Face to Face
- Thread starter ms6852
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shootistpd27
Member
Im sure its different depending on state law, but in Mississippi, as long as there is nothing that causes you to believe that the buyer is a convicted felon, mentally incompetent, or addicted to alcohol or drugs, you can sell without a bit of paperwork.
ChefKristian
Member
I have bought and sold several guns FTF. My criteria is that they must have a Texas ID or DL (state law) and I ask if they are legally allowed to purchase. Sometimes I am asked or sometimes I ask for a signed bill of sale. It is all up to you though.
Fumbler
Member
Make sure you find out what the law requires in TX.
In NC long guns don't need any paperwork. Handguns require the buyer to give the seller a pistol buying permit, private sales or through a dealer. NC also allows concealed handgun permits to take the place of a pistol buying permit, but does not specify whether or not you need a copy of it.
My personal criteria...I do what the law tells me I need to do. I take a pistol buying permit if I sell a handgun. If they have a concealed handgun permit and I know them then I don't ask for a copy. If i don't know them and I ask for a copy of the concealed handgun permit.
And the biggest thing...if i don't know the person then I bring an armed buddy. You never know what kind of crazy people might try and "buy" a gun from you with no intentions on paying you.
In NC long guns don't need any paperwork. Handguns require the buyer to give the seller a pistol buying permit, private sales or through a dealer. NC also allows concealed handgun permits to take the place of a pistol buying permit, but does not specify whether or not you need a copy of it.
My personal criteria...I do what the law tells me I need to do. I take a pistol buying permit if I sell a handgun. If they have a concealed handgun permit and I know them then I don't ask for a copy. If i don't know them and I ask for a copy of the concealed handgun permit.
And the biggest thing...if i don't know the person then I bring an armed buddy. You never know what kind of crazy people might try and "buy" a gun from you with no intentions on paying you.
NavyLCDR
member
My personal feelings, as both a buyer and a seller FTF is that I will prove to you that I am a same state resident as you by SHOWING my driver's license or military ID + orders to you. I will tell you I am not prohibited from purchasing a firearm. I will sign a receipt for your money or for your gun and that receipt may certainly have my address and phone number printed on it - that info is in the phone book anyway.
You will not get, nor will I require, to see a copy of a carry permit. A carry permit is a tax paid to a state for the privilege to conceal a handgun. I don't expect it to be used in a private transaction nor for any purpose other than concealing a handgun, because I won't support the state infringing upon persons' rights to possess firearms any more than is necessary by law in order to exercise that right.
You won't get, nor will I require, a copy of my driver's license, military ID card, DL number or Social Security number. We are just private citizens. I likely don't know you from Adam and you don't know me. That's just foolish to give information like that to a stranger.
In Texas, no paperwork is required at all. A signed receipt (bill of sale), just like for any major item being sold, is a good idea, in my personal opinion. Both parties are free to walk away from the deal at any time up to the point of after the exchange of money/firearm if they don't like what they see/hear.
You will not get, nor will I require, to see a copy of a carry permit. A carry permit is a tax paid to a state for the privilege to conceal a handgun. I don't expect it to be used in a private transaction nor for any purpose other than concealing a handgun, because I won't support the state infringing upon persons' rights to possess firearms any more than is necessary by law in order to exercise that right.
You won't get, nor will I require, a copy of my driver's license, military ID card, DL number or Social Security number. We are just private citizens. I likely don't know you from Adam and you don't know me. That's just foolish to give information like that to a stranger.
In Texas, no paperwork is required at all. A signed receipt (bill of sale), just like for any major item being sold, is a good idea, in my personal opinion. Both parties are free to walk away from the deal at any time up to the point of after the exchange of money/firearm if they don't like what they see/hear.
[1] If your state allows private, face-to-face sales, which I believe Texas does, under federal law that would be permissible only if you are both residents of the same state. Any transfer to a resident of another state must, under federal law, go through an FFL. In the case of a handgun, it must be an FFL in the transferee's state of residence. In the case of a long gun, it may be any FFL as long as: (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's state of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of both the transferee's state of residence and the state in which the transfer takes place. (Some FFLs will not, for business reasons, transfer a long gun to a resident of another state.)
[2] If your state allows private, face-to-face sales, you can have liability only if you knew, or had reason to know, that the transferee was a prohibited person or there was some reason why the transfer would be improper. Of course, this is a rather vague standard.
[3] Some sellers, to better protect themselves, like to get identification from the buyer and may even ask to see a local concealed weapons permit. That gives the seller reason to believe that the transferee is a resident of the state and is not a prohibited person. Some buyers will balk and want to preserve their privacy.
[4] Some sellers will want to fully document any transaction in writing including the time, date, place, transferees name, address and ID. There is the chance that a gun you sell may subsequently be used in a crime. It can often be traced back to you, even in the absence of registration. In such a case, you would find it helpful to have documentation showing that you sold the gun. (And if you're buying, it might help to have documentation of your purchase, if the gun had previously been reported stolen.) Some buyers (or sellers) balk at leaving a paper trail.
[5] It's up to you to decide on what terms you will sell (or buy) a gun. Documenting the deal could be a deal breaker for some folks. Not documenting the deal could be a deal breaker for others. You need to decide how you want to handle it and what risks you're willing, or unwilling, to take.
[6] You can always insist on going through an FFL, but that would add cost and might kill a potential deal.
[2] If your state allows private, face-to-face sales, you can have liability only if you knew, or had reason to know, that the transferee was a prohibited person or there was some reason why the transfer would be improper. Of course, this is a rather vague standard.
[3] Some sellers, to better protect themselves, like to get identification from the buyer and may even ask to see a local concealed weapons permit. That gives the seller reason to believe that the transferee is a resident of the state and is not a prohibited person. Some buyers will balk and want to preserve their privacy.
[4] Some sellers will want to fully document any transaction in writing including the time, date, place, transferees name, address and ID. There is the chance that a gun you sell may subsequently be used in a crime. It can often be traced back to you, even in the absence of registration. In such a case, you would find it helpful to have documentation showing that you sold the gun. (And if you're buying, it might help to have documentation of your purchase, if the gun had previously been reported stolen.) Some buyers (or sellers) balk at leaving a paper trail.
[5] It's up to you to decide on what terms you will sell (or buy) a gun. Documenting the deal could be a deal breaker for some folks. Not documenting the deal could be a deal breaker for others. You need to decide how you want to handle it and what risks you're willing, or unwilling, to take.
[6] You can always insist on going through an FFL, but that would add cost and might kill a potential deal.
NavyLCDR
member
I would buy a gun from a private party through an FFL - but the transfer cost would be completely at the seller's expense. I would not pay the FFL (as a buyer) for the transfer or sales tax and I would only pay for the gun what I thought the gun was worth, not for sales tax or FFL transfer. (Yes, I know there should not be sales tax on the deal, but some FFL's have been known to collect it.)
oneounceload
member
Then the seller adds those into the price......6 of 1 half dozen of the other
Shadow 7D
Member
What fiddletown said, I have encounter people who refuse to do a FFL transfer, they say they are a way for the government to register all the guns, But like a few have mentioned, if it smell fishy, I'm more than welcome to walk on a deal.
I have used my C&R to good effect, as a number of people have said that they feel more comfortable selling to a FFL, they probably didn't understand all the intricacies of it, (and they were C&R arms anyways)
I have friends who refuse to sell to anybody except military, police, or CCW holders (guess FFL would be on their list too)
I have used my C&R to good effect, as a number of people have said that they feel more comfortable selling to a FFL, they probably didn't understand all the intricacies of it, (and they were C&R arms anyways)
I have friends who refuse to sell to anybody except military, police, or CCW holders (guess FFL would be on their list too)
Texas face-to-face (FTF) sales...
Again, in the numerous FTF transactions that I have been involved in here, I have been extremely careful to follow the law, to the letter.
Every single time I've sold a firearm FTF, I made very sure to not know that the buyer was prohibited from owning the weapon.
Every single time I've purchased FTF, I've been certain to not have the seller know that I am prohibited.
This has worked well each and every time.
I guess that is why it's the law.
p
Again, in the numerous FTF transactions that I have been involved in here, I have been extremely careful to follow the law, to the letter.
Every single time I've sold a firearm FTF, I made very sure to not know that the buyer was prohibited from owning the weapon.
Every single time I've purchased FTF, I've been certain to not have the seller know that I am prohibited.
This has worked well each and every time.
I guess that is why it's the law.
p
+1 This.
oneounceload
member
Wasn't that long ago, folks like me used to sell guns FTF at garage sales - cash for guns, no big deal.............AH, the good old days.................
Shadow 7D
Member
Well it depends, if you are a C&R (and yes I have encountered this) you are legally required to record where you acquired the firearm.
I also record the Drivers License, for two reason, on a back check, ATF is off my back quicker, a simple call in gets vitals and address, if it's changed, and if it's bogus, they have a starting point to investigate. When I see pics, fingerprints and DNA, guess I'll be paranoid. I would also do a CCW, actually would prefer it, that way I KNOW they can legally posses a firearm without asking.
BTW, they still do, at least locally, talked to a friend who bought a papoose for $100 Saturday, said he just couldn't pass it up.
I also record the Drivers License, for two reason, on a back check, ATF is off my back quicker, a simple call in gets vitals and address, if it's changed, and if it's bogus, they have a starting point to investigate. When I see pics, fingerprints and DNA, guess I'll be paranoid. I would also do a CCW, actually would prefer it, that way I KNOW they can legally posses a firearm without asking.
BTW, they still do, at least locally, talked to a friend who bought a papoose for $100 Saturday, said he just couldn't pass it up.
CapnMac
Member
My preference is to not do this in an impromptu way.
I like having the time to make a receipt up (have a blank one in the word processor) that gives the name and contact info (address and phone #) of the one party to the other party. Then a full description of the arm, maker, name/designation, and s/n with the date.
I also include the sale price in the form of "$nnn and such other consideration".
I like having the time to make a receipt up (have a blank one in the word processor) that gives the name and contact info (address and phone #) of the one party to the other party. Then a full description of the arm, maker, name/designation, and s/n with the date.
I also include the sale price in the form of "$nnn and such other consideration".
As a seller, I prefer FFL only deals, with the buyer paying the transfer fee. There are a lot of people out there that can act "normal" but who have negligent intentions and who are forbidden to purchase a firearm. The state is putting the burden of you being a mind reader to decide if Joe Blow is a good ole' honest citizen who can legally possess and purchase a firearm. I wouldn't trust half of the nimrod gunowners around where i live to "intelligently" decide whether Joe Blow buyer is a good ole' honest citizen who is not forbidden to purchase/possess a firearm. In addition, it's easy to get fraudalent driver's drivers licences in some states.
oneounceload
member
All of these responses, versus what I said USED to be, seem to show how we have given up more of our freedoms. It would seem that most here are too young to remember sales of guns from the back of magazines that were delivered to your home, or taking your .22 to school because you were hunting rabbits or squirrels before and after, or leaving your rifle ion the rack in the back of the window of your pickup................too bad................
galilgunner
Member
Or leaving it in the back window of your pickup in the school parking lot while in class. Yes indeed sadly times have changed.
jumpstart
Member
No paperwork. I'm not the BATF, nor do I want to cultivate the notion that gun transactions need paperwork. That's an invasion of privacy. In Colorado, just ask "are you legal"? Of course don't sell to sketchy people. I don't buy from people who ask for paperwork. Just sayin.
All of these responses, versus what I said USED to be, seem to show how we have given up more of our freedoms
I would not say we have given up more of our freedoms....it's more so of today's populace not having the same morals and stand up character like they did in the good ole days. I think it's naive for people to think they can still live in "Leave It To Beaver" world and do the same things now as they did back then (e.g. leaving your rifle in the gunrack of your truck as you go to school).
I would not say we have given up more of our freedoms....it's more so of today's populace not having the same morals and stand up character like they did in the good ole days. I think it's naive for people to think they can still live in "Leave It To Beaver" world and do the same things now as they did back then (e.g. leaving your rifle in the gunrack of your truck as you go to school).
rbernie
Contributing Member
NavyLT's post #8 nailed it. Folk can do bills-of-sales or receipts or copies of DLs or CHL cards or whatever, but that's not required by law and frankly I fail to see how such things will afford anyone any additional legal protection or make our world a better place. Federal and TX state laws only require that you have no reason to believe that the buyer is prohibited.
So ask.
Gauge the answer, and how its answered. Use your spidey sense to figure out if you want to do the deal or not.
It's really not hard.
Now, the preamble to the sale is probably the most important bit to all of this. Your online and telephone interactions with the prospective buyer will tell you an awful lot about who they are and how reliable their statements are. Prior to a meet, I will usually ask if the buyer has a Texas CHL and ask if they are a state resident. If the answers are in the affirmative and everything else lines up, then we meet (usually in a gun shop or sporting good store parking lot). If the face-to-face greeting passes the smell test, then we exchange goods. As a rule, I never ask for a receipt and I have never been asked to sign one.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't ask for paperwork just because its a gun. I require a sales receipt for anything of significant value. Whether I'm selling a $200 gun, or a $200 computer, or a $20,000 car. I'm only comfortable if I have a personal record of the transaction.
I will admit that requiring a DL number might be overkill. Never ran into a problem with it, but I can see a point in someone only giving a name and a signature, and that seems reasonable.
I will admit that requiring a DL number might be overkill. Never ran into a problem with it, but I can see a point in someone only giving a name and a signature, and that seems reasonable.
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