FBI looking at 9x19mm sidearms

[george burns]

Maybe it's changed since I had contact with them, but back then they were notorious for wasting money prosecuting cases that had little to no real value just for the same of putting white collar criminals in jail. I had many attorneys tell me that the would over spend on ridiculous cases just for the sake of winning. And a year or two later the guy would get out anyway, while the taxpayer spent millions on court costs.
Especially loansharking and stock manipulation cases.
It's rare that they are in the trenches doing other than intelligence or legal work, I don't know why they can't find a gun they like from what's already out there.
But after 911 most of them went to the war on terror instead of the organized crime task force, so anything's possible.

 

[Girodin]

The FBI is famous for overspending on every aspect of their budget "maybe because they really don't have one". They will spend millions to convict someone of a crime was minor, just to make a point, and keep their conviction rate up around 98%

I think you may be confused about the roles of the FBI and the US attorneys office.

 

[PabloJ]

Frankly I do not care what they use or want and this is another fine example of fleecing of American taxpayer. There is nothing wrong with .40S&W. I shoot 1100fps 180gr 10x25 loads out of G20s w/o issues.

 

[X-Rap]

We private citizens can play the which caliber is best game till we're blue in the face and it doesn't cost our neighbor a dime, some guy decide a whole department or agency needs the latest wondergun and we all get fleeced for the change.
We have now come full circle with regards to semi auto calibers if the FBI does indeed change to the 9mm because there will be an exodus to have what the premier LE agency in the country has.

 

[JohnBiltz]

There are around 35,000 members of the FBI well over 15,000 of them are women. I'd guess most of the women are already carrying 9mm. There are over 13,000 special agents, which is what most people think of as the FBI, of them there are over 2,000 women. In the history of the FBI 36 members have been killed in what it called adversarial situations. The first was in 1925. Another 21 have been killed in non adversarial situations but in the line of duty. I'm guessing car accidents probably lead that list. My memory is telling me they have shot and killed about 150 people in their history, I admit my memory is not that reliable. But what the stats tells me is that what gun they carry may not be all that important. For the most part the FBI is not dealing with violence all that much. NYPD is about the same size and seem to get along alright with a Glock 19 and Gold Dots and are in a lot more shootings than the FBI.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Federal law enforcement.....

A few factors;
The US Border Patrol is the largest federal LE agency. They also have the highest # of "member of service" lethal force events every FY.
Interestingly, the LE or "sworn"(armed) NPS park rangers, www.doi.gov www.nps.gov , have the most violent crimes/assaults every FY.
You wouldn't think being a national park ranger would be so dangerous or risky but it is.
As noted, across the board, most federal LE officers(FBI included) are injured or killed by motor accidents. The same is true for other sworn US law enforcement too.

Rusty

 

[SilentScream]

I have a feeling this is a case of "our agents can barely shoot their weapons straight enough to save their lives, we must need a new weapon" I have found almost as a rule rank & file LE are mediocre shots at best. Instead of proper training they'll blow who knows how much coin on a new weapon.

 

[BSA1]

45_auto,

Actually I do own a 1911 that is the same level of quality as a Wilson Combat.

I don't know what you referring too when you say "Korth".

 

[David E]

The Model 13 was loaded with .38 special 158 grain LSWCHP+P ammo. .357 was apparently available if the "Agent in charge" deemed it necessary for a given situation.

But as a rule, they only used .38's in their magnums

 

[bc1023]

My SIG is over twice the quality and worksmanship of a Glock at less than double the price. Some things are just worth spending more money on...like a firearm that I may need someday to my life.

If its an Exeter Sig, I'd take the Glock even if they were the same price.

I love my West German models, but Sig can keep the new stuff.

 

[MICHAEL T]

They need to buy their own pistols and stop wasting our money going from 9mm to 10mm to 40 and now back tracking .

A 25 auto using ball meets their 12" min With 16" in jell let them carry 25 autos.

 

[RustyShackelford]

FBI sidearms.....

I too, heard the same thing about FBI sidearms in the 1980s/1990s. Special agents would get S&W model 13s, 19/66s, or model 65s(stainless K frame .357magnum). They'd use .38spl +Ps on duty but also had .357magnum 158gr JHPs for any "special needs" or when approved by the field office SAC/ASAC.

Writer & retired FBI profiler; John Douglas wrote that he packed a 2.5" model 19 .357magnum nearly everyday for about 18.5 years. He wore the .357 snub until he retired in the mid 1990s. He never had a lethal force incident on duty either.

 

[boricua9mm]

It's precisely because of the FBI that modern bonded JHPs of all the popular service calibers are currently performing about the same. They set the parameters for ballistics testing, and the ammo manufacturers (and technology) have stepped up to level the playing field.

I guess I'm not old enough to be a 9mm hater. By the time I started carrying a handgun for personal protection, there was already many excellent options for 9mm loadings to fulfill that role. The Winchester Silvertip days are long gone.

I say "why not go to the 9mm?" They are less snappy (recoil-wise) across the board, the resultant learning curve is shorter, and they offer more capacity (a welcomed attribute for most folks). In my personal experience, I've also noticed that 9mm has been less susceptible to bullet setback and its inherent dangers. I've seen .40s display setback in as few as 3 chamberings, whereas the 9mms seem to allow for many more before setback is detected. That said, the way they burn through ammo, I doubt this is a concern of theirs, but it is an issue for me.

As for the pistol, I could care less who gets the contract. These are scary times to be buying pistols in bulk. S&W has bobbled with several LE agencies, and Glock has as well. I think HK and Walther have maintained excellent quality control, but they are often passed by. I personally believe than panic-fueled demand has compromised quality assurance for a lot of manufacturers, but that's another thread altogether.

 

[RustyShackelford]

9x19mm....

I've shot, packed, concealed, owned, etc several handgun calibers in different formats(mostly DA only).
I owned 2 9x19mm pistols in the recent past, a PX4 Storm full size(C) & a Smith and Wesson M&P full size(with safety).
I would feel safe with either semi auto pistol on duty or off.
As noted, JHPs & defense loads have improved greatly since 1986. A few large PDs like Texas DPS, Los Angeles CA Sheriffs, New Mexico State Police are moving to the 9x19mm. Is it because they are unsafe? No.
I own a Glock 21 gen 04 .45acp that I plan to carry on security details. Later on I might get a M&P .40S&W full size with 9mm conversion barrel or a Glock 23 with a after market 9x19mm barrel. To use a 9mm is fine but you need a well engineered round for it.

 

[RussellC]

Funny, I've never once considered carrying one of my sigs over my glocks. And even my old West German guns (that have much better "workmanship" than much of what has come out of Exter in recent years. In fairness glock quality hit a pretty serious bump in the rode too.) really wont do anything on a practical level that my glocks wont. The sigs do have shorter service lives though. I also think it would be pretty damn hard to argue that any of the sigs are better built than various HKs. The fact is any number of guns are up to the task if the shooter is. According to guys like LAV and Ken Hackathorn, the G19 is pretty popular among elite SOF guys. I dare say that 1) they could have a sig if they wanted one and 2) they are much much much much more likely to fire a shot in anger than you are. I'm not saying you are wrong to choose the sig, but rather pointing out that it is far from given that the sig is per se a better choice or worth the extra money vis-a-vis various other options.

It is interesting to actually talk to guys who have experience training with various large agencies and hear their input on what guns tend to work well at the agency level. Remember the considerations of an agency that will be equipping lots of people with varying levels of skill and desire to hone their skills is different from individuals selecting guns they like and believe suit them. It is also interesting to get input from those same people who get to see a relatively large sample size of various models.

I think the VP9 is likely to prove a better out of the box striker fired gun than a Glock (The PPQ is too IMHO). That said, lots of very very serious users who can aquire whatever it is they like choose glocks. The fact is that competent shooters can do very good work with any number of modern pistols.

That said there would be a lot of advantage to the FBI to simply trading G22s at the end of their service life out for G17s. Even though there are guns I might personally prefer to the G17, if I were the one making the decision that is route I would go. The LEO world seems to have come full circle on their adoption of 40 S&W and there has been a fair amount of movement back to 9x19. The FBI going back would likely accelerate that trend significantly.

As an aside, the HRT guys are going to get and use what they want their wants and needs are really of little import to arming the rest of the bureau. Sort of like comparing various SOF guys to the broader military force they come from. Their wants, needs, and concerns are typically very different.

Ditto. How much workmanship do you want to pay for? Once something NEVER fails you, I stick with it. Perfection!

Russellc

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^

The most common college degree in the FBI is Accounting.

Guns? .... Distraction from looking at the money trail. Most agents would do fine with a Baby Browning in .25 ACP.

And you should always go where the money is (Said the original Willie Sutton)


Willie

.

 

[jmr40]

another fine example of fleecing of American taxpayer.

Probably not.

When Glock, or any gunmaker for that matter gets a large contract they also allow for trade value on the old guns, especially if staying with the same brand. I wouldn't be surprised to see the FBI paying very little, maybe nothing to make the swap. Often LE personel get the option to purchase their old gun and the rest will go back to Glock who will refurb and sell them at a nice profit. Lots of guys would pay a small premium to own a former FBI issue gun. It is a win-win for both Glock and the taxpayer.

Not only that, but by staying with such a similar gun new holsters and other gear will not have to be purchased and don't forget the millions of dollars that will not have to be spent retraining each agent with a new design.

Any small costs involved in making the change will be made up for within a year or 3 with savings on 9mm ammo costs vs 40.

If this happens, and the FBI stays with Glock in 9mm it will be one of the few times when tax money will be spent wisely.

 

[HRnightmare]

modern 9mms are absolutely effective. Its cheaper than .40 and easier to acquire...not a bad move!

 

[RustyShackelford]

Accounting?......

Is there a source for this claim? I never heard that more FBI special agents had accounting degrees than any other major.
Id also think the www.FLEOA.org would take issue with FBI agents only using Baby Brownings in .25acp .

To my knowledge, the DoJ/FBI selects many applicants from the US armed forces. They hire retired officers or field grade level troops who can run field offices or handle overseas duty.

Doctors(MDs), Nurses(RNs), JD holders & other specialists get selected not just CPAs.

 

[jbrown50]

That is a detailed list of what the FBI uses/used.

Actually, I know three Agents who carry the Glock 27. A fourth one was a swat team member and carried it as a backup until he resigned so that list is close but not a complete.

 

[SilentScream]

Not only that, but by staying with such a similar gun new holsters and other gear will not have to be purchased and don't forget the millions of dollars that will not have to be spent retraining each agent with a new design.

Except standard protocol for almost all if not all LE agencies require a full re-qualification course on any new pistol being issued, whether or not it's the same manufacturer, or same type of action/functionality.

 

[twofifty]

Finding a hardware 'solution' seems to be a common fix to proficiency & training problems. Both the civilian side and the LE/MIL side do it.

 

[Charlie Horse]

Wow. A lot of interesting and false ideas about the FBI in this one. I've worked alongside of them before I'll see how much of this I can shed some light on.

1. I've never seen a female agent with a 9mm after the switch to .40s. There was one I knew who carried a J frame as a backup, but it was privately owned and vetted by the agency.

2. They don't pay civilian prices for ammo. I know I'll break someone's heart, but the State of Alabama pays $292.00 for 1000 .40 HSTs. (And they pay the shipping.)
http://www.purchasing.alabama.gov/contracts/t208.txt
I know we have much fewer rounds in the contract than they do. (The state bid encompasses almost every service cartridge imaginable, and some that aren't.)

3. Federal agencies don't select calibers based on what DOD, the Nation Guard, Army Reserve or any other military service chooses. Same as the state agencies here, they create a set of parameters and then select something to fill them.

4. I can't speak definitively about the FBI on this one, but if one of ours doesn't qualify, they go into remedial training until they do. There is nothing short of more time on the range, with an instructor that fixes that problem. I have never heard an agency say that a new pistol or gizmo will fix that, not even one of our instructors that was FBI certified.

This is not 25 years ago when the 9mm was about to be replaced with the .40 for LE use. I carry a .40 glock on and off duty. I like it, and my G17 that I did carry sits in the safe. (I never found the .40 to be "snappy," but that's just me I guess.) Modern 9mm will work just fine if its what they settle on. What'll be really interesting is to see how many agencies follow suit if the FBI does change.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Less not more......

In many areas of the US(CONUS), sworn LE agencies are reducing the training standards or firearm quals.
The Florida Highway Patrol(which is way under-strength & under budget) started to allow troopers & investigators to use PODA rifles(7.62mm/5.56mm) on duty. PODA meaning private owner/dept approved.
The NYPD now only has one pistol re-qual per FY & one "familiarization" with low light/night time shooting per year.
Some cops are required to shoot 3/4 times per FY & get a score of 80-85% min.

The FBI is no exception. They have a budget & limited resources to train all the sworn personnel. The FBI also has a small police force too.
They patrol the larger field offices & FBI property; Quantico VA.

 

[Big Shrek]

Given the way most Local Law feels about the Feds, hopping on board their bandwagon may not be likely...

What's the 2 required items issued when one joins the FBI?
A bad suit and a broomstick shoved up your beep-beep...

What's the first item issued to a CIA field agent??
An eye-poppingly bad Hawaiian shirt

The Treasury Department is planning to disband the BATF and replace it with the Post Office.
The reason given is that postal employees shoot better.

Should I go on??