Feedback On Rifle Design

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jmar

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A while ago I made a thread here called "The Perfect Sniper Rifle". That wasn't just for giggles. With your feedback I designed this. Have a look over it and let me know if you see anything that should be changed. And I'm open to any other feedback or advice. This isn't my only design, I have many more standard precision and anti-material rifles in the works. If enough people like it I will build a prototype for review and to show to investors to hopefully produce them one day. Thanks!

 
So, it looks like an AR15 inspired bolt action with directly analogous takedown and caliber conversions resulting from a separate upper and lower. Is that right?

Interesting.

The stock looks a bit lacking. It should come with the buffer tube adapter installed, offer an adjustable length of pull, have a properly adjustable cheekpiece, and maybe a length of rail for a monopod. Consider the stock on the Ruger Precision Rifle, or on the other various chassis rifles. I think it would be more important to have a fancy adjustable stock than a simple lightweight one.
 
Great that you are pursuing this. Just keep in mind that when you ask for feedback, in the nature of things, it will generally be critical. Not mean spirited. But folks will generally look at it as a problem to solve. So, don't be discouraged!
 
Folks have been doing this for decades. Factory options are out there now, in fact. So you're a bit late to the party.

Plenty of chassis' out there which use AR furniture, and personally, I would be concerned with yours, as it doesn't have a shrouded bolt, but DOES have a closed bolt tunnel. What happens when that fills with mud on the battlefield? That's why the RPR uses an AR buffer tube and a full bolt shroud.

The design needs work, but it's not a bad idea, just not a new idea. You're about 30yrs too late to the party to be able to capitalize on this design type.
 
No bipod. Or visible bipod mount. A place on the butt stock to attach dope sheets would be nice. A butt stock monopod with a easy to reach elevation wheel.
A gas operated auto loading rifle with a adjustable gas block would make left handed shooters happier.
 
Make it a straight pull action. Put the bolt handle on the left side for faster operation. Maybe use a spring to assist closing.

I don't want any type of metallic handguard on any of my rifles
 
When I think of "sniper", I don't picture anything other than suppressed and scoped. Hang a can on the end, skip the extended rail, and yes, provide an adjustable stock with elevated cheek rest for optics.

More critical design factors have been pointed out above which make these suggestions trivial by comparison however and I tend to agree there would be no market for what you currently have rendered.
 
Here's an idea; make it semi-automatic.....it's in an AR compatible caliber anyway, so not a true Sniper rifle. Why handicap a Designated Marksman by giving them a bolt? And a short barreled one at that?

Oh wait, there already is such a rifle; SR-25. Even better,

URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mosinfan/media/NemoArms_Watchman-2_zpspiae8wcv.jpg.html]
NemoArms_Watchman-2_zpspiae8wcv.jpg
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Nemo Watchman. 300 Win Mag.

And yeah, your idea's been done; RPR and BA10 Not to mention Safety Harbor and all the other '.50BMG on an AR' guns.

Not a bad idea, but it's been done.You might do well making the unique parts that Lego with AR parts to build it
 
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For magazines go with an ai/aw compatible design or aics magazines. They allow for longer length cartridges than the sr25 mags and will get more support from the PRS type shooters that are helping drive the industry

A 20rd magazine doesnt necessarily make a precision bolt gun more appealing imo

A folding ar15 compatible stock
 
I would find a way to tie the handguard into the upper receiver itself, as opposed to hanging it on the barrel nut. I would just go ahead and make it monolithic myself, that way you can mount optics out a bit further. Even with cantilever scope mounts it can be difficult to get the proper eye relief, especially on long scopes with FFP reticles. The erector assembly only allows you to shove the scope so far forward in the rings. To me, a really attractive feature on a bolt action would be a super solid monolithic top rail with zero flex even when loading the bipod.

Looks really cool, though. I like the idea of just being able to buy an upper and turning my AR into a long range precision rifle. At the same time, though, it would only be practical for AR10 lowers due to the magwell limitations of an AR15.

Another thing you'll want to work out is the play between the upper and lower. That will be easy enough, but you'll have to lock that down super tight, probably to the point where you'll need tools to separate them. Not a huge deal, though, at least it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me.

ETA: To make the bolt action worth it, it's gotta be able to shoot the flees off a dog. Unless it's well under MOA then it would have no advantage over semi auto AR10s. I would look into a four lug bolt design. There's a company in England right now supposedly getting insane results from them. If what they're posting is true then it would be worth pursuing.

ETA Again: I can think of one use for a bolt action upper on an AR15 lower, and that would be for the use of subsonic ammunition. I could see special operations having an application for something like that. If the upper was small and light enough to fit in a backpack then it could be used for taking out sentries. Sort of a modern take on the de lisle carbine.

With that said, lots of such weapons have been designed over the last century, and very few of them have actually been made. Probably very few of them have ever been used in an actual mission. And getting gov. contracts is very difficult, even if what you have is something they need. With that said, lots of people would buy such a creature just for the fun of it.

As far as I know, AAC still makes their bolt action 300 BLK SBR. I think it would appeal to people to have something like that for their AR15. But I have to emphasize small and light. For something like that I would even incorporate a quick detach barrel so it can break down even smaller. I'm thinking a 7'' barrel for 300 BLK.

I also wouldn't mind having the same configuration in 5.56 for use with subsonic heavy pills. They would have a really sweet BC and probably be no louder than a .22 LR with a nice suppressor on it. That's where a bolt action would really shine because the bolt slamming on an AR15 would likely be louder than the shot itself.

Honestly, that's where your biggest sales would probably be. I'm just not sure how many people want a precision upper to put on their AR10, but the covert little fit in your cargo pocket upper has a definite cool factor to it. And the MSRP on something like that would probably be doable for most people. Not to mention it would really appeal to people who already had registered AR15 lowers, as they could essentially have a second gun without going in for another stamp as they would if they bought the AAC bolt action.
 
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Great feedback and criticism guys, I really appreciate it! Keep it coming please.

There's no doubt it looks like a RPR, but the RPR is based on the AR-10/15. As is mine, so that's kind of a given. However the RPR won't have many things that I want on my design such as:
The ability to change the caliber in the field. The RPR requires a vice and specialized tools. My gun will have a quick change systems such as those found on $5,000+ military orientated rifles where the barrel can be swapped in minutes with hand tools.
The RPR is only available in a few calibers, my gun will have 10+ in short and long action, including magnum rounds which the RPR doesn't have.
The RPR comes off as an AR style rifle that can use AR parts, but in reality some parts don't mesh with it well.
No offense to Ruger they made a great rifle, but the RPR is just a gun in the shape of a AR, this is pretty much an AR. So it will have much more options, i don't think the AR market is going anywhere for a long time, so why not embrace it and give people a rifle they can use that box of old AR parts on.


Why a bolt action design and not a semiauto traditional gas operation?
Better accuracy and stronger lockup.
A semi auto system simply wouldn't work for a modular quick change caliber system. You'd have to worry about the cartridge not having enough power to cycle the gun, or worry that there's to much power and the gun cycles to fast causing jams and damage to the rifle. Plus subsonic ammunition is almost always likely to cause problems paired with the increased sound of having a gas porting system makes the bolt action design far superior in this application.


Don't get it wrong, the gun shown is not a DMR rifle at all, this is designed for snipers purely. The one in the image configured is simply an example of the many variations it can be in. If i showed a .300 Win Mag with a 28" barrel I think there would be less confusion of the role of this design. The one shown is more configured for 50-300m engagements in close urban settings. The barrel length allows it to be concealed in a backpack and easy to maneuvered in doors.


Am I late to the party? Yes maybe, however in my research I didn't find a single bolt action AR-15 style rifle. Well there were ones in .50 BMG but I think that's a bit ludicrous and does not encroach on the market I'm aiming for at all. And although business wise it makes sense to build these as uppers that drop into an AR lower, I actually envisioned them as a more one piece receiver, caliber would be changed through the barrel nut not by replacing the upper. There's a reason for this, simply AR's have to much extra stuff not needed on a bolt action, plus if it's a one piece design the rigidity and vibration harmonics will be incredible.


Many would think an AR-15 style receiver bolt action would be less accurate and more complicated then a traditional hunting style gun such as the Remington 700. That couldn't be further from the truth, almost all precision rifles now days are moving on from the traditional design to a once piece chassis. This is because it removes all variables and essentially makes the firearm a 1 piece design rather than a 2 piece design. With traditional receivers that are bolted to a stock, things like flex and bedding and tension are a huge issue, there has been testing done that shows even having the screws 5 in/lbs to loose or tight can double group sizes. This adds up to a gun that is always changing zero and group size. The first use of a moncore design in a bolt action I can think of is the AI L96, It had its stock essentially welded to the barreled action giving it great accuracy. That is why I think my rifle design offers more than just throwing a Remington 700 in a aluminum chassis.


Now it's not all smooth sailing, I'm having a very hard time designing a sturdy smooth compact bolt, when designing a gun you really can only pick one of those 3. The issue with a small bolt is that there's a big crevice behind it where a bunch of mud can get and jam the action. Guns like the RPR and MRAD do away with that issue by making the bolt unnecessarily long to fill that area. The 2nd issue is the magazines. I originally said it will take AI and AR mags but I might have to retract that statement. The magazines need to be somehow fully adjustable to be able to feed any cartridge on the spectrum, I'm either thinking of making removable inserts in the magazines for different calibers, or making the inside dimensions of the magazine adjustable. My goal is to have this gun be able to be swapped to a different cartridge in less than 5 mins with just an allen key.


I know i am not innovating much at all, and that my rifle isn't the best at anything, but i just want it to be an extremely durable, precise, jack of all trades. Kind of like a smaller way more affordable Remington MSR.


I'm going to make a V2 rendering after I get a bit more feedback, this particular one was made in just a few hours and is just roughly what I want it to look like, many things will change.





Thanks for reading, here are some examples on just how much the gun changes in the hands of the individual person. All parts are commonly found AR-15 accessories. Also a glimpse on how a long action may look.

 
Great feedback and criticism guys, I really appreciate it! Keep it coming please.

There's no doubt it looks like a RPR, but the RPR is based on the AR-10/15. As is mine, so that's kind of a given. However the RPR won't have many things that I want on my design such as:
The ability to change the caliber in the field. The RPR requires a vice and specialized tools. My gun will have a quick change systems such as those found on $5,000+ military orientated rifles where the barrel can be swapped in minutes with hand tools.
The RPR is only available in a few calibers, my gun will have 10+ in short and long action, including magnum rounds which the RPR doesn't have.
The RPR comes off as an AR style rifle that can use AR parts, but in reality some parts don't mesh with it well.
No offense to Ruger they made a great rifle, but the RPR is just a gun in the shape of a AR, this is pretty much an AR. So it will have much more options, i don't think the AR market is going anywhere for a long time, so why not embrace it and give people a rifle they can use that box of old AR parts on.


Why a bolt action design and not a semiauto traditional gas operation?
Better accuracy and stronger lockup.
A semi auto system simply wouldn't work for a modular quick change caliber system. You'd have to worry about the cartridge not having enough power to cycle the gun, or worry that there's to much power and the gun cycles to fast causing jams and damage to the rifle. Plus subsonic ammunition is almost always likely to cause problems paired with the increased sound of having a gas porting system makes the bolt action design far superior in this application.


Don't get it wrong, the gun shown is not a DMR rifle at all, this is designed for snipers purely. The one in the image configured is simply an example of the many variations it can be in. If i showed a .300 Win Mag with a 28" barrel I think there would be less confusion of the role of this design. The one shown is more configured for 50-300m engagements in close urban settings. The barrel length allows it to be concealed in a backpack and easy to maneuvered in doors.


Am I late to the party? Yes maybe, however in my research I didn't find a single bolt action AR-15 style rifle. Well there were ones in .50 BMG but I think that's a bit ludicrous and does not encroach on the market I'm aiming for at all. And although business wise it makes sense to build these as uppers that drop into an AR lower, I actually envisioned them as a more one piece receiver, caliber would be changed through the barrel nut not by replacing the upper. There's a reason for this, simply AR's have to much extra stuff not needed on a bolt action, plus if it's a one piece design the rigidity and vibration harmonics will be incredible.


Many would think an AR-15 style receiver bolt action would be less accurate and more complicated then a traditional hunting style gun such as the Remington 700. That couldn't be further from the truth, almost all precision rifles now days are moving on from the traditional design to a once piece chassis. This is because it removes all variables and essentially makes the firearm a 1 piece design rather than a 2 piece design. With traditional receivers that are bolted to a stock, things like flex and bedding and tension are a huge issue, there has been testing done that shows even having the screws 5 in/lbs to loose or tight can double group sizes. This adds up to a gun that is always changing zero and group size. The first use of a moncore design in a bolt action I can think of is the AI L96, It had its stock essentially welded to the barreled action giving it great accuracy. That is why I think my rifle design offers more than just throwing a Remington 700 in a aluminum chassis.


Now it's not all smooth sailing, I'm having a very hard time designing a sturdy smooth compact bolt, when designing a gun you really can only pick one of those 3. The issue with a small bolt is that there's a big crevice behind it where a bunch of mud can get and jam the action. Guns like the RPR and MRAD do away with that issue by making the bolt unnecessarily long to fill that area. The 2nd issue is the magazines. I originally said it will take AI and AR mags but I might have to retract that statement. The magazines need to be somehow fully adjustable to be able to feed any cartridge on the spectrum, I'm either thinking of making removable inserts in the magazines for different calibers, or making the inside dimensions of the magazine adjustable. My goal is to have this gun be able to be swapped to a different cartridge in less than 5 mins with just an allen key.


I know i am not innovating much at all, and that my rifle isn't the best at anything, but i just want it to be an extremely durable, precise, jack of all trades. Kind of like a smaller way more affordable Remington MSR.


I'm going to make a V2 rendering after I get a bit more feedback, this particular one was made in just a few hours and is just roughly what I want it to look like, many things will change.





Thanks for reading, here are some examples on just how much the gun changes in the hands of the individual person. All parts are commonly found AR-15 accessories. Also a glimpse on how a long action may look.

You may check into the t/c dimension for changing chambered cartridges quickly, not an ar style but quick easy changes. Not saying to copy it, but you might get an idea.....
 
@jmar - the RPR is not based on the AR-10/15. It's a Ruger American bolt action wrapped in a proprietary Ruger chassis, without the design flaws I pointed out in your mock up. It uses some AR furniture strapped on the chassis, but none of it actually touches the action or barrel.
 
Have you ever personally reworked feed rails and ramps to make a magnum length action and mag box feed short action cartridges?
 
I fail to see the need for a bolt action rifle at close range. A semi auto AR can be sub MOA easily enough, so the slightly better accuracy you're going to see with a bolt action won't be all that noticeable until you get out to long range. Think about it this way. An SPR can be half MOA if you pull out all the stops. That means at 600 yards, which is really stretching a small caliber like that, you're looking at a rifle capable of doing 3'' groups. Let's say you could get a bolt action down to quarter MOA. That would be 1.5'' groups. BUT, a small caliber like that is going to be affected by wind and thermal variations, so you won't see those groups in the real world. I just think the practical difference in accuracy would largely be inconsequential. A more realistic range for such cartridges is 300 yards, and the accuracy difference is even less meaningful. Basically, both semi auto and bolt action are going to give you easy hits at any range they're capable of reaching out to, so in my opinion a short range bolt action rifle doesn't make much sense. I see little use for a bolt action smaller than .308.

However, when you start going out to 1k yards the accuracy difference could mean the difference between hitting or missing a man size target. I think you can start making a case for a bolt action rifle in .308, a better case for 300 win mag, and a rock solid case for .338 Lapua. With that said, I don't see any way you're going to squeeze anything bigger than a .308 into an AR10 lower, unless it's single shot, which I don't see a large market for. POF also has you beat with their straight pull bolt action design, not to mention you can build a straight pull bolt action AR10 from components commonly available. All you have to do is order a barrel without the gas port drilled and stick it in a side charging upper, which is easy enough to do. Or get an adjustable gas block with an off setting and be able to transition back and forth between bolt action and semi auto, which would allow you to use subsonic .308 in manual mode, then switch back to semi for supersonic.

I really think your best chance of success is going to come from small subsonics that are whisper quiet, where you can argue the sound of a semi auto BCG reciprocating adds to the sound signature of the platform. Again, I would liken it to a modern de Lisle carbine, and if you could make it very light and very compact then it might actually be a valid tool for special operations. Subsonic .223 would probably make the most sense in that case because they would only have to carry one suppressor, which most of them already do.

Such weapons are rumored to be in use amongst special operations. The Israelis use a suppressed 10/22 that's basically a suppressor with a rifle on it. It was originally intended for less lethal border skirmishes, but they stopped using it for that purpose due to humanitarian pressure. Special forces got them after that and supposedly have used them for taking out sentries during raids on Hezbollah. I think a subsonic .223 would be arguably as quiet and have a better BC and more penetration, increasing its effective range.

What would be very nifty is if you could work out how to use a standard AR barrel extension, that way people could buy the receiver with the bolt from you and build it themselves with handguards and barrels already on the market. I think that short bolt you've designed is very conducive to this purpose, as it would not interfere with the buffer in the lower. So all the user would have to do is separate their standard upper and swap it out with the bolt action upper, which takes all of 20 seconds. Add another 20 seconds to swap the suppressor and it's still very manageable.

I would buy one just for the niftyness of it, and who knows you might fool around a pick up military contracts while you're at it. Again, though, focus on making it as light and compact as possible. Fully broken down, something like that could fit inside an accessory pouch, which would make it more appealing IMO. You could even pair it with a dedicated lower with a very low profile folding stock and fit the entire thing into a small briefcase once it's broken down.

ETA: The one problem I foresee is trying to pull the bolt back against the hammer to recock it. Might not be a problem at all, or it might be easily solved with a reduced power hammer spring. You would just have to play with it and see.
 
A bolt version of this on a Savage type action or Howa Mini might sell; Civilian sales for varmint and hog, miliatry and LE sales for sentry takeout/LE urban sniper work.

 
A bolt version of this on a Savage type action or Howa Mini might sell; Civilian sales for varmint and hog, miliatry and LE sales for sentry takeout/LE urban sniper work.


Just speaking for myself, I would not be in the market for something like that, whereas I would buy a bolt action AR upper just for the novelty because it would not require a second stamp. If you had a bolt action AR15 upper that accepted standard barrels and handguards I would buy one today (assuming the price was reasonabl).

I would also submit that the bolts on .22 automatics like the 10/22 are already very quiet, so I don't know if having a bolt action .22 would make a whole lot of sense, and the exotic .22 lr market is already pretty full. I could definitely see it being an advantage on an AR though.

ETA: I can't emphasize enough that the appeal for me would be to have something cool and fun to shoot without having to buy another tax stamp. I would probably go the 300 BLK route myself, but having a subsonic .223 would be very nifty as well. The beauty is that the user could decide between the two if it accepted standard barrel extensions. And if they used a QD barrel system (several already exist), then they could even switch back and forth between them in a matter of seconds.

Then there's the advantage of being able to switch to supersonic for longer range shots. In that role it would be a nice briefcase sniper rifle. Probably wouldn't see any real world use in that capacity, but you might end up seeing it in a spy movie someday.:)
 
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There is this:

Chiappa-M4-22-Bolt-Action.jpg


It's the Chiappa M4 22 bolt action upper. You could study the lockup for your design and just build a larger version of it with a .223 bolt head and more travel. It looks like you could increase the travel enough to strip a full length round and still not interfere with the buffer at all.

You could also make it really easy on yourself and essentially modify a standard BCG design by chopping off the carrier tail and moving the cam slot to the right side, then extending the cam pin to make a bolt handle. Then just make some sort of locking mechanism where you would have to press a button on the bolt handle while lifting up to prevent the bolt from getting knocked out of battery. That could be as simple as a flat spring that engaged a cutout in the receiver when the bolt handle was fully in the closed position. You might even be able to make it to where the handle and ejection was reversible by the user by cutting two cam slots and ejection ports on either side. The bolt and carrier would have to be proprietary, but the critical dimensions are already there for you to copy, and the bolt would share the same firing pin, extractor, and ejector as standard milspec bolts. You could probably also make the carrier out of aluminum to save cost and weight, since the mechanism wouldn't have to rely on mass for functionality. Heck, you might even be able to use standard mispec receiver forgings and modify them slightly by adding a notch for the bolt handle and milling away the forward assist and bulge where the cam pin would normally sit.

Or make it easier yet by simply making it a straight pull, again having some kind of locking mechanism to keep it from getting bumped out of battery. This would have the further advantage of using standard AR15 bolts, so the user could change calibers at will. Only the carrier would be proprietary, and you could even modify a standard carrier by simply chopping the tail and drilling and tapping it for the straight pull bolt handle. Put a locking detent on the handle and you're done!:thumbup: You could even design the locking mechanism to where it was automatically disengaged by simply pulling straight back on the bolt handle.

It would also use all standard uppers with the very slight modification of cutting a slot for the bolt handle. There are tons of side charge uppers on the market already that would work for a prototype. Shoot, you could build a functional prototype in your garage with a drill press. And all you have to bring to market is a proprietary upper receiver and bolt carrier, and all your critical dimensions would be directly copied from the milspec drawings. Your R&D cost would be next to nothing, and the end result could come to market for under 200 dollars easy. I would buy that product right here on the spot if it were available today.

ETA: I took the spring and buffer out of one of my ARs to see how much resistance the hammer had and it was super easy recocking it by pulling the bolt back. And quiet! With a reduced power hammer spring I think you could operate it much more quietly than a standard bolt action rifle if you were careful and went slowly.
 
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The hammer cocking isn't the difficult part in running a conventional AR rotating bolt as a manual action. The challenge is in the lack of leverage to cam the bolt open. Fire an AGB AR with the port closed sometime, opening it is a bear even with moderate pressure loads, compared to a conventional bolt lift. There is a reason we use turn bolts in bolt rifles.

The idea of an AR shaped bolt gun is largely silly. The height of optics over bore in AR platforms is a problem, and designing a bolt action chassis to incorporate that same problem isn't ideal. The RPR has done well, despite this issue, but look at how the market is buying guns... Other chassis rifles which utilize AR stocks drop the extension below the bolt way, such they can drop the optic right on top of the barrel where it belongs.

What I see in the rendering is a 4-5 piece chassis with a rifle crippling mud/debris port, all of which is far from ideal. But being a sniper rifle designed by a shooter who took their first 1,000yrd range trip last week, the bar wasn't very high.
 
Have you ever personally reworked feed rails and ramps to make a magnum length action and mag box feed short action cartridges?

I still would like to hear how you're going to solve the feeding problem, if it is going to be capable of running 223/5.56, 308win, and 300win mag length cartridges all within the same platform.

That seems like one of the biggest design issues I can see. Most of the rest has been done, but I don't see how you can make a life-dependent reliable rifle with feeding issues.
 
The hammer cocking isn't the difficult part in running a conventional AR rotating bolt as a manual action. The challenge is in the lack of leverage to cam the bolt open. Fire an AGB AR with the port closed sometime, opening it is a bear even with moderate pressure loads, compared to a conventional bolt lift. There is a reason we use turn bolts in bolt rifles.

The idea of an AR shaped bolt gun is largely silly. The height of optics over bore in AR platforms is a problem, and designing a bolt action chassis to incorporate that same problem isn't ideal. The RPR has done well, despite this issue, but look at how the market is buying guns... Other chassis rifles which utilize AR stocks drop the extension below the bolt way, such they can drop the optic right on top of the barrel where it belongs.

What I see in the rendering is a 4-5 piece chassis with a rifle crippling mud/debris port, all of which is far from ideal. But being a sniper rifle designed by a shooter who took their first 1,000yrd range trip last week, the bar wasn't very high.
This isn't going to be a conventional AR bolt. The bolt and bolt head are going to be completely custom. Height over bore is not really a problem considering almost all modern precision rifles have heights higher or equal than my rendering, look at all the Accuracy international rifles, the RPR, the Barrett MRAD, the FNH Ballista, the Remington MSR... If you see a 5 piece chassis you need your eyes checked. How can that be when my rendering uses a AR lower and modified upper? That'd be 2 pieces maximum... The grip and stock are not part of the chassis, they will have no noticeable impact on the harmonic nodes and antinodes compared to any other rifle. And I already said it will be a 1 piece receiver in the final product. I have solved the mud issues, there will be no gap behind the closed bolt anymore. Please cut the snark out, 1000 yards is still more than many people have shot and I have been studying guns and their design and applications since I was 8, that has no relevance here or any other thread of mine. The gun will be sent to professionals who will give me feedback, my skill behind a rifle is not important.
 
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