Glad to hear you're OK. Not sure what I would have done, but I like to think I'd have drawn on him and proned him out for the po-po to haul away for attempted assault at least. Making a grab for someone's weapon is pretty serious, he absolutely shouldn't have been allowed to walk away. JMHO.
How could I have better reacted to this threat?
- Thread starter gamestalker
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gamestalker
member
It's no mystery here, I deffinitely made multiple mistakes, one of which was allowing him to just walk away. The most disturbing aspect of this being that I've been in similar, yet much worse situations in which I reacted exceptionally faster, and with much better judgment, this was not one of those situations.
Way back when I started open carrying it seemed that bad guys were not as bold, so OC-ing probablly served as a better deterent. I'm now reconsidering that mind set, and have been doing a lot more CC as a result. But as some have pointed out, it wasn't just open carrying that was my mistake, I made more than one that day which includes me being oblivious to my surroundings and firearm.
Thanks to all who have addressed this topic, your thoughts have given me a lot to work with that will help me avoid such situations in the future. As for training, I have had a good deal of professional training, I just didn't employ any of it that day for some unexcusable reason?
GS
Way back when I started open carrying it seemed that bad guys were not as bold, so OC-ing probablly served as a better deterent. I'm now reconsidering that mind set, and have been doing a lot more CC as a result. But as some have pointed out, it wasn't just open carrying that was my mistake, I made more than one that day which includes me being oblivious to my surroundings and firearm.
Thanks to all who have addressed this topic, your thoughts have given me a lot to work with that will help me avoid such situations in the future. As for training, I have had a good deal of professional training, I just didn't employ any of it that day for some unexcusable reason?
GS
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
Unfortunately for all of us, training can go away if not used or practiced. It's one thing to learn something. It's something else to have in repeatedly ingrained in you so it can be called upon subconsciously. God knows there are many thing I've learned that I've forgotten due to lack of repeated practice. It's something we all have to be vigilant of. Even 10 minutes practicing retention every week or so can pay off tremendously.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
I have had a good deal of professional training, I just didn't employ any of it that day for some unexcusable reason?
It might very well have been a "freeze" phenomenon that you experienced. People talk about "fight or flight" being an instinctive reaction to stress of this nature, but as often or more often than "fight or flight," "freeze" is what happens to people.
The answer IMHO is to internalize your training, make it part of your mindset, admit fully to yourself that "this COULD happen to me," and work on incorporating the possibility of things like that happening into your situational awareness mental dialogue, the "if he does this, then I do that" sort of thought process that should be running as a subchannel in your mind whenever you are out in public and armed. And practice what you've trained...
It might very well have been a "freeze" phenomenon that you experienced. People talk about "fight or flight" being an instinctive reaction to stress of this nature, but as often or more often than "fight or flight," "freeze" is what happens to people.
The answer IMHO is to internalize your training, make it part of your mindset, admit fully to yourself that "this COULD happen to me," and work on incorporating the possibility of things like that happening into your situational awareness mental dialogue, the "if he does this, then I do that" sort of thought process that should be running as a subchannel in your mind whenever you are out in public and armed. And practice what you've trained...
CharlieDeltaJuliet
Member
Ragnar is absolutly correct. I have to practice about 1 1/2 to 2 times as much to stay as proficient as I once was. As I get older my reflexes are slower, but I'd like to think I make it up with better awareness and more rational thinking. I know people that have a plan for everything, seriously, every situation I could dream of. But they NEVER practice. They do not believe that even the best laid plans got to pot when the situation ges serious.
What I am trying to say in my long winded way is, work on situations like this. If you can find someone to help, by trying to disarm you it might help. I applaud you though for keeping a cool head. While your response might not be, what some might say, perfect, I think you did good on not panicking and delivering the elbow. So while you might find a few things to work on, hold your head up you did not let him make you a victim.
What I am trying to say in my long winded way is, work on situations like this. If you can find someone to help, by trying to disarm you it might help. I applaud you though for keeping a cool head. While your response might not be, what some might say, perfect, I think you did good on not panicking and delivering the elbow. So while you might find a few things to work on, hold your head up you did not let him make you a victim.
Claude Clay
Member
good that luck was with you that day.
I'd been carrying for a short time when i reasoned that i may have to prevent someone from getting my gun...much as you experienced.
i already only used holsters with retention and figured if they are close enough to handle me than i needed some H2H training. this i received from a Master and 40 odd years later the reflexes are still with me.
how's your health? can you take up a martial arts now?
if so it will benefit you in other ways also. learning to fall may prevent damaging a hip--a kiss of death for many elderly...i mean that for when you are older...
the punk saw it, so better concealing is also something you can do.
and you were caught unaweare...so retraining SA is on your to-do list.
and think through that you did nothing as he struggled with your gun...
I'd been carrying for a short time when i reasoned that i may have to prevent someone from getting my gun...much as you experienced.
i already only used holsters with retention and figured if they are close enough to handle me than i needed some H2H training. this i received from a Master and 40 odd years later the reflexes are still with me.
how's your health? can you take up a martial arts now?
if so it will benefit you in other ways also. learning to fall may prevent damaging a hip--a kiss of death for many elderly...i mean that for when you are older...
the punk saw it, so better concealing is also something you can do.
and you were caught unaweare...so retraining SA is on your to-do list.
and think through that you did nothing as he struggled with your gun...
I have a standard recommendation I give everyone who is going to carry a gun for self defense:
Go to a Krav Maga class. I mean military Krav Maga, not trendy "self defense" or even anything that's toned down for law enforcement. The real deal has plenty of training using firearms, defense against firearms, edged and blunt weapons, including defense against assailant who is reaching for your personal weapon. By the level of practitioner 5 or 6 you're going to be quite proficient in responding to armed threats and attempts to disarm you. If you're concerned about your safety, carrying a gun is one thing, training to use it and protect it (as well as yourself) in all ways imaginable is another.
I switched over to KM back in the 90's and never looked back. Having already a martial arts background of 20 years at that point, it was a massive eye-opener to what effective self defense actually is. Seeing a bunch of blue guns and real knives lined up for practice only a couple of months after I started was admittedly a shock, but the real benefit is that after a while you develop a sensory aquity of your surroundings at all times, as well as a natural tendency to avoid confrontation or dangerous situations. Even natural ability to spot potentially aggressive individuals in advance.
There are excellent alternatives, too. Russian systema, for example. Just make sure that you don't end up at a watered down "full contact ballet and gymnastics" class that are all too common nowadays.
Go to a Krav Maga class. I mean military Krav Maga, not trendy "self defense" or even anything that's toned down for law enforcement. The real deal has plenty of training using firearms, defense against firearms, edged and blunt weapons, including defense against assailant who is reaching for your personal weapon. By the level of practitioner 5 or 6 you're going to be quite proficient in responding to armed threats and attempts to disarm you. If you're concerned about your safety, carrying a gun is one thing, training to use it and protect it (as well as yourself) in all ways imaginable is another.
I switched over to KM back in the 90's and never looked back. Having already a martial arts background of 20 years at that point, it was a massive eye-opener to what effective self defense actually is. Seeing a bunch of blue guns and real knives lined up for practice only a couple of months after I started was admittedly a shock, but the real benefit is that after a while you develop a sensory aquity of your surroundings at all times, as well as a natural tendency to avoid confrontation or dangerous situations. Even natural ability to spot potentially aggressive individuals in advance.
There are excellent alternatives, too. Russian systema, for example. Just make sure that you don't end up at a watered down "full contact ballet and gymnastics" class that are all too common nowadays.
Zombiphobia
Member
- Joined
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Retain your weapon and shoot them.
I'm surprised the end to that situation was, "I'm just playin', dog" and him walking out of the store.
I'd have more expected it to end with him at the business end of that pistol, waiting for the police to arrive for his arrest for the attempted assault or theft.
The store security camera would have been helpful, as would have been all the other people waiting in line.
With regard to the "fight or flight", none of us knows how we will react when in such a situation. I know that the first night I flew into combat, the sight of all that AAA and SAMs scared the living begeezus out of me, and I was a well trained and experienced fighter pilot at that time.
I'd have more expected it to end with him at the business end of that pistol, waiting for the police to arrive for his arrest for the attempted assault or theft.
The store security camera would have been helpful, as would have been all the other people waiting in line.
With regard to the "fight or flight", none of us knows how we will react when in such a situation. I know that the first night I flew into combat, the sight of all that AAA and SAMs scared the living begeezus out of me, and I was a well trained and experienced fighter pilot at that time.
gamestalker
member
Thanks again for the support, advice, and respect for what I encountered that day! You are a good bunch of people to which I have a great deal of respect for your opinions and advice.
Sincerely, GS
Sincerely, GS
armedwalleye
Member
The flat side of the back of the elbow when driven backward with force at shoulder height normally makes contact quite readily with an offender's nose and will cause his pullback reaction and disengagement, allowing you time to further react, gain distance and face the threat, who will likely be sprawled backward on the floor.
In the instance where you see such an individual gaining on you when walking, a slight step toward your offhand side can allow the offender's outstrwched hand to reach past. Grab that wrist with the weak side hand and hold the individual there while applying the same elbow. His inability to move with the application of the elbow increases the effect.
In the instance where you see such an individual gaining on you when walking, a slight step toward your offhand side can allow the offender's outstrwched hand to reach past. Grab that wrist with the weak side hand and hold the individual there while applying the same elbow. His inability to move with the application of the elbow increases the effect.
Ramone
Member
death grip with strong hand on his over the pistol.
Take a long step with your strong side leg, turning as far as you can in the process.
Sit down.
Take a long step with your strong side leg, turning as far as you can in the process.
Sit down.
Knockdownpower
Member
As someone else said earlier, thumbs in the eye balls is a great response followed up by a knee to the groin and perhaps a pistol whip to the back of the neck. Then move back a few big steps and hold them at gun point untill the local LEO's show up. At least thats what I hope I would do in that situation, but you never really know untill your training is put to the test. Good thinking employing the elbow to the wrist, that was probably the game changer for you. Glad your ok, keep your head up and good luck.
oneounceload
member
Exactly why I never understood the desire to open carry - it's like saying "steal my gun"
and if you are elderly and somewhat frail of small, you are a walking invitation for some young punk to disarm you
SSN Vet
Member
I'll make a slightly different point than what I've seen so far (read all OPs posts and skimmed the rest)... sorry if I'm redundant.
I am of the personal opinion people should not rely upon their handgun as their primary defense tool... whether OC or concealed. Mindset is king in my book... so depend on your wits. As already mentioned, situational awareness is a big part of that. A handgun is just a tool to expand your options, but the use of motion and speech can also be very effective tools. Who knows, maybe this BG was entertaining himself by picking on "a little old man who thinks he's some kind of cowboy" and would not have actually stolen or used your gun. A sassy attitude with a few "get the he** off of me" may have put him off.
Something I learned way back in the day when I was very much into martial arts, is that most of your "tools" and techniques (whether they be offensive, defensive, evasion or flight) require a minimum distance between you and the "problem", and you might not be able to use them if somebody gets "inside" on you. Once that happens your in a grappling & wrestling match.
So part of interpreting your surroundings should be keeping an eye on how close people come to you. And if a conflict erupts with a person who is 2' or less from you, unless you can instantly spring into motion like cat, your in for a grappling, elbowing, head butting and rolling on the ground game. Good luck deploying pepper spray, when you already can't deploy your sidearm.
This is part of the reason I hate standing in lines.... and will gesture to let others go ahead of me, and then keep a more comfortable distance from them.
Based on the OP's self description, I doubt he's much up for a grappling match with a faster and stronger adversary, so OC debate aside, I don't think his situation is a good one for OC.
I tend to think about this in terms of personal space, which I happen to enjoy having more of, than less. And just because the government doesn't "profile" people, doesn't mean that I can't.... so if I can't keep outside of "smellin' distance" of some gang banger type.... I'm going to find another check out line, or continue my shopping or I'm just leaving my purchase on the shelf and walking out.
I'm curious if the store clerk or any of the other patrons were aware of what was going on. Shouting out "hey, stop that" or "get away from me" might have brought welcome assistance to you.... or may have dissuaded the BG from continuing.
The OP was caugth flat footed and unprepared... He didn't have his head in the game and was "shocked" that anyone would not be intimidated by his OC and automatically stand clear. Surprise! this young tough didn't bat an eyelash and was not at all intimidated in the least. So I'd say count your blessings and re-think everything, since the foundation of your personal defense strategy was just blatantly diregarded.
OBTW, if this just happened the other day, you may want to call the police. It's very possible, if not likely that the entire altercation is on video.
I am of the personal opinion people should not rely upon their handgun as their primary defense tool... whether OC or concealed. Mindset is king in my book... so depend on your wits. As already mentioned, situational awareness is a big part of that. A handgun is just a tool to expand your options, but the use of motion and speech can also be very effective tools. Who knows, maybe this BG was entertaining himself by picking on "a little old man who thinks he's some kind of cowboy" and would not have actually stolen or used your gun. A sassy attitude with a few "get the he** off of me" may have put him off.
Something I learned way back in the day when I was very much into martial arts, is that most of your "tools" and techniques (whether they be offensive, defensive, evasion or flight) require a minimum distance between you and the "problem", and you might not be able to use them if somebody gets "inside" on you. Once that happens your in a grappling & wrestling match.
So part of interpreting your surroundings should be keeping an eye on how close people come to you. And if a conflict erupts with a person who is 2' or less from you, unless you can instantly spring into motion like cat, your in for a grappling, elbowing, head butting and rolling on the ground game. Good luck deploying pepper spray, when you already can't deploy your sidearm.
This is part of the reason I hate standing in lines.... and will gesture to let others go ahead of me, and then keep a more comfortable distance from them.
Based on the OP's self description, I doubt he's much up for a grappling match with a faster and stronger adversary, so OC debate aside, I don't think his situation is a good one for OC.
I tend to think about this in terms of personal space, which I happen to enjoy having more of, than less. And just because the government doesn't "profile" people, doesn't mean that I can't.... so if I can't keep outside of "smellin' distance" of some gang banger type.... I'm going to find another check out line, or continue my shopping or I'm just leaving my purchase on the shelf and walking out.
I'm curious if the store clerk or any of the other patrons were aware of what was going on. Shouting out "hey, stop that" or "get away from me" might have brought welcome assistance to you.... or may have dissuaded the BG from continuing.
The OP was caugth flat footed and unprepared... He didn't have his head in the game and was "shocked" that anyone would not be intimidated by his OC and automatically stand clear. Surprise! this young tough didn't bat an eyelash and was not at all intimidated in the least. So I'd say count your blessings and re-think everything, since the foundation of your personal defense strategy was just blatantly diregarded.
OBTW, if this just happened the other day, you may want to call the police. It's very possible, if not likely that the entire altercation is on video.
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45_auto
Member
hacker15e said:
Are you going to try to draw the pistol when he lets go of it and is still within inches of you? Might as well just hand it to him.
Or are you going to wait until he's walking away and is far enough away that you can draw it safely? At that point, he's walking away from you and isn't a threat. Are you going to shoot when he doesn't stop leaving? If you believe that a jury will believe that you're in fear of your life or serious bodily injury at that point, good luck to you.
allaroundhunter
Member
To start with, two words: Retention. Training.
I recommend anyone who is going to carry (especially openly) to have some retention training.
I have had someone try to take a gun out of my holster once, and it was while out on my family's property. I was taking care of a horse, and the guy that we bought the horse from came up beside me and grabbed my gun and tried to jerk it out of the holster (Blackhawk Serpa). My first reaction was to immediately remove his hand from the gun while simultaneously pushing the gun into the holster to make sure it was still secure. In the same movement, I was able to push the man's arm across his body and use leverage to put him on the ground (using the inside of my wrist/fist into his neck stunned him well enough that he didn't put up any resistance). The next action was to draw and move backwards to create distance between the two of us.
It wasn't until I had drawn and moved away from the man that I recognized who it was. The funny thing is, he said the same thing that the guy that you dealt with said.
No one is "just playing" when they go for your gun. Since you carry it, you are also responsible for keeping it out of the hands of anyone else. Get some training, and get a cover garment.
Neither. You create distance between the two of you and draw. His next action could be to pull a knife and try to gain control of your firearm that way.
I don't want to be too critical to the OP, but to me it is irresponsible to Open Carry without any weapon retention training.
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"I'm just playin dog."
Sure he was, at least when he couldn't figure out how to remove the gun from the holster. Who the hell just is "just playin" when a firearm is involved?
You were very lucky. IMO, a very fine example of not in the right mindset and why one should take the advantage of CC, when in society.
Sure he was, at least when he couldn't figure out how to remove the gun from the holster. Who the hell just is "just playin" when a firearm is involved?
You were very lucky. IMO, a very fine example of not in the right mindset and why one should take the advantage of CC, when in society.
.Next time just try stomping on the guys foot or breaking a shin bone , wear a boot, with metal tip, also spitting right in the guys face, was an old trick that may sound gross, but works.I almost never open carried and I was a body builder,if alone it is just not too smart to do. If there were I was making a deposit, I would carry under a jacket or long shirt over it, 'opened", or 2 or more of us were out and about, I would open carry, but you are just drawing undue attention especially when alone, "someone will test you".
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
Welcome to THR Karen!
Fotno
Member
Gamestalker - While I'm not elderly (I'm 47), I have Multiple Sclerosis so I know what it is to be at a physical disadvantage.
I carry concealed because I feel safer not advertising that I have one. I am very careful about where I am/go, and if I feel the least bit uncomfortable I leave if possible. In public areas I try to sit with my back to a wall, watching the entrance if possible, and I try to avoid situations where strangers can stand behind me.
When I cannot avoid crowds of people I don't know, I try to categorize those around me by the level of threat they present; and if my radar goes off, I get myself out of that crowd as soon as possible. I don't have the luxury of assuming I'll win in a fight, so avoiding the possibility of confrontation is always my best defense option.
In short, I need every advantage I can get. I need distance and time, because I don't see me winning any wrestling matches at this point in my life. The sooner I can identify a threat and react, the better.
I carry concealed because I feel safer not advertising that I have one. I am very careful about where I am/go, and if I feel the least bit uncomfortable I leave if possible. In public areas I try to sit with my back to a wall, watching the entrance if possible, and I try to avoid situations where strangers can stand behind me.
When I cannot avoid crowds of people I don't know, I try to categorize those around me by the level of threat they present; and if my radar goes off, I get myself out of that crowd as soon as possible. I don't have the luxury of assuming I'll win in a fight, so avoiding the possibility of confrontation is always my best defense option.
In short, I need every advantage I can get. I need distance and time, because I don't see me winning any wrestling matches at this point in my life. The sooner I can identify a threat and react, the better.
OptimusPrime
Member
GS, I'm very glad the situation ended peacefully, that is very good.
However, and only because you asked for respectfully submitted constructive criticism, I think you may need to re-evaluate your situation and possibilities.
If you've been put into some situations as you say, you may indeed have an "easy victim" aura on your person.
Criminals are like water, they ALWAYS and ONLY choose the path of least resistance so if they are finding you with regularity, then you are a downhill flow my friend.
But, all is not lost: I would recommend that you find a different way to get an advantage.
As others have mentioned here, perhaps a cool-looking and natty cane would fit your needs better, and would put a stout weapon right into your hands.
You can train on some simple SD methods that would keep you protected and give you the stand-off distance necessary to retrieve your (now concealed) weapon.
As others have mentioned, it is ALL ABOUT ADVANTAGE.
They are surprising you into a shocked state, and taking advantage of you.
So turn the tables; conceal, get a surprisingly effective stand-off defensive weapon, and maybe start wearing a whistle around your neck as a helpful last resort. Even if you are shocked into 3 seconds of "...what the heck...??..." you will always be able to exhale into a whistle and attract attention, and criminals hate noise and attention.
Stay safe friend, and good luck.
However, and only because you asked for respectfully submitted constructive criticism, I think you may need to re-evaluate your situation and possibilities.
If you've been put into some situations as you say, you may indeed have an "easy victim" aura on your person.
Criminals are like water, they ALWAYS and ONLY choose the path of least resistance so if they are finding you with regularity, then you are a downhill flow my friend.
But, all is not lost: I would recommend that you find a different way to get an advantage.
As others have mentioned here, perhaps a cool-looking and natty cane would fit your needs better, and would put a stout weapon right into your hands.
You can train on some simple SD methods that would keep you protected and give you the stand-off distance necessary to retrieve your (now concealed) weapon.
As others have mentioned, it is ALL ABOUT ADVANTAGE.
They are surprising you into a shocked state, and taking advantage of you.
So turn the tables; conceal, get a surprisingly effective stand-off defensive weapon, and maybe start wearing a whistle around your neck as a helpful last resort. Even if you are shocked into 3 seconds of "...what the heck...??..." you will always be able to exhale into a whistle and attract attention, and criminals hate noise and attention.
Stay safe friend, and good luck.
Infidel4life11
Member
IMO coming from my background and experiences (Military LE). I use and train a lot on unarmed self defence.
If he grabbed my weapon while facing me I would of hit him multiple times, drawn my weapon and reassess (is he is still a threat?) Now if he grabbed it from the back, retention technique, turn and shoot him twice from the close and ready.
That is the way I'm trained. Would it of have happened like that? Probably not because I wouldn't have been standing near your attacker and I don't open carry.
I'm glad you are OK and nothing bad happened.
If he grabbed my weapon while facing me I would of hit him multiple times, drawn my weapon and reassess (is he is still a threat?) Now if he grabbed it from the back, retention technique, turn and shoot him twice from the close and ready.
That is the way I'm trained. Would it of have happened like that? Probably not because I wouldn't have been standing near your attacker and I don't open carry.
I'm glad you are OK and nothing bad happened.
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