Fatal Chicago Beating - What could a bystander have done?

[KBintheSLC]

I have decided that I am not responsible for the safety of anyone besides myself and my family. Therefore, unless I am witnessing a rape or an assault of some elderly person or a child, in which the problem is obvious, I will not intervene. There are too many unknowns to go and get yourself and your gun involved in a fight between individuals on the street. How are you supposed to know that this kid was an honor student... he could have also been a new member getting "jumped in" to the gang. You just don't know.

Getting involved in a situation that is not immediately clear is likely to get you sued, imprisoned or both.

 

[Deanimator]

In Chicago?

Walk away.

In that environment, no good is going to come from involving yourself in any way.

The entire socio-political structure is overwhelmingly DESIGNED to perpetuate such behavior and to crush those who would oppose it or the system which reinforces it.

Sometimes the good guys lose.

Sometimes there AREN'T any good guys.

 

[scottgun]

Many of the replies to this situation who would draw and fire make it sound like none of the other attackers could possibly be carrying a gun. If you take a shot at the 'leader' anyone of the other guys could pull out their gun and take a shot. With the mob attack there are going to be other attackers that are outside our your field of tunnel vision who would draw and fire to 'protect' their gang members.

Its a losing proposition to step into that situation.

 

[MisterMike]

This is Chicago. According to High Road mission statement you should be addressing this as a law abiding citizen. That means you wouldn't have a handgun, concealed or otherwise unless you're a peace officer or high powered local.

You're right. I'm a retired LEO, qualified in IL under the LEOSA. The sad truth is that most Illinoisans don't have the legal right to carry, though our laws are pretty reasonable as far as the general right to use deadly force in self-defense (contradictory, I know).

Nonetheless, while this incident occurred in Chicago, the question of the appropriate S&T applies anyplace one of this forum's members can legally carry--the only thing unique about this situation is that it was caught on video. This sort of thing repeats itself, though with myriad variations, on a daily basis throughout our country.

 

[Spartan452]

I have another question, kinda related to the OP

Lets say you were in Chicago, and you were the one getting the beating. However you happen to find a handgun lying on the ground and you use it in self defense?

What repercussion would occur?

 

[Deanimator]

Lets say you were in Chicago, and you were the one getting the beating. However you happen to find a handgun lying on the ground and you use it in self defense?

Highly implausible, however beating someone with a club is deadly force.

Even in Chicago, it is lawful to defend from deadly force with deadly force.

It's ALMOST a certainty that the shooting would be found to be justifiable. I say "ALMOST" because it is after all Chicago.

 

[mljdeckard]

This is a classic example of a situation where other people killing each other does NOT require me to risk getting killed as well. I would put my head down, get to a safe distance and call the police.

I am the one in here who is always telling people; "Self defense of a third party is a BAD freakin' idea." This case illustrates why. After the fact, there were conflicting eyewitness accounts that said the 'victim' here was well known as the aggressor and may well have instigated the fight. Again, for the millionth time, (And I haven't read the rest of the comments, this is not directed to anyone in particular,) If you don't ABSOLUTELY know EVERYTHING about the situation, don't pull your gun. You will go to jail.

Ok, I looked up in the last few comments, and Sheddy, that is the worst idea I have heard in a long time. Who taught you that A: You draw or shoot for any reason other than shoot to stop someone from killing you, and B: that shooting a gun into the air to scare people EVER makes a situation better?

 

[(Pb)]

Just remember that in Chicago, as in most places, you don't know who's armed and who's side their on. Just because they don't have it visible in the video doesn't mean it wouldn't come out if someone else showed up with a gun (you.) Drawing a weapon without using it could easily get you shot in the back.

 

[Route2]

The original question was, in this specific situation, what would your reaction be? I watched this video. Supposing that I rolled up on this scene, I really would not know who was who. Maybe the guy getting beat was a Good Samaritan; maybe he was a rapist who has just got-ten caught by a mob. Maybe he is innocent or maybe he is getting what he deserves. There is no way I can tell in this point in the action.
I agree with mljdeckard "Self defense of a third party is a BAD freakin' idea."

 

[Oyeboten]

The fatality, the teenager had originally come to the aid of someone else who was being beaten/hassled...if memory serve.


Too many people in that milieu...with more gathering...for any outsider who does not know the players, to have any chance of constructive intervention.


A group or mob, once their Blood is 'up' in excitement and drama, are poor listeners, they are focused in their emotions and 'tunnels' of impulse.


A scene like that...bear in mind, it is their Community, their Neighborhood, their acquaintances and friends and family-members...and an outsider has no idea who is who.

Someone appearing to be getting the worst of it at the moment, may have just before harmed or assaulted or injured or robbed someone else...maybe harmed someone's grandma, mom, child...who knows?


Threaten a seeming aggressor to 'Stop', and, you may well have five of his family/friends feeling you are the unwarranted 'aggressor'.


Too messy...

 

[Deanimator]

Just remember that in Chicago, as in most places, you don't know who's armed and who's side their on.

You LITERALLY don't know who's on whose side, and I mean ANYBODY.

I wouldn't get involved. I wouldn't even dial 911, ESPECIALLY if MY phone number could be identified.

Not only will no good come from getting involved in that kind of situation in Chicago, none CAN come from it.

There are NO good guys in that kind of thing and you will find NO "friends".

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Nonetheless, while this incident occurred in Chicago, the question of the appropriate S&T applies anyplace one of this forum's members can legally carry--the only thing unique about this situation is that it was caught on video. This sort of thing repeats itself, though with myriad variations, on a daily basis throughout our country.

That's a good point, but the question really pinpoints the Chicago beating.

I agree that people need to consider this for any place, especially their own daily routes or city/town. Having said that, with a sidearm there still isn't much you're going to do with a crowd of amped up teens brawling. Murphy's law also applies. What do you do if you stick your nose in it, go to fire a warning shot, and your bargain basement Glock or fancy pants 1911 jams solid? Then you're elbow deep in something with a bullseye on your own chest, no backup, no friends, and probably no way to outrun 20 or more people in their own neighborhood.

 

[LiquidTension]

Leave.

 

[NMGonzo]

Tough call ...

Dial 911 and move to a safe distance with a clear escape route.

 

[gondorian]

I think the best plan is just to stay away from the far south side. (and really shady areas in general)

 

[alohachris]

Bad situation all around. Tough choices to be made. The biggest single impediment to involving myself by 'coming to the rescue' is that I don't know the players or the story. Who is the person being beaten? What is the reason this person being beaten? Is he an honor student just trying to get where he's going or did he just rape someone's sister?

I would be more likely to intervene if the situation was more obvious by it's context, e.g. Man beating child, Group of men beating a woman, etc.

Given that I couldn't legally have a firearm in Chicago, There's virtually no way I'm taking on a crowd of assailants with harsh language and kung-fu. I'd Fall back, call 911 and be ready to render medical aid once the PD secured the scene.

 

[Sheddy]

Well in light of the fact it is Chicago so guns are out of the question, even yelling to break it up from an adult would have some effect. This isn't random adults on the mean streets of Chicago, its 16 and 17 year olds in high school. Yelling and saying the cops are coming(After having actually called them) alone can do some good.

One too many people making it sound like its 10 guys all aged 25, I'm not saying leaving is a poor option, but they're kids, so its a bit different as far as what will affect them in having them run off, etc.

 

[EHL]

One thing that appears to be overlooked her is that this happened in Chicago. Therefore gunfire is not a legal option.

Oh, in that case, I'd do nothing. Cuz I wouldn't be there. I wouldn't live in such an anti gun/pro bad guy state.

 

[Jeff White]

There are far too many members posting in this thread who have some rather naive ideas about what effect one person armed with a handgun can have on a violent mob.

You aren't going to stop that kind of mob violence by displaying your weapon, by firing a warning shot into the air or shooting the person you think is the leader. Those things work in the movies but they aren't viable tactics in real life.

The people who were involved in the beating were influenced by many factors, one of them being the sense on anonymity they get by being part of a group. Just like members on an internet forum often post things they would never say to someone face to face or even on the phone feel free to post those things when they feel they are anonymous behind their screen names, members of a group engaged in violent behavior like that are released from many of their inhibitions because they feel they are somewhat anonymous as a member of the group. The standards of normal conduct have been replaced by by whatever standards the mob has adopted at the time. I would bet that some of the kids who were involved weren't really bad kids with long criminal records, but just ordinary kids who just got caught up in the mob action. It's a lot easier then you think to get someone to act ways they themselves never thought they would when they are part of a mob like that.

This is about as good an explanation of this as I can find in an open source document:
www.history.ncdcr.gov/1898-wrrc/report/AppdxH.pdf

Goldstein defined a mob as “a crowd acting under strong emotional conditions that often lead to violence or illegal acts.” He further explained that a riot is “an instance of mob violence, with the destruction of property or looting, or violence against people.”

(105-106) To Goldstein, “mobs are the product of a process of evolution” and they are formed by people sharing the same “conscious or unconscious needs.” (108-109)

By his theory, the participants in a riot go through a process of “de-
individuation,” which he defines as “the process of losing one’s sense of individuality or separateness from others and becoming submerged in a group.” De-individuation results in the loss of one’s “individual responsibility” as well as the creation of a sense of anonymity, particularly from potential punishment for actions. De-individuated group members are characterized by un-inhibited behavior that is generally against the norm of accepted behavior. De-individuation can be facilitated by the inclusion of other factors
such as sensory overload and the introduction of drugs or alcohol. (30-33)

Way back in 1985 when I was a rookie reserve officer my FTO took me past a certain bar in town and told me, "Never, under any circumstances go in there alone! I don't care what you hear going on in there, wait for backup before you charge in!" The only way to deal with a number of people exhibiting this type of behavior is with overwhelming force. I hate to tell you all, but one person armed with a handgun is hardly overwhelming force to a mob.

To attempt any type of intervention would just make you a target. Your firearm wouldn't be a lot of protection against a group like that. Think about it for a minute. Do the police ever send just one officer to a call like that? No! Why do you think that is? It's because one officer would likely just be another victim. The only real course of action for a lone armed citizen is to get on the phone and get as large a response there as you can.

 

[Domina]

#20, #25 - I didn't intend to specifically limit response to a Chicago centric situation, but rather a situation of that character in general terms which might include the same event in other communities. I hope it wasn't taken as an endorsement to unlawful carry.

That said, I appreciate the Chicago civillian centric perspective, as some of the areas most likely to see this sort of violence seem to be areas where personal arms are forbidden.

I tend to agree with #32 and #44. You don't know who's who, or what the group will do.

Alone I think I would probably stay clear during the violence. If I had my family I'd definitely leave quickly. Especially in the context of Chicago it seems a non-police citizen would have little means available at hand to defend themselves let alone others.

As others have said, too many variables. There's no way to tell how the crowd would have reacted, no way to tell for sure who the target was until shortly before he was downed, and no way to tell why. Short of a group of people looking like riot police I can't think of a sure thing that would have dispersed the crowd. Unless perhaps you happen carry a high capacity OC fogger for just that sort of occasion.

And in the context of Chicago, say you did successfully drive off the crowd, and the victim was ok. You might find yourself being described as an assailant who attacked a group of boisterous youths if you were unpopular. Seems I've heard of stranger accusations that have been made, even stuck.

I think #40 and #43 had great advice: be in some other place/city/state than that neighborhood in Chicago, IL

 

[rbohm]

i think in that situation the best thing to do is to call the police, and back off to a safe distance. record the goings on for evidence. unless you have a marine force recon or navy seal fire team, i wouldnt wade into that melee.

 

[gego]

If I were just passing by, I would have left quickly. The situation looked so chaotic that it would have been difficult for me to even know who were the aggressors and who was trying to defend himself. When you come into a movie half way over, it takes a while to pick up on the plot and the characters.

If I were locked into a life like so many of those kids, with constant danger and little hope, I suppose I would carry illegally and shoot to defend myself, but I would not bother to help others, cause I would probably have learned to have a low regard for the lives of others myself.

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

There are far too many members posting in this thread who have some rather naive ideas about what effect one person armed with a handgun can have on a violent mob.

Once again, thanks Jeff. I was thinking the same thing. Some of these posts have made me almost burst into laughter.

 

[jbrown50]

Very well said Jeff.

Shooting the bad guys in a situation like this would only make you the assailant and the bad guys the victims. The news media and the anti's would have a field day with that. It would be just what they needed in order to draw attention away from their unwillingness to address the root problems, that are the cause of melees like this, and onto guns.

It's sad that the young man was murdered but sometimes this is what it takes in order to help naive people to understand better that politics aren't the answer to the worlds social problems.

 

[Deanimator]

One too many people making it sound like its 10 guys all aged 25, I'm not saying leaving is a poor option, but they're kids, so its a bit different as far as what will affect them in having them run off, etc.

"Kids"?

Clearly:

1. You've never lived in Chicago.

2. You've never lived anywhere near where the murder actually happened.

I've done both.

Those things are invariably gang related. They don't give any more of a crap about your opinions than the Serbs and the Kosovars in Kosovo did. These things happen over issues of real power and money. Your being an "adult" means no more to them than your shoe size. Their attitude is going to be, "Shut up and buy some dope or get lost... literally."

There are no "good guys" in that situation, just people fighting over territory, power and money. If you talk to the cops, you'll be the ONLY one who does, for all the good in the world that does... other than make YOU a target for organized criminal gangs with tentacles DEEP within the system.

Don't get involved in ANY way. Stay away. If somehow you find yourself in close proximity to such goings on, LEAVE.