FBI; Shot placement is everything in a gunfight

[BSA1]

There has an been an ongoing debate about shot placement vs. caliber on THR. I ran across this report by the FBI that is interesting for several reasons. Please pay particular attention to the differences by the Medical Examiner and the FBI investigation.

WARNING; THE LINK CONTAINS GRAPHIC PICTURES!

On 11/29/2006 3 Officers on a Pennsylvania police department officers were involved in a shooting. An ambush was set up for the officers prior to their arrival, they took fire while still in their cruisers. One officer was hit in the forearm, another received wounds to his forehead from a ricochet, another was injured (NFI). The suspect, 18 year old Male, was armed with a .45 handgun. The officers were armed with Glock 22's and SPEER 180 gr. Gold Dot Hollow Points.

Officers fired on the subject and hit him in the left arm, completely shattering the bone. He was also hit five times in the chest and abdomen. All rounds penetrated less than 1". All of the rounds expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration.

According to the Medical Examiner, none of the rounds caused any life threatening injuries. The subject also received one round into the front of his throat, it penetrated less than 1" as well. The Medical Examiner stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition (still had rifling marks on them).

The subject was wearing a down jacket with a t-shirt underneath it at the time of the incident. He was finally taken down after receiving rounds from an M-4 .223, with Hornady Tap 55 gr ballistic tip rounds and Hornady Tap 72 gr. Hollow Points.

The subject had a trace amount of marijuana in his system.

Range between subject and officers: 20 feet.

Subject received approximately sixteen .223 rounds, thirteen of these rounds went completely through. One round struck his hip and completely shattered it. Another .223 round struck his aorta and another pierced and collapsed his lung. Both of these rounds lodged themselves inside the subject. The Medical Examiner stated that the .223 rounds caused massive internal damage.

Facts;
• Six .40 S&W rounds, five which expanded, were recovered on autopsy.
• It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less penetration in a human body.
• After all .223 rounds had been fired, assailant was hit with 180 gr. Gold Dot in right arm above the elbow.
• Officers had to “fight” assailant in order to get him handcuffed.

BRF Testing of Officer’s Ammunition on 12/15/06;

• Consistent with all bare gelatin ammunition data CD.
• Results of Speer 180 gr. Gold Dot satisfy FBI standards for terminal and barrier testing done previously for performance.
• Results of Hornady 55gr. and 75 gr. TAP do not satisfy FBI standards for terminal performance.

Lessons Learned:

Determined individuals can sustain many gunshot wounds in areas that produce great pain and continue to fight a long time.

Shot placement is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively.

http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf

 

[CWL]

This old news caused a firestorm within LE circles as policemen and entire agencies were ready to toss the .40 SW as a carry caliber.

The reality of it is that many LEOs don't bother to train with their service firearms beyond needed qualifications. I would guess that the ones who frequent here actually do.

If you are worried about .40 SW, you should understand that NO pistol caliber is an efficient manstopper. Be aware that 80% of people survive pistol wounds. If you practice for SD/HD, then prepared to shoot accurately and as many times as necessary to stop an assault. Choose whatever caliber and brand you want, it doesn't matter because there are no "magic bullets" out there and all bullets will perform about the same, which is barely.

 

[joshk1025]

How is the throat bad shot placement? It is a bit above center mass yes but it is one of the places I would expect a bullet to do its job.

 

[gunnutery]

Thanks for the link BSA.

The reality of it is that many LEOs don't bother to train with their service firearms beyond needed qualifications. I would guess that the ones who frequent here actually do.

I can vouch for that statement. I put more rounds down range per year than my whole department combined. It's a small sized dept, but still...

I've also tried to organize some dry-run active shooter training with the other night guys in the school, got the key and everything. The only person that showed was a state trooper who I'd told an hour before hand. Every one else was either "too busy" or "forgot." However, do a spontaneous K9 training and everybody flocks to it. I don't get it.

 

[docsleepy]

Darn good down jacket!
I better get me one of those things.

 

[silicosys4]

Dang.
I would have expected the round to the throat to penetrate better than an inch!
Something doesn't seem right about the performance of those .40 rounds though...
The report seems to contradict itself. It states that all .40 rounds expanded fully even with such shallow penetration...but then listed under "facts"....it is impossible for .40 rounds to expand fully with 1" or less penetration into the human body....
So does the data contradict the facts? Or am I misreading the report?

 

[Al Thompson]

BSA posted the long (right) answer, folks feel free to read it. Just be aware that the original (erroneous) examination was/is included.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I'm not the FBI, but ...

There are IMHO two Ps that determine projectile performance in a living target ... the first is indeed Placement. Placement is determined by where we can make a bullet land on the surface of the target, using available visible landmarks to establish point of aim.

The second, equally important, is Penetration. Penetration determines where the bullet goes and what vital structures it is likely to intersect on its path.

Placement without Penetration won't cut it - neither will Penetration without Placement. We must remember that while we mostly practice on stationary two-dimensional targets ... the human adversary is an often mobile, and always three-dimensional, target.

I recall the FBI doing a nutroll after the Miami shootout (1986) over penetration (or perceived lack of it) which resulted in the adoption of a whole new caliber by the agency ... what a difference twenty years makes (?).

 

[xXxplosive]

Right you are Fred.........it's why I practice....like Wyatt said "Accuracy is everything" along with my .45acp hardball ....Penetration.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I
Placement without Penetration won't cut it - neither will Penetration without Placement. We must remember that while we mostly practice on stationary two-dimensional targets ... the human adversary is an often mobile, and always three-dimensional, target..

And good bullet design helps some to.

Deaf

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Officers fired on the subject and hit him in the left arm, completely shattering the bone. He was also hit five times in the chest and abdomen. All rounds penetrated less than 1". All of the rounds expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration.

According to the Medical Examiner, none of the rounds caused any life threatening injuries. The subject also received one round into the front of his throat, it penetrated less than 1" as well. The Medical Examiner stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition (still had rifling marks on them).

The less than 1" penetration is all WRONG. For example, there is a large bullet wound below the BG's right nipple. There is no bullet on the x-ray anywhere near the right nipple.

Note that the claim is made that ALL rounds expanded fully, but you can see on the x-ray that the round in the neck didn't expand at all.

This is part of the erroneous information that AT mentioned above.

The pics are cool, but the erroneous claims made should be ignored.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

As with hunting accuracy is number one. But I call bull hockey on the report commentary that the penetrated only an Inch. That violates the principles of physics.

 

[ugaarguy]

The less than 1" penetration is all WRONG.

But I call bull hockey on the report commentary that the penetrated only an Inch. That violates the principles of physics.

Y'all are focusing on the erroneous reporting by the PD/ME that the FBI quotes, then later explains is erroneous. Read the whole thing carefully. BSA1 even states in the opening paragraph:

Please pay particular attention to the differences by the Medical Examiner and the FBI investigation.

 

[j1]

BSA1 I would like to thank you very much for the link cause without actually reading it I do not think that I could have believed it and still do not understand it. Underpowered ammo?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Discussed here....
2011 http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=582906&highlight=ntoa
2008 http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=375650&highlight=ntoa

...for further reference

 

[JDoe]

Sometimes bullets don't work.

 

[Panzerschwein]

This is a good argument for why the 10mm should have been adopted in the first place.

There are excellent 10mm loads out there such as Underwood's 135 grain Gold Dot that produce over 800 ft-lbs of muzzle energy from a Glock 20 that holds 15 rounds. Recoil supposedly isn't too bad, the big heavy G20 slide helps soak it up.

 

[Fred Fuller]

People are always looking for magic.

Magic calibers.

Magic bullet construction (EXPLODING PANTS!!!!*)

And so on.

The dreary reality is that a bullet in the right place which penetrates enough to sufficiently disrupt a vital structure will kill anything that walks the planet. There's no magic involved.

* http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-337385.html

 

[shyflyguy]

"No, what you have are bullets, and the hope that when your guns are empty I'm no longer be standing..."

Seems applicable. Think of how many other LEO's have encountered a need to take down drug enhanced evil-doers. I'm not saying the .40 is underpowered, but remember it was originally designed as a low velocity 10mm round which was shrunk to eliminate empty case space and fit into medium frame existing 9mm handguns. Draw your own conclusions, but you'll not find one in my holster, safe, or home.

 

[gym]

Would a shotgun not have helped here?

 

[mgkdrgn]

as it has been said ....

"Fast is fine, but accuracy is final."

 

[Warp]

Would a shotgun not have helped here?

The 5.56 seemed to do the trick.

 

[PedalBiker]

If you are worried about .40 SW, you should understand that NO pistol caliber is an efficient manstopper. Be aware that 80% of people survive pistol wounds

Not in police shootings near where I live. Some survive, but it's a minority. They're seldom bullet riddled like the example given above either.

Mostly, here, if the police shoot you it's fatal. We also have hardly any police officers shot and most of them do survive.

Perhaps there is a correlation, well trained police hit what they shoot at, don't need to shoot as many bullets and get better results. Hmmm.....

This does not include Denver or Aurora, those cities are physically located in Colorado, but their police act more like they're from Chicago with similar results (like shooting old guys armed with Diet Pepsi).

 

[SwissArmyDad]

The 5.56 seemed to do the trick.

16 rounds of .223 while realistic, seems highly "in-effective" if you ask me. Imagine if there were more than one of these goblins that they had to put down?

Assuming each responding officer has 4-5 20 round mags or a 3-4 30rounders, each officer would basically have to empty his mag, or 1/2 his mag respectively for each perp?

Regardless, this never fails to be an interesting subject for those who take the responsibility of keeping a weapon for defense of self and family, and/or the public in the case of CCW'rs and LEO's.

 

[Warp]

16 rounds of .223 while realistic, seems highly "in-effective" if you ask me. Imagine if there were more than one of these goblins that they had to put down?

Assuming each responding officer has 4-5 20 round mags or a 3-4 30rounders, each officer would basically have to empty his mag, or 1/2 his mag respectively for each perp?

Regardless, this never fails to be an interesting subject for those who take the responsibility of keeping a weapon for defense of self and family, and/or the public in the case of CCW'rs and LEO's.

This was obviously an exceptional case.

There are also exceptional cases where shotguns failed even worse than in this case (guy still alive, even after taking buckshot and slug).

Most people, myself included, would rather have a carbine in 5.56 than a shotgun. Though either is obviously a big step up over a pistol.