Encounter with LEO's while carrying concealed part 2

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OK, I was visiting the city of Orange and the local cops are stopping everyone at this certain street called Tustin blvd. checking for drivers licenses. When my turn came, I handed my drivers license and pistol permit to the 3rd cop on the line in the checkpoint.

Me: Good day officer, here's a copy of my drivers license and CCW.

Officer: Looks at the permit and hands it back over to me, saying, "we are not checking car registrations".

Me: Are you sure you looked at the permit? I'm not required to show it to you but it was suggested..

Officer: Looks at the permit again and says, we are not checking any vehicle registrations.

Me: Ok, thanks.

Officer: proceeds to look at the DL and handed it back.

I swear to God, I could have handed him a school ID and he wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

And while in the city of Orange, I visited the Army Navy gun store and noticed everyone at the store are upset over something, I asked what the deal was and the girl working in the counter informs me that someone stole a Sig Pro like 2 minutes ago.

The guy literally walks out with the pistol in hand. Cops shows up and took a report and the employees at the store went out back to "chase" the guy.

My question is, If I would have been in there while the robbery took place and confronted the guy who stole the gun and my life was threatened and it ends in a shoot out, do you think I'm justified in shooting him for stealing a gun?

Note: This is probably one of the few gun shops where employees are not allowed to carry a gun.

The little incident would have a different outcome if not for the traffic stop, who knows I could have shot the bad guy in self defence or worse he could have fatally shot me.
 
Extra-weird. I never heard of a gun shop where the counter workers were not armed.

On your permit, they are rare as hens teeth in Orange. Maybe officer Friendly never saw one before?
 
My question is, If I would have been in there while the robbery took place and confronted the guy who stole the gun and my life was threatened and it ends in a shoot out, do you think I'm justified in shooting him for stealing a gun?
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If the guy snatches the pistol and runs, then deadly force is not justified. The Police can't even shoot him unless he pointed the gun at them (and they had reason to believe it was loaded.) Now if he loads it and threatens somebody's life with it, then self defense is authorized.

Remember, a CCW is for self defense only!
 
dude, if you're not required to declare your CCW, why do you do it? what are you trying to accomplish? there is no reason whatsoever to reveal you are carrying unless you are required to by law or the cop specifically asks. you're not making the cops' job any easier. some say, its a courtesy. what the heck is so courteous about it? why does he even need to know if you intend him no harm? all you're doing is asking for delays, and putting a cop on high alert for no reason. just keep it in your pants and be on your merry way.

on the other issue, it wasn't your gun, and your life wasn't endangered, so you'd likely be sent up the river if you had to shoot the guy. no need to put yourself in harms way intentionally and escelate a situation unnecessarily. are you really willing to risk your life for someone else's stolen property?

Bobby
 
Penforhire, I believe the managers carry cordless phones only. The other employees are unarmed.

True, CCW is for self defense only, I should have rephrased my question but Edward429451 and DMK cleared it up, thanks.

Bobarino, It was suggested as a courtesy to inform them about it, instead of telling them that I carry, I show the permit instead. If you took the time to read what I said,

Here is what I said, "If I would have been in there while the robbery took place and confronted the guy who stole the gun and my life was threatened...."

Thanks.
 
not all suggestions are advisable. for a while it was 'suggested' that a CCW permit holder tell a LEO "i've got a gun!" in those exact words.

in the particular situation you spoke of, the police were simply checking papers, oops i mean licenses. they musta been really bored? anyways, if you are pulled over the LEO will likely know you are a permit holder after running your plates (provided the car is registered in your name).
 
I'm more astonished at the Orange PD doing a "DL check" roadblock than the individual cop's not recognizing a Kali CCW permit - the permits are quite rare (maybe 1000 in Orange County, though more are issued every month) and a lot of Kali LEOs have never seen one.

I know DUI checkpoints have been ruled Constitutional, but there is no right for the police to demand ID, which is what a DL is, without probable cause.

Just checked the OC Register web site, nothing about a DUI or other check point; could you give me a date and time?

As to whether you should/could take on a thief: I'll ditto what others have said (and your CCW class should have made clear :cool: :D ) - you can ONLY use deadly force in defense against IMMEDIATE THREAT OF DEATH OR GREAT BODILY HARM. If you saw the gun thief loading the pistol and pointing it at you, sure, but since you KNOW it was unloaded, unless he threw it at you, it's NOT a deadly weapon at a distance.
 
I was pulled over yesterday in a traffic stop.

My state is don't ask, don't tell...

I smiled, took my ticket and was on my way. :)

Pleasant young female officer.
 
In class we were taught to only pull the gun in a life threating situation, ONLY then. Or you get gun rights taken and or jail time. Gun store, let them worry about their guns. In my town, some bozo walks into a small hardware store that sells guns, pulled a hammer, broke the display case, grabbed 3 guns and ran. Nut case, the store personell know him when they see him.
 
tcdrennen, it was a couple months ago. I never did took the time to post it here because I wasn't sure if it was okay.

The traffic stop was on Tustin blvd near the intersection close to the 55 freeway, they had a roadblock with a driver license check sign on the right and 3 cops on the left while another one holding a long gun to the right side of the stop.

The guy who stole the gun was in his mid to late 20's-30's, well dressed, clean cut and in their own words, "he couldn't hurt a fly", family man type.
 
8,

i read your post word for word. i understand it was suggested to you. by whom? i'm not trying to be insulting, i just don't understand why people feel its courteous to let a LEO know they are packing when its not required, suggest or not. some suggestions are best left with the suggestor. like this one; i suggest you carefully pack up all your firearms and send them to me overnight, free of charge. i further suggest you send at least 1000 rouds of ammo for each gun, also overnight, free of charge.

see? some suggestions are best ignored.

Bobby
 
I know DUI checkpoints have been ruled Constitutional, but there is no right for the police to demand ID, which is what a DL is, without probable cause.
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I don't know about OC, but I pass through a DL checkpoint at least once a month here in SB. I don't mind them too much because I always see them towing a few cars, and the fewer unlicenensed drivers on the road the better. I know that they are run by the DUI task force, so they probably skirt the constitutional issues by making it technically a DUI checkpoint.
 
I know DUI checkpoints have been ruled Constitutional, but there is no right for the police to demand ID, which is what a DL is, without probable cause.
Click to expand...

I've been through exactly 2 DUI checkpoints in my life. One in DC, the other in western PA. Both times, they asked for my DL.
 
Note: This is probably one of the few gun shops where employees are not allowed to carry a gun.
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There's NO WAY I would put myself in jeopardy to save the store's property when they've already decided to disarm their own employees. I would absolutely NOT confront the bad guy. I'd get involved only if it was unavoidable, and then ONLY if the thief did something to pose a real and immediate threat to life.
 
Note: This is probably one of the few gun shops where employees are not allowed to carry a gun.
Click to expand...

I used to work at a gunshop in Kali where we couldn't have guns, alot of stores don't that I knew of. Course I carried a good folder and a loaded 1911 clip in my pocket (we had rentals and alot of them where 1911s) but I'd be damned if I was gonna pull either of them on someone who walked out with a gun, doupt I would have even if I was allowed to carry. No point in risking my life for the owners property.

Don't take it I am a chicken, I was a Marine security gaurd and have drawn on a few people and ran into a few hairy situations, but that was my job then. My job at the shop was to sell guns and watch the range for safety problems.
 
Regarding a traffic stop, here's a situation that could have been very embarrassing: It was the end of a looong day and I was tired. I was pulled over for speeding. Earlier, I had put my CCW in the glove box. If the officer had asked for registration or insurance, I would have opened the box, of course. And the officer would have seen the revo in easy reach. Fortunately, this didn't happen. The only thing I can think of to have done would have been to snatch my hand back as if burned, and wait for the officer's reaction--and hope he would accept my apology for probably scaring him out of about ten years.:uhoh:
 
Shep854:

That could very well get you shot. I'm serious, police do NOT take someone opening a glove box and a gun pops out very well. Hopefully it would only be an experienced officer that would just draw on you and make your life miserable for a while. I keep my gun in a separate place from my lic & reg when it's not on me, because I almost did the same thing once.
 
Magnum88C: Yeah, I was thinking along those lines afterward. Hopefully, my demeanor and body language (passive and cooperative) would help the officer realize I meant no harm. But the hassle would be very UN-pleasant, and could result in losing my permit.
 
Quote
"Bobarino
there is no reason whatsoever to reveal you are carrying unless you are required to by law or the cop specifically asks. you're not making the cops' job any easier. some say, its a courtesy. what the heck is so courteous about it? why does he even need to know if you intend him no harm? all you're doing is asking for delays, and putting a cop on high alert for no reason. just keep it in your pants and be on your merry way."
_______________________________________________________

In Texas we must show LEO our carry license as soon as possible.

Why do you think this puts the "cop on high alert" or makes his job harder?

The opposite is true. You are identifying yourself as one of the good guys. This helps put him at ease.

I've been stopped about a dozen times since I got my CHL, mostly for speeding.
Most of the time there is a noticeable change in the officer's attitude when you identify yourself. He knows you aren't any problem to him.

I did not receive a single ticket and several of these stops, I learned later were known speed traps.

And as an ex LEO I can tell you I would certainly want to know if the person I stopped had a CHL.
If for no other reason maybe I could give a fellow "gun nut" a break. :D
 
M2,

i understand where you're coming from. like i said, if its required, by all means inform the officer. however, in the case cited, *8* said that permits are as rare as hens teeth. obviously not Texas. that means cops are not used to seeing permits, nor legally armed individuals. in this case, the cops was either a) not wanting to make a big deal out of it and called it a "registration" with a wink and smile, or b) truly is ignorant of CCW. but *8* pushed the permit even after the cop was disinterested. to me its like saying, "looks sir, i have a gun". and he says a),"thats nice, good day." or b)"huh? never heard of that before, good day." and *8* says, " but LOOK! i have a gun!." and again the cops says a)"thats nice, good day." or b)"huh? never heard of that before, good day."

in my opinion, if its not required, there is nothing to gain from declaring you are armed to an officer. concealed means concealed. even from LEO's. you may be one of the officers that gives a break to the "good guys", (which i also don't agree with by the way, that tells me you discriminate against unarmed people.) but there are many out there that don't. some will freak out about it. we've seen several posts on these boards before about just that. i'm simply not willing to risk a big hassle from an ignorant cop. therefor, i stand by my assesment that if its not required, and you're not asked, and its not going to become a factor, such as the gun in the glove box with the registration, don't tell. you're only asking for more hassles from an overzealous, undereducated LEO. again, just an opinion.

Bobby
 
My question is, If I would have been in there while the robbery took place and confronted the guy who stole the gun and my life was threatened and it ends in a shoot out, do you think I'm justified in shooting him for stealing a gun?
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No. You aren't "involved" in the theft and isn't a life and death situation.
 
Hmm, the local cops run a DL & registration tag stop about every other month in Whittier (LA county). They don't ask for registration. Seems reasonable to me. You're saying it is not legal?
 
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