Feeling Like I Need More

[txhoghunter]

Mike, I am going to go against the popular choice here for a 12 ga and work with what you want. If you want a pistol with a higher capacity, it is by all means a good investment. I would recommend a 9mm, because in one magazine you can have more rounds than if it was chambered in .40 or .45. It is also a weapon that your wife could handle if she needed to. With the idea that there could very well be multiple assailants present, I would opt for 17 rounds of 9mm as opposed to 8 rounds of .45 ACP. (no I don't want this to start an argument, just giving my reasons)

Glocks are nice, as are XD's for the purpose you are talking about. Just try to get one with night sights and a couple extra magazines (I believe the XD currently comes in a package with 3 mags?). I also cannot emphasize enough the need to train with whatever you plan on defending yourself (and your family) with.

Having a flashlight on the bedside table with the gun is also a good idea.

 

[txhoghunter]

And with convicts, you don't know how willing they will be to go back to prison. If they are wanting to go down in a hail of bullets, be it you or the cops, they will start a gunfight. I would not recommend racking a shotgun to "try" to scare them off because this type of mentality is a possibility. If they have a deathwish, let them find out where you are with a well-aimed gunshot. Don't give them the information about where you, your wife and child are before they deserve it.

 

[xcgates]

What is more scary to the convicts would be the gunshot that announces to them that I see them breaking in to steal something. If I miss, it won't be on purpose, and if I hit one, that one had better stop moving, or start running away, ditto for his buddies.

I do not think anyone would be wise to rely on the sound of a gun being loaded to scare off a criminal. All that means is you are unprepared until you finally chamber a round.

 

[Remo223]

The civilian worrying about escaped miscreants is neither a sworn officer nor a soldier in combat. He or she cannot lawfully employ deadly force to "control" an area.

...unless you live in texas

 

[txhoghunter]

...unless you live in texas

and some just aren't fortunate enough to live here

but in Texas we do still have a sense of right and wrong....however if someone is in the wrong they will not have a good day....

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Remo223: ...unless you live in texas

Let us not spread misconceptions that could put members afoul of the law, or make statements that can reflect poorly on THR.

One may defend himself or herself or third parties against imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm when immediately necessary in all US jurisdictions; in many, including Texas, an unlawful entry made with force into an occupied home provides a presumption that deadly force was necessary to do that; in many, including Texas, there is no duty to retreat; and in many, including Texas, deadly force may be used when necessary to prevent certain felonies, most of which involve the threat of serious bodily harm (eg, burglary, robbery, and/or arson).

What sets Texas apart is a legal provision that covers the use of deadly force to protect property under limited circumstances. That section addresses robbery, burglary, and arson (which are in most states addressed in laws or case law that cover the defense of persons); it also addresses theft and criminal mischief (which is defined in the law) during the night time; and it also provides for the use of deadly force, when it is immediately necessary, to prevent someone from escaping with property taken during one of the covered crimes.

The law does not permit a person to use deadly force to "control an area". The key problem with shooting at someone in the out of doors at other than short range is that it is much more difficult to argue convincingly that the use of deadly force was in fact necessary, which is to say that the actor had no other choice.

Yes, in Texas, if one shoots someone who is going away with the prize bull at night, one may well prevail in arguing that he or she had no other way of preventing the perps from escaping with the bull. However, this thread started with a question about defense against escaped convicts, and the relevant Texas law would differ little from that of many other jurisdictions.

 

[Zanad]

perhaps instead of more gun, what about more training?

 

[Panzercat]

I would also hazard to say a keltec su16, specifically the 'c' varient would do well for home defense after a shotty.

No, hear me out.

Yes, there are plenty of alternatives, but this one is under 5lbs unloaded. Fold down stock for close quarters. Less over-penetration with the 5.56/223 round (comparitively speaking). Minimal recoil. Ability to handle higher capacities than 7+1. Ability to handle hi-cap magazines folded down.

It's not a full on battle rifle (nor is it intended to be) and I easily conceed it will run you more than a cheap 12 or 20 gauge ($550 at current prices), but it provides for home defense as well as more serious ranged encounters.

 

[TexasRifleman]

The sound of a shotgun being charged in the middle of the night will scare the bejeezuz out of the bad guys and that is usually plenty enough to get them gone.

If they don't reconsider after hearing the weapon being charged, well enough said.

No offense intended to you guys but that often repeated saying goes in the top 10 list of "wrong information spread on gun forums".

It works great in the movies but in the real world there doesn't seem to be any evidence to support it having any effect. All it really means is that you are keeping your self defense firearm unloaded and one round under capacity.

 

[Panzercat]

On that note, I'd like to see the statistic that disproves the fact that racking a 12g doesn't avoid an encounter. Logically speaking, it's much harder to prove a negative, as in an intruder that didn't get shot and simply ran away, got arrested etc.

That's a conversation for another thread tho

 

[USAF_Vet]

All it really means is that you are keeping your self defense firearm unloaded and one round under capacity.

I agree to an extent,. I have my 12 loaded with 00 and #4 buck in the mag tube, with 5 slugs in the side saddle. If the situation requires a slug over buck, a simple slug changeover is easier to do when the weapon isn't at max load.

My personal situation demands the need of options for HD, which is why I have the 12 under the bed and a 9mm carbine in the bedroom closet.
Of my weapons, these two strike me as the best for HD. .22LR to me just doesn't seem like enough gun, 7.62x54r is too much for the house, and 6.5x50 Japanese is just too darned expensive.

 

[MikeNice]

perhaps instead of more gun, what about more training?

There is a saying that applies to the more training idea. The best battle plan is laid to waste after the first shot. In other words, the fight will be what it wants to be, not what you wish it to be.

I agree that training is necessary, but anything can happen. I practice and I train. However, I also realiz that in the heat of battle five or six rounds may be sorely lacking and a .22lr underperforming. gun fights are fast paced and dynamic. The chances of hitting on any one of your training scenarios is low. So, carry all the gun you can, train and pray. That is my new motto.

 

[kayak-man]

I'm a big believer in the 12 guage pump gun, but if you want to go with a hand gun, I'd look into a 9mm like a GLOCK or xd. Another idea (might not be the best one, but worth throwing out there) would be to pick up a Hi-Point Carbine, so that you atleast have another long gun with some stopping power.

Either way, I'll be praying for y'all tonight/today

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

 

[TexasBill]

Time to play contrarian again... The shotgun is not the perfect home defense firearm. Racking the shotgun also gives your position away. A pump shotgun is the only single-action weapon I have ever heard anyone recommend for a defensive weapon. Worse, unlike a cowboy Colt, you don't just cock the hammer, you have to fully rack the slide for every shot. A short stroke leaves you with an empty, or even jammed, gun. At household ranges, the shot just doesn't spread far enough for that old "aim in the general direction" myth.

Then there's the fact that you and the shotgun need to be in the same place for it to do you any good. Plus, it needs to be ready to use, i.e., loaded and unlocked.

Don't get me wrong: a 12 gauge or 20-gauge shotgun can be very persuasive and if persuasion doesn't work, it can be very decisive. But you always have to figure Murphy's Law into home defense scenarios and you need to have a plan for getting to the heavy artillery. And that plan may need to include being able to get off a couple of shots from a handgun to let the BGs know this isn't going to be easy pickings.

 

[USAF_Vet]

A short stroke leaves you with an empty, or even jammed, gun.

True, but combat physiology has proven that a body under stress loses fine motor control in favor of major muscle group control. With my Mav88, I have to actually try to create a short stroke. Under combat stress, I would say a short stroke on pretty much any pump gun is highly improbable. Also, the primary reason a shotgun is a highly acclaimed HD weapon is the sheer amount of destruction it can cause to the human body. Also, going back to combat physiology, a scatter from a buck shot requires less fine motor accuracy than a combat rifle.

The vast majority of people in an HD situation have never been in combat, and/ or lack the training for actual combat. I'll be the first to admit, I'm not in the shape I was in when I was on active duty, and my skills are not nearly as sharp due to lack of any real training since I got out. While I've proven to myself I can deliver accurate fire in combat, my SA isn't anywhere on point as it was in Iraq.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, for average joe, a 12 gauge pump is enough gun for most HD situations. It's accurate without the need for pinpoint aiming, devastating to the human body, simple to use and does not require a lot of training. In a nutshell its an Oh ****! gun.

 

[Skyshot]

An open choke short barrel shot gun is what you need, never mind about the sound of racking the gun, you'll have it racked at the first sound that you think is out of place. Next is your defensive plan, you need to have a safe room and get everyone there asap. Remember, you know your house better than the BG's, make a plan for your family. If you think you got intruders inside and you have your family with you stay put and make them find you. If not then you'll need to clear rooms to get to your loved ones. This is where you gonna need to know all corners, angles and places that offer a barrier cover. I hope the BG's get caught without any problems. Now is a good time to put your plan into reality.

 

[CZ223]

Bottom line

A shotgun is great and a rifle is fine but, if a semi-auto is what you want, go with it. As allready mentioned, it can double as a carry gun. I would probably feel better with a 1911 or Glock in my hand than my 870 or AR. I would go with a Glock 23 in 40 S&W.

 

[xcgates]

I do wonder about short-stroking, only one other person has shot my 870 with more than one round in it, and I sure only got a short-stroke when I was trying to do some goofy thing I'd never do off the range. I forget exactly what I was doing, but I was intentionally shortening the strokes.

If anything, when I practiced shooting as fast as possible, I was going by the "hammer the living snot out of it" philosophy, yanking as hard as I could back, and as hard as I could forward. Kind of like when I've taught some people oddball driving things, if your brakes fail when you are stomping on them as hard as you are capable of, we have much bigger problems. Of course I can see how short stroking could be a problem, as I've seen many people afraid to use the appropriate level of input to machines such as guns or vehicles. No the gun won't be damaged by letting the bolt slam home, no the car won't be hurt by going full throttle/full brakes, and so forth. :banghead:

(Introducing many people to shotgun, I don't normally load more than one shell at a time, so there is no possible danger if there is an adverse reaction from the first shot. Rack back, drop in shell, rack forward, and go. And the only adverse reaction I have ever had came later from the Californian's wife when she found out how much fun her hubbie had shooting.)

::EDIT:: I should add that I keep the 870 for SD because my other options are a .22LR bolt action rifle, Mosin Nagant, or a .22LR pistol. And I don't want to pick up a centerfire pistol until I've fired a few of them.

 

[Bubba613]

Racking the shotgun also gives your position away.

Uh boy.
Yes. It tells the bad guy that you are awake, armed, and aware of his presence. Now, how are any of those bad things?

 

[Shadow 7D]

No, but the bullets that follow the ^^^
are....

You are giving up two advantages, surprise and position.

 

[Old Shooter]

Just wondering...what sort of BG is going to advance towards the sound of the shotgun being racked and loaded? Or for that matter, after the first shot in his direction how many are going to stick around for a battle that would use up the 4 or 5 rounds in that shotgun? Just speaking for myself and my anticipated reaction, at the sound of the racking or the first shot...I'm gone, gonna look for an easier target. But I suppose there might be some situations....

 

[txhoghunter]

Yes. It tells the bad guy that you are awake, armed, and aware of his presence. Now, how are any of those bad things?

You are giving away the element of surprise. Why do ambushes work so well for those that set them up? Because they have the element of surprise. Keep it as long as possible and your chances of winning what could end up in a gun battle increase.

what sort of BG is going to advance towards the sound of the shotgun being racked and loaded?

Some people can see this as a challenge and criminals (not always being in a straight thinking state of mind) can call that challenge and come in shooting. Remember, YOU have to identify a target to know what you are shooting at, THEY don't. Also, with how many people say to use this as a defense, a BG could see it as a bluff. If anyone will call a bluff like this, I would say a criminal would.

Just speaking for myself and my anticipated reaction, at the sound of the racking or the first shot...I'm gone, gonna look for an easier target. But I suppose there might be some situations....

Now I have to ask. Do you break in to people's houses for a living? I understand that a shotgun being racked would scare the you-know-what outta me, but I'm not running from the law and willing to kill to keep from going back to prison. Someone with that mindset might have a different agenda.

 

[xcgates]

Anyone who has dealt with people under the influence, be it legal or illegal substances, should know how normal reactions of a normal person not under the influence can easily go out the window.

 

[suzukisam]

Kleanbore- I'm an avid duck hunter. I know all about aiming a shotgun, actually I don't aim at all, I point. I was saying if your stressed out and your shaky a shotgun will give a better chance of pointing and blasting blasting that direction. The handgun fight statistics prove that in tense situations people don't have great accuracy. a shotgun does improve odds with a two handed hold on a rifle I think. just my opinion

 

[txhoghunter]

suzukisam- although some will load a defensive shotgun with loads close to size of waterfowl loads, it is the distance that changes. A waterfowl load generally has 20-45 yds to pattern to a nice spread. However, self defense situations are rarely over 20 FT. The shot just does not have time to pattern. Yes, a direct hit will do more damage. But the common misconception of point and shoot just doesn't hold as much water as many think.