, it sucks having to have a permit to exercise a fundamental right, especially when open carry isn't legal in Arkansas except when hunting. We're getting an effort off the ground right now to remedy that situation.

Edited to add:

Again, all internet lawyering and puffery aside, if the OP wants to make a huge issue because his pride was hurt, he may be risking more than he cares to. If it comes down to it and he presses the issue, he could very well get his CHL pulled. Take my advice for what it's worth. IANAL, YMMV, and all the usual disclaimers. I'd seriously consider leaving well enough alone.

 

[sacp81170a]

You are also legal carrying a handgun without a CHL when 'on a journey', so many people are not breaking the law when driving a little distance in their cars, especially in rural Arkansas.

True, but that "on a journey" phrase has never really been defined very well. It's ambiguous enough that I'm not really comfortable with it. We need a law like Florida's.

thats funny i read the law as saying you need to have a valid id along with your permit whenever you carry. and that could leave ya open to a charge of carrying outside the law if you don't have the id.

Absolutely correct.

 

[jonmerritt]

What really makes them happy , is when you have a photo copy of the law for that state, and hand it to them. Had to do that for a deputy or two, over a dangerous, unlicensed dog. Dog lost, county attorney chewed there butts out in front of me and the judge.

 

[lehcpa]

Lots of interesting responses here. As to the valid identification being displayed with the license; while I can find no legal definition of proper identification, my new license is issued by the State of Arkansas and it has the same photo that is on my drivers license. Unless I can find something to the contrary, I think that the license itself is a valid form of identification. I also had other forms of photo identification on my person at the time. I am a firefighter and carry department issued photo identification at all times as well as a state issued Emergency Medical Technician license. One person stated that he was suprised that I would admit that I didn't have my drivers license. I take a small amount of offense to that statement. I have no reason to try to mislead anyone here about the incident and what happened. In any event, the officer did not make an issues of this portion of the law which could be a further indication that he does not know the law.

As to those who are obviously concerned about my insurance rates, I took that risk when I ignored the speed that I was traveling at. Don't get me wrong, I am glad that I didn't get a ticket. The fine for traveling 6 miles above the speed limit would not have kept food off of my family's table and I have a clean driving record. However, if he had ticketed me and not given me a lecture, I would not be upset with the officer's actions. I do my best to take responsibility for all of my actions.

 

[sacp81170a]

One person stated that he was suprised that I would admit that I didn't have my drivers license. I take a small amount of offense to that statement.

No offense meant. I didn't mean that I was surprised you would admit it here, I was surprised that you would admit that you were carrying to the trooper unless directly asked. I'm okay with being honest with the trooper, but I'm also OK with not volunteering any more information than is necessary to conduct the business at hand. This is in the context of what I always tell my classes and what I assumed that other instructors did as well. I understand that you probably were caught by surprise. AFAIK, your DL and your military ID are the only ones recognized as being "official", photo or not. This is partly due to the fact that CHL status is linked to your license. He would have known anyway by running you through ACIC by name and DOB. Hopefully the legislature will get their heads out and fix it so the CHL is valid ID by itself. It DOES mean that you've had a background check(you're a known good guy), where the DL does not

The thing that perks my BS detectors(not about your story, but about the trooper's reason given for the stop) up here is the fact that he stopped you for only going 6 mph over the limit. Unless there's something else going on, they typically won't even look at you for going less than 10 over. Maybe he was a little overzealous. At any rate, my advice is friendly and it still stands. I would forget about the incident and move on, but only because you stand to cause yourself more trouble than it's worth. CHL revocation may seem a little drastic, but it can happen.

 

[lehcpa]

Thanks for the clarification. No harm done.

 

[Kim]

CCSNIPER-----can you say what county you were in or give some indication of the place. I want to know if that policeman is anywhere near where I might be.

 

[lloydkristmas]

Just take comfort in the fact that one, you got off without a ticket, and two, that guy is probably one of those cops who got into it for the wrong reasons and is bitter about his job (which he can't even do right, apparently) and is trying to take it out on you. Sounds like that kind of officer who gets mad that "common people" can have guns, and not just cops.

 

[BADUNAME37]

Just like all of us, maybe he was having a bad day.

Like others stated, be glad you didn't get the ticket.

Also, I agree, you handing him your gun license would indicate to me that you are carrying concealed.

Really.

 

[Erik]

I would say that you handled things well up until the point that you misinterpreted the response.

---
" AFAIK, your DL and your military ID are the only ones recognized as being "official", photo or not."

And passports.

 

[vtoddball]

AFAIK, your DL and your military ID are the only ones recognized as being "official", photo or not."

And passports.

(1) Carry the license, together with valid identification, at any time when the licensee is carrying a concealed handgun; and

(2) Display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer.

I find it interesting that in the same sub statute, its referred to once as valid identification and then once as proper identification. It never says "official". Once could argue that as long as it's really your identification, it's valid. Perhaps it's defined elsewhere in the code.

Sounds to me like it was left vague for a reason. An unfriendly officer and/or prosecutor can interpret it in all kinds of ways that aren't conducive to a free society.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

"Once could argue that as long as it's really your identification, it's valid. "

lets us know how it works out, if it gets past the speculative stage