How could I have better reacted to this threat?

[gamestalker]

This is a very important thread to me, my ears are open for any and all suggestions, and, or criticism. Although I was unfortunate enough to experience this situation, it is not about me but mroe so about what one could do different in such a situation.

What to do if someone randomly tries to strip your firearm out of your holster in a busy convenience store line? Generally speaking, I would really like to know what would be the best manner in which to respond to such a random, unanticipated, and unprovoked situation. And as well, specifically regarding an elderly disabled man, 120 lbs. facing a 20-ish year old thug, gang banger type.

I was completely surprised and caught off guard and still wonder what could I have done different? I was fortunate in that this thug couldn't figure out how to unsnap my holster, that is all that went right for me that day, it certainly didn't have anything to do with how I reacted, or didn't to be honest. As follows, there were two lines at the cash register, he was in one, I was in the other. And then as casual as could be he just reached over while facing me and grabbed the the grips and started jerking on the gun real hard. There was no struggle really, which is the part of this that bothers me cause I was dumb struck, and just kind of stood there for about 3 seconds or so. I wasn't so much that I frozen in fear either, I was just completely shocked and surprised. When I came to my senses I swung my elbow down sharp on his wrist and broke his hold on the weapon, he instantly went back for it again, but I had my hand on the grips by that time. He stopped at this point and then started saying "I'm just playin dog" paid for his merchandise and left.

I would imagine the first step to help prevent such an incident would be to not wear my firearm open carry. But in consideration of those who wear OC or CC, I think the biggest contributor in this circumstance was likely the fact that I was totally unaware of my surroundings, which caused my reaction time to be horrible.

Any thoughts please, and be frank with me, you don't know the half regarding how many times I've randomly been faced with deadly situations. I sometimes feel like I have a sign across my forehead that only bad guys can see, it says" pick me to be your next victim", seriously.
GS

 

[Fred_G]

First off, I am glad you are ok. I am learning some of this slowly, great to have a good shooting instructor.

Read this: http://www.tacticalintelligence.net/blog/the-color-code-of-awareness.htm

Not the best link, but gives you an idea.

 

[zorro45]

With all due respect GS you have had more excitement lately than most of us here, glad to hear it worked out ok for you, but I would think about a cover garment. A good retention holster and some retention training, you might have gotten lucky in thwarting this guy, next time might not turn out so well.

 

[creeper1956]

As an elderly, disabled 120 lb man, facing a 20-ish year old thug, gang banger type...

I've taken a few statements of yours and combined them to reflect what I see as the more critical elements to your story.
This man looked to take advantage of what he perceived to be a better than 50/50 chance of getting a free gun. He did not see you as a serious threat, until you actually got control of your weapon.

I would imagine the first step to help prevent such an incident would be to not wear my firearm open carry.

Please be advised that this is my opinion... take it for what it is.

That would most certainly be the first step. Aside from the obvious, you have a tactical advantage when you CC that you do not when you OC. Had you not appeared to be armed, he would not have made an attempt to take your gun in the first place. Had he done something illegal that you deemed sufficient to draw your gun, you would have had him, again, at a tactical advantage.

I do not understand the concept of open carry in a society where open carry is not the norm... and in unfamiliar surroundings, I certainly don't understand the concept of showing the world my level of threat response. That's what a CC is, a tactical, elevated threat response potential. What OC is... does not make people more comfortable, only threatened and stupid. Your attacker, thankfully, being the later.

I apologize for repeating the term "tactical advantage" more than once... but there is no term that replaces it. "Get the jump on 'em" and "Surprise MF'er!!!", doesn't quite do it.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Probably would either have pepper sprayed him
or put a hand over his, smiled, and quietly and gently asked how badly he wants to die.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Well first let me say that I'm glad you're ok. That could have ended much much worse.

Second, this is the Strategies and Tactics forum and there's different things you can do. How to avoid this, and what to do if you can't. First, change some behavior patterns. Things like sitting with your back to the wall at a table, using a stall at a public restroom even to urinate, keeping your weapon had free. Also keeping your weapon pointed away from people. Blade your body so your weapon side is far from people. Even pick a grocery line where your weapon side is next to a wall, even if the line is longer. The idea is to always orient your body so that your weapon is the farthest from possible threats. And so that your eyes can be on others. Next, evaluate your holster choice. Is it really up to the task of retention? Is it physically strong enough? Can it be detached from your body? Can the weapon be removed easily by another? The decision whether or not to open carry plays a large part in this too. Yes it can be a deterrent, but it can also be an invitation. In your case, it was an invitation.

Most importantly: training. The strategy that gives your tactics. Go find a local firearms instructor and learn some weapons retention techniques. What may work for a young fit man might not work for an elderly gentleman. A firearms instructor should be able to sow you some things that are best for you. And the practice them. Have family member try to remove your unloaded weapon from your holster and gently go through the motions of retaining it to build the skill. Training is a HUGE factor in weapons retention, more so than holster choice.

I can tell you that from a mindset standpoint, your life was in danger. I personally have been trained through my involvement with law enforcement and the military to retain my weapon, and part of that training involves creating a distance gap, drawing, and firing at the threat. An attempt to get your weapon is an attempt to kill you. It's not just a theft. It's a threat on your life and should be treated as such. Avoiding placing yourself in situations where one might be tempted to take your firearm is paramount because if it does happen, one of the next steps is neutralizing the threat. Despite what the criminal said, he was NOT joking.

You might also consider OC spray and maybe a folding knife or a small backup gun on your support side. Though in this particular case, those probably would not have helped. My own training in retention generally involves these steps.

1: Trap the attackers hand with your strong hand while twisting your body away from him
2: Strike the attacker with your support hand in a vital area such as a palm-heel strike to the face, the brachial nerves on the side of the neck, or the trachea.
3: Try to create distance between you and the attacker
4: Draw your weapon and neutralize the attack.

Basically; keep him from getting the gun, get away from him, and shoot him. Someone going for your weapon is not a time to be polite or try to talk him down. It's an attempt on your life, as sure as a knife to the throat. Respond accordingly.

 

[beatledog7]

GS, as I read this I don't get the impression you're in a wheelchair, so I'm assuming you were standing and that there were some other people around.

Two things come to my mind: a defensive cane, and some well selected words of admonishment. Use of a defensive cane is not my expertise, but I'm learning. Words are more in my wheelhouse. I might have given him a thrust to the ribs with my cane and said something like, "Hands off my gun there, fella, or I'll shoot you with the other one right here in front of all these people."

I'm 99% sure that would have ended it.

 

[dab102999]

I cant go to the site listed right now but i am sure there are alot of good sugestions on there. But all i can say is i am lucky enought to say i ak always aware of my suroundings all the time. Enev though i am just finishing up the process of my cpl in michigan i carried for kany years in indiana. Most of the time conceled but if the weather was to warm not concerened if open carry. But whenever standing in line i always had, and still do have my back to something. And always look at who i am standing next to. And the only thing i would have done different is put my hand on the gun, keep it in the holster, keep my hand on the gun. And called police. They might not have done anything but at least they would have run his name, and i am sure gave him a little talking to. With that happening the way you say i am sure there were witnesses and probably video to back your side.

 

[45_auto]

If you open carry then you have to accept the risk of a gun grab. Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Most civilian holsters are just a carrier with maybe a strap to keep the gun from falling out if you bend over. If you're going to open carry, you should at least use a holster that's designed to prevent gun grabs.

For example, something like this Safariland that requires the thumb break, release tab, and correct weapon manipulation to release the ejection port lock. With practice, you can draw from it as quickly as you can from a holster with no retention features.

http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/product.aspx?pid=070

2 days of the annual 2 week long in-service training in my department consists of weapon retention techniques, basically the same as those described by Ragnar Danneskjold. We are also required to use a Level III retention holster.

Realistically, a "120 pound elderly disabled man" against a "20-ish year old thug, gang banger type", is at a severe physical disadvantage. Any reaction time to the surprise attack just adds to your disadvantage. It was pure luck that he didn't get your gun, he obviously didn't want it too badly. He most likely just thought that it would be cool to show that he could take it away from you.

If you insist on open carry, the best you can do is to get a holster with the best retention features you can find and practice with it. You don't have eyes in the back of your head so you don't know what the guy in line behind you is doing. As you found out, you also have no clue what the guy standing next to you is going to do. No matter how much people talk about "situational awareness" or being in "condition yellow", there's no way to always have a wall at your back or anticipate what's going to happen in daily close contact interactions. Action beats reaction - you're behind the curve from the start.

The primary characteristic that often distinguishes duty holsters from all other holster designs is retention. Modern law enforcement duty holsters are available with varying levels of retention security (i.e. Level I, Level II, Level II+, Level III, etc.;[1] some security features are passive (such as retention screws, decoy straps, or hood guards), while others are active and require deliberate manipulation by the officer during the draw (such as traditional thumb break snaps). While a higher level of retention will make it more difficult for a suspect to snatch a holstered handgun away from an officer, it may also reduce the speed and ease with which an officer may draw his handgun (especially if the security features are active and not passive). Therefore, when selecting a duty holster, an officer may be forced to find a compromise of speed and retention that he/she is comfortable with.

I suspect that an elderly civilian would be more susceptible to a gun grab then a uniformed officer. I believe that an offender would know that a uniformed officer is trained to react violently to a gun grab, while an elderly civilian open carrying will probably have no training and no practice at defending a gun grab. Even most cops only practice gun grab defense when they have to at annual required training sessions, the only thing they have going for them are the holster retention features.

 

[JustinJ]

If one open carries i would think it wise to dress in a manner that appears as though you are doing so in an official capacity. A tucked in button up shirt seems to be the norm for non-uniformed LE in my area. Highly unlikely the kid would have pulled such an act if the suspected for a moment you were LE or what not. Obviously i am not adovacating one impersonate an officer.

 

[beatledog7]

Legal expert I'm not, but wouldn't trying to forcibly remove something from another's person be considered assault?

 

[Certaindeaf]

A thumb in his eyesocket is how you play with those dogs. I'd suggest not open carry.

 

[Rexster]

Well, first of all, just for the tactics, not strategy: standing there for those three seconds was a major blunder, in and of itself. Denial is powerful. It is good to be lucky; the next time, luck may not be with you.

A logical immediate action, if an opponent's hand is on your holstered weapon, is to trap his hand under your weapon-side hand, with a very, very firm grip. Bring your support hand down onto the forearm attached to the hand you are gripping, and drop your weight so that as much of your body weight as possible is bearing down, through your support side hand, onto his forearm. Get your abdominal oblique muscles involved; you are doing a diagonal crunch, in addition to your body weight. (This is the twisting motion mentioned by Ragnar Danneskjold.) Use his forearm as a lever as you peel him off of your gun, and simultaneously drive him to the ground. As his hand comes free of your gun, you are doing an arm-bar take-down. Having broken the momentum of the attack, with the opponent
hopefully on the ground, it is time, for most private citizens, to create distance and present the weapon, or just employ the Nike Defense, depending upon the totality of circumstances.

I hope my above narrative has been understandable, but really, it should be learned from an instructor, not my brief summary. There are subleties and variables that I am sure I am forgetting, especially as I am fatigued from a 12-hour night shift, yet amped from breaking up a fight between two of our dogs. This action must be performed decisively, before the attacker has a chance to foil your moves my footwork and shifting his weight, or perhaps decides to grab your arm and do an arm-bar to drive your face to the floor.

This empty-hand technique is MORE important, IMHO, than wasting time trying to deploy a secondary weapon wth your support hand. Yes, I do indeed carry a
second weapon, but Plan A is what I described above. I make no claim to this being the only way, or perfect for all scenarios, but a mediocre plan, executed swiftly and decisively, right now, is better than a perfect plan that is attempted too late. The good thing about training is that variables can be introduced, and alternatives tried. Training also helps with stesss inoculation, which will lessen the likelihood of a repeat of those three seconds of hesitation.

 

[JustinJ]

The described weapons retention techniques seem to not account for the following statement of the OP:

And as well, specifically regarding an elderly disabled man, 120 lbs. facing a 20-ish year old thug, gang banger type.

The only practical answer I see is to figure out a way to deter others from attempting a grab and the best way is to carry concealed.

 

[Rexster]

As for strategy, Ragnar Danneskjold addressed positioning very well; keep your gun side away from other folks, or otherwise protected.

Oh, and please, if it is legally permissible, conceal the weapons when amongst unfamiliar folks.

 

[Rexster]

The technique I described is based more upon leverage than strength, and performing the movements decisively and swiftly amplfies effectiveness. I would think that my tiny father-in -law could have performed such moves into his nineties; he could put up a mighty struggle when we had to restrain him for his own safety.

 

[MedWheeler]

Last year, a police officer in Tennessee was standing at a urinal in a restaurant when his sidearm was grabbed suddenly by an attacker who had come in behind him. With his "service" hand, the officer restrained his sidearm and the assailant's hand, and with his other hand, he drew his patrol knife and cut his attacker off of his gun.
A good blade in the thigh of a significantly-stronger adversary will make him re-think his itinerary real quickly.

 

[RustHunter87]

Id also suggest a 2nd weapon of some kind, I dont open carry in town but i almost always have a good knife, gun or no

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Carry concealed.

As you just learned an openly carried gun provides no deterrent effect. In fact it made you a target for assault.

The drunk, the drugged, the psychotic and the daring often do not behave like a common "rational" person.

Perhaps, based on your own description of yourself, you appear to be an "easy" victim.

Would increased awareness have prevented the situation? Probably not, as it appears there was nothing in your attacker's demeanor that caught your attention beforehand.

I'm glad for you that you didn't lose your gun. Who know what he would have done with it if he was successful in taking it away from you.

 

[gamestalker]

I really appreciate all the helpful suggestions, truelly. As for the several seconds, that was in fact a major blunder on my part. I take absolutely no offense to any comments. The reason I posted this thread is because I need to hear from those with training, to which I am very open minded. Most times, and the result of the multiple deadly situations I've encountered, I am on constant alert and very aware of my surroundings, just not that particular day for some reason. I absolutely blew it and take no degree of offense to those who have pointed that out.

I've open carried for more than 40 yrs. based on the thought that it can be a deterent, obviously not always though. Now days I find myself doing more CC as a result of that incident however.

My carry weapon is usually a snubby S&W 66 with a Bianchi thumb snap holster, the molded to fit k frame type. It requires some knowledge and a fair degree of effort to release it. If anyone can point me in the direction of a better open carry holster, I would really appreciate it.

Again, thanks to all for the suggestions and thoughts on how to improve my odds of surviving such circumstances.

GS

 

[xXxplosive]

I may be way off base with this one.....but.....IMO, if someone makes a grab for my sidearm, it's not gonna end with an elbow to the hand and a smile.
IMO, I'm being assaulted, robbed, mugged or worse if he gets hold of my handgun.
Surely, one or both of us would have been on our way to the Graybar Hotel....it would not have ended good.
Furthermore........I do not OC ever....no advertising here.

 

[Cosmoline]

I wasn't so much that I frozen in fear either, I was just completely shocked and surprised. When I came to my senses I swung my elbow down sharp on his wrist and broke his hold on the weapon, he instantly went back for it again, but I had my hand on the grips by that time. He stopped at this point and then started saying "I'm just playin dog" paid for his merchandise and left.

I've also had issues with the "deer in the headlights" reaction. The only solution appears to be the right kind of training. You have to reach the parts of your brain and muscle-memory that WILL be able to react quickly enough. Conscious mindset only reaches your higher cortex, and it takes a few seconds for it to process the information, analyze it and react. Thus the problem of standing there not knowing what to do for what seems like an eternity.

As for the several seconds, that was in fact a major blunder on my part.

I don't think blunder is the right word. It's more biological than intentional. And it afflicts a lot of people including professional LEO's, soldiers and others who have had the standard training. The mind gets locked into the usual tasks, and has no prewired reaction to something like a nutcase trying to grab your sidearm so casually. So the higher brain has to assess the situation and try to sort out what's happening and what the reaction should be. This simply takes a few moments.

It's important not to get too hung up on the OC aspect here. The "deer in headlights" problem crops up in all kinds of circumstances. For example the amiable looking man who approaches you on the street with a smile, acts like he's going to ask directions and instead swings a knife at you. The human tendency is to be extremely confused for a moment or two, and that's precisely what he's counting on.

 

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

I am also glad to hear that you are ok. I don't know what to tell you, mainly because I wasn't there. But "I'm just playing dog" would not cut it with me. I guess that he is lucky that you did not draw on him. Not only would that be robbery, but it could be worse being as he was trying to take a firearm from you. Again, GS, I am glad you are not hurt.

I am a weirdo though, if someone is in or near my personal space, I am already in a defensive state of mind and position. Not to say, I would not have been utterly shocked too. I conceal carry and often find myself with my hand near my pocket(excuse to have it near my waistline), when people just get too close. I am not paranoid at all, I just don't trust anyone I do not know.

 

[1911 guy]

That's precisely why I carry a fixed blade knife on my off side. Someone tugs at my gun, I'll ID the threat and abort if needed mid stroke. Deep, wide and consistent.

 

[xXxplosive]

Ouch.............