Explain the Scout rifle to me

[seeker_two]

IMHO, a Scout rife is best-defined as "a jack-of-all-trades (rifle)...but a master of none..." A Scout can be pressed to do a lot of things (HD, hunting, combat, etc.), but it falls short in each category when compared to a more-specialized rifle.

I've always wanted to ask Col. Cooper his feelings about using the 7.62x54R as a Scout-Rifle cartridge & the Mosin-Nagant action for a Scout. Based on his reasons for choosing the .308 (powerful cartridge still in military service), its also a good fit. And, in many places in this world, you can find the Russian round easier than the NATO round.

I look at the Scout Rifle concept the same way I look at the .223 cartridge. It can be pressed into service for many jobs (from plinking to combat to big-game hunting), but it's not always the BEST choice when compared to more-specialized cartridges in each category.

And, Vern, for someone who doesn't understand the Scout concept, you seem to own three rifles that fit the concept perfectly...

 

[dfaugh]

Well, i think I'm gonna try to make one that fits the definition, at least mostly...

I have a VZ-24 with a good action and rifling that I got really cheap (the stock is firewood, and the muzzle is very worn.) Gonna re-chamber it in 8mm-06 or 8mm-06 AI (mostly to clean up the throat)...Found a decent stock on eBay...Gotta red dot scope, that I tried on my shotgun and didn't like, but might work well when moved out farther... Will shorten, recrown and port the barrel.

Basically, experiments in gunsmithing 101. We'll see it I like the result. I'll only have a couple hundred dollars in it, so no great loss if it doesn't work well.

 

[355sigfan]

I don't see any use at all for the Cooper Scout rifle concept. He insists on a Bolt action hence the forward mounted scope so you can use stripper clips. I do like the idea of a 308 semi auto with a low powered conventionally mounted variable scope such as the S&B 1-4 power short dot. Now this type of rifle kicks butt.
Pat

 

[Vern Humphrey]

And why does the bolt make you break the weld? Because your face is too close to cycle it without moving out of the way. And why is your face that close? Because you have such limited eye relief. Maybe there's a way to mount it so you don't have to move out of the way of the bolt, but it's not a method I've seen employed.

Take a look at soldiers practicing rapid fire with the '03 Springfield. Where is the scope on that rifle?

People who break spot weld do so because of bolt manipulation, not because of the scope. A properly-fitted stock is the answer.

 

[akodo]

I think part of the scout rifle concept is it's size and weight limits. Lots of people like to go ubertactical, and with the scout rifle, you have got to make tough decisions about how much crap you can stick on it. Lots of small additions, including a few extra inches on teh barrel, don't seem like much for weight or avoiding snags, but carry a gun in the field 16 hours a day, those extra inches and ounces really add up.

Part of the scout rifle concept is to be good, if not great, in a lot of important catagories.

Iron sights are fast, as in a marlin guid gun. The long eye relief scope system is also fast. The idea is you keep both eyes open, look straight at your target, and lift the gun, and the crosshairs move onto the target, no need to stop, look at the scope, and reaquire the target. At 1X it is a lot like aimpoint reddot type sites. Probably not QUITE as fast as either iron or red dot, but nearly so, and much faster than a traditionally mounted scope, plus with both eyes open you are much more perepherally aware.

Now, you need to make a long distance shot. You kick out the bipod and crank that little scope as high as it will go, which may be only 4X or 6X. Sure a standard deer rifle in 30-06, with a bipod and 3-9x will probably be more accurate, and a tweaked out 24 inch heavy barrel 300 win mag with a uberscope on it is even moreso, but both of these guns give up a lot of the fast handling that the scout rifle maintains.


On a scale of 1-10

Scout Rifle

Light for easy carry.................................7
Compact for easy carry............................8
Quick followup shots................................8
Simple and reliable...................................9
Allows perephery awareness......................8
Powerful ammunition................................8
Readily available ammunition.....................10
Long range capable.................................7
Fast close target aquasition......................8

Marlin Guide Gun

Light for easy carry.................................8
Compact for easy carry............................8
Quick followup shots................................8
Simple and reliable...................................7
Allows perephery awareness......................8
Powerful ammunition................................10
Readily available ammunition.......................3
Long range capable.................................2
Fast close target aquasition......................9

You have almost no true long range accuracy, and there sure is a lot less 444, 45-70, or 450 floating around than 308, hence it is not a scout rifle

CZ 527 in 7.62x39 with irons

Light for easy carry.................................9
Compact for easy carry............................9
Quick followup shots................................8
Simple and reliable...................................8
Allows perephery awareness......................8
Powerful ammunition................................2
Readily available ammunition.....................4-8
Long range capable.................................3
Fast close target aquasition......................8

Ammo*
You are giving up powerful rounds and long range capablity and really focusing on a light and handy rifle, hence not a scout rifle


Model 70 winchester variable scope backup sites in 30-06

Light for easy carry.................................5
Compact for easy carry............................5
Quick followup shots................................8
Simple and reliable...................................9
Allows perephery awareness......................5
Powerful ammunition................................8
Readily available ammunition.....................10
Long range capable.................................9
Fast close target aquasition......................5

Here to increase the long range capability a bit, you go from good to exellent in ease of carry, perephery awarness, and fast close targets to just average. All this to make long range shots a little better. Hence, it is no longer a scout rifle.


Ammo*

Ammo is cheap and plentiful on the internet, but not stocked in all mom and pop shops, or if they do just a few boxes. Take a SHTF scenario, with you having an 8 hour head start. You go to the closest gunstore and buy all the X ammo they have. You'd walk out with a lot more boxes if X is 308, 30-06, 270 than if X was 7.62x39, 8mm mauser, 7.62x54R, 303, 25-06, 284, 7mm weatherby

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Vern, you sure are just kicking at the hornets nest calling this topic up. Next thing you know people will be insulting Cooper, and saying he is really not a colonel!

When it gets downright nasty, they may say he's really not God.

 

[roscoe]

See? There you go again.

 

[waterhouse]

I've shot 30-30 lever guns with conventional scopes set on low power (3x) side by side with lever actions with forward mounted LER optics (a 2x pistol scope). The targets were honey dew (sp?) melons placed at a about 100 yards and about 15 yards apart.

I found it to be much faster to walk down the line of melons with the forward mounted LER scope.

So for me, a scout scope is much faster for target acquisition, and I tend to shoot very well with them offhand. If you try it and find the opposite, then obviously a forward mounted scope is not for you. The forward mounted optics are just one aspect of the Scout rifle, but they do serve their purpose well.

I've got enough rifles to cover all my needs, so to me a rifle that can do many things adequately is not as good as several tools that each have a specific task. However, if I had to make do with just one rifle I would consider buying a Browning BLR in .308 and having a smith set up a forward mount for a LER scope.