Finally asked for my CHP

[stickhauler]

He didn't remind me, I reminded him. My permit is from a neighboring county so I think he had trouble finding the exp. date. Fortunately for him, I have all the information on my permit memorized.

Aren't Virginia permits a standardized form? I know Ohio's are.

 

[luigi]

If you were the LEO you would have asked.

No, I wouldn't

 

[halfded]

Thanks for all the responses guys. Not really talking about them questioning my legality to carry so much as the attitude in which the situation was handled.

Luckily this won't be happening again in the near future as I don't dress up like that but once in a blue moon. I know I probably should have found something better to wear, but I'm not gonna spend good money on a suit that I'm never gonna wear. The one I had was fine, just a little small in the shoulders, warranting the extra caution hen driving. Maybe this whole thing was a result of my cheapness! On any normal day when I wear what I want, there's no chance this guy would have spotted me.

Virginia permits are a standardized form but are still issued by the applicant's resident county. Can't say if they're different or not, or how much. Never seen anyone' permit but my own.

 

[model of 1905]

Every time someone sees a speeder they say "WHERE ARE THE COPS???" when they ARE the speed they say "GO ARREST SOME REAL CRIMINALS!!!!"

Point is, he was doing his job, was polite for the most part didn't ask to handle your weapon and go nutty when a bullet was "chambered" and then unload it and tell you to keep it that way or anything. Just examined the your "papers" and left. Maybe he was irritated about having to ask if your "papers were in order".

You handled it well. If only ALL meeting went so smoothly! Sorry to hear about your recent loss... Did you at least get a frosty?

Ze papers, I need to see ze papers.

I guess you are OK with the government stealing your rights and liberties?

 

[shockwave]

I guess you are OK with the government stealing your rights and liberties?

Where did the OP say any such thing? Seems like there's a gang of people on this board who are one-trick ponies. Anybody says they get a permit, that means they are endorsing full-on totalitarian fascism. I think comments like the one above need to get toned down a little.

Fact is, carrying a firearm around means that sooner or later you may have some interactions with law enforcement and I, for one, find details about these encounters to be informative and helpful. Yammer about "rights and liberties" that has zero bearing on the matter? Not so much.

 

[wishin]

^^ Amen.........

 

[TexasBill]

You noticed the deputy and the deputy probably noticed you. I would imagine in the process of getting your jacket, the deputy could see your gun. You at that time are carrying openly, which I believe is legal, but elect to put on a jacket, concealing the weapon, which requires a permit. The deputy makes the assumption that you, having seen him, are trying to conceal a weapon. Any cop with a moiety of his marbles is going to be made curious by your actions and investigate. Since you acted in what, to him, appeared to be in a suspicious manner, he acted appropriately. You presented your license, he examined your license, and took no further action. What's your beef?

I don't mean to be hard on you but as I read your narrative, I kept wondering why you took the actions that you did. I would certainly have asked you about it and I would certainly have been cautious in case you didn't have a good answer.

I agree we shouldn't have to have licenses, but they are currently a fact of life and there are jails and fines for people who don't believe that. You agreed to work with the system when you applied for your CHL and you did so in this instance.

 

[model of 1905]

Where did the OP say any such thing? Seems like there's a gang of people on this board who are one-trick ponies. Anybody says they get a permit, that means they are endorsing full-on totalitarian fascism. I think comments like the one above need to get toned down a little.

Fact is, carrying a firearm around means that sooner or later you may have some interactions with law enforcement and I, for one, find details about these encounters to be informative and helpful. Yammer about "rights and liberties" that has zero bearing on the matter? Not so much.

Look, Mr. 400 posts in two months, if you had read the quote in my post you would know I wasn't referring to the OP. I really could give a damn about what you are interested in. Learn a little respect.

 

[JoeSlomo]

No issue imo.

Police on the scene, see's a firearm being concealed, confirms it is legal to do so, and that is that. Individual in question presents his permit, and goes about his business. I'd rather that incident take place than if a criminal had concealed a weapon in front of an officer and gone inside and whacked his girlfriend or something...

I'm curious if the officer would have said anything had the OP just gone inside while simply open carrying.

 

[ChaoSS]

If you were the LEO you would have asked.

No, I think many of us would not have, if we were LEOs. I think the main difference between a guy like me and the wrong kind of LEO is that they see everyone as a potential criminal. They have no problems exercising and abusing their authority in the hopes of finding something amiss. They have no problems trying to coerce someone into submitting to a search in the hopes of finding something illegal.


No, they aren't doing anything illegal, but their attitude sure sucks. It may net more arrests, but at what cost?

 

[Alex45ACP]

Even though I will agree that we really shouldn't need "papers", we live in the real world, where L/E's need to be cautious to live another day....

I'm not cop-bashing here, but I'm tired of seeing this argument used to justify police militarization and other excesses.

First of all, police work really isn't that dangerous. Sure, it's more dangerous than being an accountant, but let's gain some perspective here. In the US in 2004, 57 law enforcement officers were killed in violent incidents in the line of work. That's out of about 700,000 officers (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/law_enforcement_personnel/index.html). Delivering pizzas is more dangerous than being a cop.

Secondly, police officers choose their occupation willingly. No one is forcing them into it. The risks are small, and they accept them when they take the job. If you can't stand the heat, you don't get to trample on my rights. Get a new job.

As to this incident, I'll just say I can think of many other more productive things the officer in question could have spent his time and the taxpayers' dollars doing instead.

 

[rswartsell]

Hmmm, references to "professional courtesy" and acting very "professional". Just curious guys, professional what?

Alex45acp, don't agree with you at all on behalf of the many good LEO's that put it on the line (I know they aren't all heros, but from the good ones), you are welcome.

No I'm not a LEO, but it doesn't damage my rights at all to respect the good ones. Many of the most respected members of THR are or were LEO. Your simplistic view of the dangers of the profession and the risks routinely faced explain a poor understanding of what they must do to mitigate these risks and get home at night.

P.S. and if more of them died in the line of duty each year you would probably call them incompetent.

 

[Ed4032]

I got stopped a few years ago. After running my drivers license the cop came back and asked me about my CHL. I told him it had expired and I did not carry any more. (the truth). He lectured me about how important it is to renew and carry. Handed me my drivers license back and told me to drive safe. But this Texas, a free state. I got my license renewed after that.

 

[halfded]

Double Tap..

 

[halfded]

Since you acted in what, to him, appeared to be in a suspicious manner, he acted appropriately. You presented your license, he examined your license, and took no further action. What's your beef?

SO a person getting out of their car in dress attire and then putting on a suit jacket is suspicious? I see suspicious people every day then. I know I wouldn't want to wrinkle a $600 jacket if I had one. Going from open to concealed carry is legal in my state (for the umpteenth time) so even if suspicious he had no justified reason to bother me.

My "beef" isn't so much that he stopped to talk to me (again previously stated) but the attitude and body language presented during our little meet and greet. The deputy (as stated in my OP) seemed as though he was sniffing around trying to catch something. I don't appreciate being approached as though I'm on a felony traffic stop while I'm having lunch with my wife.

I don't mean to be hard on you but as I read your narrative, I kept wondering why you took the actions that you did. I would certainly have asked you about it and I would certainly have been cautious in case you didn't have a good answer.

And who are you to be hard on me? No offense, but you weren't there. I posted this as an informative read for those (me included) that like to read about LEO encounters to get some ideas how to better handle the situation when/if it arises. No where did I ask for advice or say "how did I do" or "is there anything I could have done idfferently". The event can't be replayed, but if it could I wouldn't change it. I was in the right and handled myself properly as far as I'm concerned.

If you had read the other replies I had posted in the thread, you wouldn't be questioning why I took the actions I did. Let me recap them for you though just to make things easier.

I don't dress up but maybe once a year and as such, don't feel the need to buy a new suit jacket every time I gain or lose a little weight. The jacket I was wearing is a little small across the shoulders and I was afraid that it would rip if I tried to drive with it on. When I got to the restaurant, I found a spot where I was visibly isolated from others when I got out of the car so I could throw my jacket on real quick. I saw the patrol car sitting there, but paid it no mind since most of the LEOs around here aren't of the mindset of this particular deputy I spoke with. As I got out of the car, jacket in hand, I immediately spun 180 degrees so my handgun was facing the brick wall of a building, hidden by the A-pillar of my car. Then I put my jacket on. There was a span of time of maybe 2-3 seconds as I stood and turned, in which time the deputy must have seen my gun. Let me hazard a guess to say that he was doing his job and observing his surroundings and, noticing a newcomer to the parking lot, directed his attention toward me. He was in his car waiting for his partner and I was the only activity I could see in the parking lot at that time.

Hopefully that clears up any confusion as to what happened and the actions I took.

 

[woad_yurt]

If I was really up to no good, would I really be dumb enough to open carry a shiny revolver in a shiny leather holster in broad daylight right in front of 2 LEOs?

Maybe not you but some wrongdoers don't act so "prudently." Remember Joel Rifkin, the serial killer from Long Island? They caught him because he was driving without any license plate on his pickup. He had a very ripe cadaver under a tarp right in the bed of his truck.

 

[NCSteveH]

"Thanks for all the responses guys. Not really talking about them questioning my legality to carry so much as the attitude in which the situation was handled"



The attitude that they took with you is not to be construed as aggressive or rude, It is basic survival in law enforcement, 2vs1 is better than 1vs1, the officers being spread apart gives them a tactical advantage should things go bad, the fact that you said that they realized you were sizing up the situation as they were sizing up you would have put any LEO into very high situational awareness. Most of these guys have families and just want to go home at the end of their shifts instead of to the hospital or worse the morgue. Sometimes you just have to look at it through the other shoes eyes. It all ended well, just as it should have.

 

[halfded]

I'm familiar with the mindset trained in law enforcement as far as being the dominant body in a situation.

I'm also familiar with rude.

I'd hope his situational awareness was up before he even started to approach me as well. I understand that they don't know me or my intentions and as such I understand their perceived need to have the upper hand on me.

Also, this is the first time I"ve had an encounter like this with any police officer in the area. I'm not stopped very often, but I do keep my handgun on the passenger seat on longer trips so it doesn't dig into my back, and have never had an issue when stopped for registration or anything. I've even asked them if they want to see it (when I first got it) and was rather disappointed when they looked disinterested and said "No thanks".

I just think that:
"Afternoon young man, you got a permit for that weapon you got stuck in your belt?"

Could have been substituted by:
"Excuse me sir, can I see your CHP for the handgun that you're carrying?"

I didn't have baggy pants and a hoodie on mexican carrying; I was dressed in slacks and a dress shirt carrying a well cared for revolver in a proper holster.

As a side note on "things going bad" for the officers; cops don't get shot, or even shot at, around here very often at all. There has been one LEO death in recent history that I'm aware of. That officer (coincidentally the same guy I took my CCW class from) was looking for a suspect in an assault case (I believe), and was ambushed and shot in the back of the head.

Reason for caution? Yes. Anything about the above situation and mine relative? Nope. Relevance to this conversation? Probably close to zero, but it might provide some insight to the type of town I live in. They aren't exactly bombarded daily with gunfire and SWAT operations and the like.

Now that I think about it, I think that's the deputy that works the door at all the gun shows, which means he's surely seen me before not only in possession of firearms, but actively purchasing them as well (on the books, not private sales). He never looks too happy about being there though.

Oh well, maybe next time I'll get one of you guys and we can chat for a minute!

 

[Webbj0219]

CHP? California Highway Patrol? or CCW. Thats what that makes me think of. Sorry for my duh moment.

 

[spaceCADETzoom]

Now that I think about it, I think that's the deputy that works the door at all the gun shows, which means he's surely seen me before not only in possession of firearms, but actively purchasing them as well (on the books, not private sales). He never looks too happy about being there though.

Maybe that deputy is just naturally sour. Whether or not he intends to be, maybe he's just one of those guys that comes off as that way. Might have came off the same way if he were asking about your car or a broken tail light. Probably can't read too much into "gruffness." Maybe write him off as a jerk and be on your way.

 

[Alex23]

I just think that:
"Afternoon young man, you got a permit for that weapon you got stuck in your belt?"

Could have been substituted by:
"Excuse me sir, can I see your CHP for the handgun that you're carrying?"

I think you need to grow a thicker skin, honestly. You just wanted to be called Sir? LOL.

 

[NavyLCDR]

But this Texas, a free state.

Ed, I must vehemently disagree with you regarding that statement. In the state of Texas, in order for a person to have the means available to protect themselves in public, outside their home or car, that person must PAY to obtain a training certificate, PAY the state of Texas for PERMISSION to carry a firearm, and then is very limited as to what method they may use to carry that firearm. How can that possibly be viewed as FREE?

Personally, I think this demonstrates what part of our problem is today. We consider it "exercising our freedom" to carry a firearm that we have to pay to obtain a permit for. We consider it "perfectly acceptable" and "only doing his job" when a police officer, absent any hint - let alone reasonable and articulable suspicion - of a crime being committed, stops a perfectly law abiding citizen and asks if he is licensed. I am sorry, I don't consider any of that to be freedom.

 

[Alex23]

Ed, I must vehemently disagree with you regarding that statement. In the state of Texas, in order for a person to have the means available to protect themselves in public, outside their home or car, that person must PAY to obtain a training certificate, PAY the state of Texas for PERMISSION to carry a firearm, and then is very limited as to what method they may use to carry that firearm. How can that possibly be viewed as FREE?

Personally, I think this demonstrates what part of our problem is today. We consider it "exercising our freedom" to carry a firearm that we have to pay to obtain a permit for. We consider it "perfectly acceptable" and "only doing his job" when a police officer, absent any hint - let alone reasonable and articulable suspicion - of a crime being committed, stops a perfectly law abiding citizen and asks if he is licensed. I am sorry, I don't consider any of that to be freedom.

Agree with you about paying for the 'training' and license but still don't have any problem with an LEO asking to see my CHL if I effectively brandish a gun. Lots of crooks out there carrying who get caught like this all the time...as for the way he was dressed? Total red herring.

Bottom line is that they were polite and reasonable and it took maybe 1 minute out of his day.

I got pulled over a few times for suspected moving violations in LA at night. Both times the cops advanced from either side of the car with the pistols drawn and in the low position. Slightly intimidating sure, but I seem to recall traffic stops at night in the valley are not exactly low risk. Cut them some slack eh?

 

[thorazine]

The deputy makes the assumption that you, having seen him, are trying to conceal a weapon. Any cop with a moiety of his marbles is going to be made curious by your actions and investigate. Since you acted in what, to him, appeared to be in a suspicious manner, he acted appropriately.

Indeed.

Because owning and lawfully carrying firearms (open and or concealed) indicates -- bad person better investigate.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Cut them some slack eh?

And at what point should we stop "cutting them some slack?" Is it when they tell him to "assume the position" against the wall so they can disarm him and frisk him for further weapons before asking if he has a permit? If we are saying that it is OK for the officer to require the subject to answer the question "do you have a permit" or to produce that permit, then are we not saying that it would be OK for the officer to detain that person until it can be ascertained they do have a permit? And if that person is detained, lawfully, then the frisk and disarming "for officer safety" would also be legal. Maybe it is when they feel the need to handcuff him and retrieve his wallet themselves to see if he has a permit? Maybe it's when they face plant him on the ground with a gun pointed at him and a knee in the back? All of these types of incidents have happened in the past...

All I am saying is the line has to be drawn somewhere, and I think we, as pro-2A people, many times are entirely too complacent to let those lines be drawn entirely too close to our side of the playing field.