How could I have better reacted to this threat?

[walking arsenal]

Situational awareness is the best deterrent.

When I stand in a line at a grocery I stand sideways with my hip close to the cart.

If someone is in line beside me I stand with my hip bladed to the counter or the back of the person ahead of me.

Carrying concealed is a good idea too.

 

[Pussywillow]

Rex Applegates weapon retention. A long read but well worth it IMO:


http://www.usacarry.com/forums/utah-discussion-firearm-news/3578-weapon-retention-long-read.html

 

[skoro]

Any thoughts please, and be frank with me...

This how I would probably have reacted, so it's free advice and worth exactly what you paid for it.

Punch him in the Adam's apple. Hard. That will immediately take his mind off grabbing your weapon and give him an important problem to begin working on - like trying to breathe. You were faced with a deadly situation and you were fortunate to emerge unharmed. I'm in my 60s, so "elderly" like you. But I'm also 6 ft tall and 220 lbs. But even in your case with such a physical disparity with your attacker, this action would work. No one has a tough throat. Not John Wayne, Arnold Schwartzenegger, or Sylvester Stallone.

If that punk had been able to get your weapon, who knows what the next step of his plan would have been. Armed robbery of that convenience store? Robbing everyone in the cash register lines? Shooting anyone who resisted?

I hope you gave a good description to the police.

 

[mrokern]

If you grab my gun, I'm breaking your arm, whether I'm on duty or off (federal security). That said, I always carry concealed when I'm not working unless I'm teaching a class.

I also have an offhand knife when I'm working or carrying openly for classes. Hard to grab my gun if I'm slicing your wrist to the bone.

Weapon retention 101: in a gun grab attempt, you need to fight as hard and violently as you can.

I'm glad things worked out. Hence, your reaction was technically a success for that encounter.

But it's not how I'd react.

 

[mljdeckard]

I'm not reading through all of the responses.

Anyone who tries to disarm you must be regarded as a deadly threat. No good can come from it.

Most of the retention techniques I teach come from Tiger McKee's "The Book of Two Guns".

 

[rquack]

I've learned a lot by reading this thread. I'm a 58 yr old man who is beginning the downward physical spiral. This has given me lots to think about.

Comments: Your retention holster worked just as it was designed to work. It prevented unauthorized access to your weapon, even in your surprised state with delayed reactions. Don't be too anxious to cast off something that has proven to work for you. Next, at minimum a turn and shove away was warranted [I know those lines can be tight spots]. But as stated above, distance is your friend, even if only a few feet, while engaging your own weapon.

Also: You MAY be overestimating your actual time to reaction. In cases like this we tend to think faster than we react, which can give us a sense of delay. But sometimes the delay is real and not perceived. Only you can be the best judge of this factor.

My only similar [but not even close] experience involved a family member brushing her hands over my hip [while I was carrying] and I abruptly dropped my arms, turned, and twisted her off of her feet in the kitchen. Shock and surprise followed. Nobody is allowed to touch my gun. If you're curious if I'm carrying [and I know you] ask, don't touch me.

This thread has given me much to consider on those isolated occasions when I have chosen to open carry. Maybe as we get older, concealing is a better way to go.

I am thankful for you bringing this incident forward and relating it so clearly. And for the analysis and reactive and awareness strategies offered. This is very valuable information. My wife will be getting her concealed carry permit over the next several weeks; this will be mandatory reading for her.

 

[mrokern]

This thread has given me much to consider on those isolated occasions when I have chosen to open carry. Maybe as we get older, concealing is a better way to go.

I used to open carry quite a bit more, before I started carrying a gun "professionally" (hate the word, but you get my drift). After a few go-arounds of defensive tactics and awareness training, I'm much more attentive to where hands are in relation to my weapon. I do carry a level 3 holster on my gun belt, even though compared to, say, city LE we are unlikely to have to get down and dirty with a suspect since we work inside already heavily restricted areas most of the time. One time is all it takes.

It's actually a good bit more stressful to me now to have an openly carried gun. I much prefer concealed, even carrying a full-size.

Absolutely agree with the thank you to OP. This is a good and important topic...and one likely to actually occur to some folks.

-Mark

 

[Sandshooter]

1. He wasn't playing!
2. Use his own weight to throw him off balance and pull him to the ground retaining control.
3. Knuckle fist to the throat, palm to the nose or whatever you can do to take the fight out of him.
4. Have someone call 911 ASAP! You are lucky to have the common sense to have a locking holster, but this guy just walked away from a felony!
Lethal force was not justified, but keeping him there until the police could arrest him was.
I'm glad you are still here to tell the tale, but this was a matter of life or death and should have been treated as such! I'm not second guessing anything you did, because I wasn't there, nobody got hurt and you are still alive. Thanks for the GREAT post to help people think about what they would have done.

 

[bdgackle]

Excellent discussion.

I wonder about the people saying you should have drawn and kept the guy there, though. There is no question that this was a deadly threat while the gun was being pulled on, but once the other guy disengaged and started to leave, isn't simply letting him leave and reporting the incident the best course of action? It seems like keeping him there is more likely to result in someone getting hurt -- especially if this guy has a friend or two right outside, and they have guns of their own.

It also seems to raise the probability that you will have to pull the trigger, which carries costs and risks even if you ARE 100% in the right. Especially in this case -- you were faced with the prospect of having to shoot a (at least visibly) unarmed man. A good shoot is a good shoot -- but the burden is mostly on you to prove that. Why take that risk if the other guy is willing to back down?

Most of us aren't police officers. Even if we have the training on how to keep someone subdued (and most of us don't), we still lack the equipment (do you carry handcuffs? what about a radio?) to do that safely. We're talking about a whole other skill set here that is distinct from shooting. Not to mention the legal protections that are extended to actual LEO's that go above and beyond those given to non-LEO's. The whole "citizen's arrest" concept seems to place you on very shaky ground, legally.

In my mind, you shoot if you have to shoot... but if you aren't immediately going to pull the trigger, then the next priority is to place as much distance between you and the other guy as humanly possible. Letting the other guy "get away" seems like a reasonable way to achieve this.

The ultimate goal is to minimize the consequences to yourself and any innocent bystanders. The result in this case might have been mostly dumb luck -- but the outcome was the best that could be expected.

In the end, the OP put his hand on his gun, and the other guy backed down. This was the minimum amount of force needed to end the attack, and was therefore the correct amount of force to apply.

 

[Sandshooter]

As a responsible concealed carry permit holder, the only time that pistol leaves the holster is to be stored or to end someones life...PERIOD!

If you draw the weapon to keep the man at bay you are playing police officer and endangering lives. Now if you were in an all out fight over control over the weapon and your life then you would have been justified in my opinion. (Sounds like a case in Florida)

You are the only person that can tell if your life is in immediate danger and don't let anyones posts or comments cloud your judgement. The main thing is that you did live to post the discussion for that and we are all greatfull! Everyone has different skill sets and this situation could have had a million different outcomes, but you made your choices and I can fully respect that. Everything else you read here is pure speculation. Have a Great Life and live for today!!!