First CCW: 1911 v Snubbie

[93PT92]

Greetings high roaders!

I'm about a year off from getting my carry gun, but that hasn't stopped me from window shopping. I've been settled on a subnose revolver for some time now (S&W 642 or Ruger LCR, which is a topic for another thread). I feel that the reliability of a revolver, simple manual of arms, minimal points of failure, simple ftf solution (pull trigger again), and lack of manual safeties of any kind makes a revolver the ideal defensive handgun.

However, I've recently been tempted by the 1911 platform for what I feel are impractical reasons. My first choice, primarily as a factor of cost, as I can't really afford a gun over the $600 mark, is a Springfield G.I. Micro Compact. Today I visited my preferred LGS and handled 2 LCRs, a 642, a G.I. Champion, and a 3" (maybe 3.5") Kimber. Not sure of the model of the Kimber, but it was $850 and described as the "plain Jane" model.

The snubbies felt really good, and my fit in my hand naturally, even though my pinky had to wrap under the base of the grip, but the 1911s were even better. I am really aesthetically attracted to the 1911s, which is a stupid reason to buy a gun, but I need some feedback to sway me from going down that road as a first carry piece. I'm sure I will eventually have one of each, but my brain tells me to get a DAO revolver first, and my heart is screaming 1911.

Any advice for a torn THR noob? Sorry for the long post, I to tend to ramble on, and if requested I can edit this down or post up a quick summary to detail my views of the pros and cons.

Thanks in advance for any feedback, and please avoid recommending a gun not listed in this post. Don't need to make this any more complicated!

 

[167]

Are you a shooter who is just now getting in CCW or new to handguns all together?

 

[G27RR]

maybe you should rent each and get some trigger time with them. a snubbie can be difficult to shoot without a good bit of practice.

 

[Oro]

Welcome to the forum. It's a good place.

I've been torn between carrying 1911 style guns and revolvers since about 1993 when I first got a cc license. Love the 1911 type. But dang it's big. And even a Colt Commander can make a mid-sized Glock seem large (I once traded a Glock 23 for a much easier-to-carry Colt Commander). So mentally, what resolved it for me was a very old. and sage, axiom called "The First Rule of Gunfighting."

That rule states, flatly, "First, have a gun." Don't be a chump and get in a situation you need a gun and you left it at home because it was awkward to carry, too heavy, made your coat bulge, etc. This is an important thing to think about. Sean Connery got to express it on screen in "The Untouchables" when he pulled the Andy Garcia character short in showdown and said, "It's just like a Wop to bring a knife to a gunfight." No anti-Italian sentiment here, but it's a rule to live by and take to heart.

So in that regard, I've got a dozen 1911 type guns I never conceal carry. I like them. I carry them, but only openly in the woods or such. For cc, something small works well. It's easier to carry, you won't leave it behind when it's hot, you are dressing lighter, etc. It's there when you need it. It meets the first rule of gunfighting (FRoG).

For me, the old-school S&W j-frame 38's, like the 36 or 60, with the 2" barrels and round butts are great. Five shots of .38 special is FBI tested and proven to end most all encounters. What I carry the most are 2.5" S&W K-frame .357s (19 or 66 models), loaded with stout .38 +p rounds. Six shots, steady guns, easy to conceal in almost all weather or dress except in Aruba or South Florida in summer. God I miss Miami Vice. Guys who could pull out Bren Tens that were totally invisible until they needed them, all wearing roller blades, tank tops and grape smugglers. Now that was television!

So getting back to your list, look hard at the J-frames and all their variants (there are tons), and also the LCR. I'm not familiar with it yet, but it's in that category. The Ruger SP101 falls somewhere between the bunch and is worth looking at.

When they bury me, it's going to be with a really Freakin' nice 1911-type in a Tanker holster on my chest. But that ain't what I'll have been carrying everyday before that. As much as the 1911-style gun is a great combat weapon, it's not a great CC weapon.

 

[Cards81fan]

My honest advice for a first CCW?

Find a XD, Glock, or M&P in a subcompact size and go with that. Simple manual of arms, I believe easier to carry IWB due to the shorter grip and slide/barrel, and if you go 9mm, cheaper ammo than .38/.357 or .45 to practice with.

The 1911 can require a bit more maintenance and care than a polymer Wonder-nine, and the revolver can be difficult for a new shooter to manage (recoil in a light airweight). I also find it a bit large and heavy to carry, for me personally.

There's a reason most law enforcement agencies choose Glocks or M&Ps or SIG (SIG is likely out of your budget unless you got SIG PRO or P250). Well, they get them on a dirt cheap contract... but besides that! They work and are easy for a majority of shooter to feed and care for.

I think the Glock 26 is the easiest weapon I can carry aside from an LCP in my pocket. You want to go larger? Go with an XD Service or regular M&P or Glock 19... or now you can look at FNP, XDm, S&W Sigma, Taurus 24/7, CZ P01, Beretta PX4... the possibilities are unless within your budget. But I think the subcompact size is the winner for CCW. And I think the intermediate weight of a polymer semiauto (in between a metal frame semi and a light alloy revolver) is the gun of choice for the vast majority of users.

 

[93PT92]

I have been shooting a bit, but not a ton of trigger time. I plan on getting a 22 before either of these and shooting at least twice a month for a year before I feel qualified to carry or have a gun for any defensive purpose.

I do understand the principle of getting a gun that you will carry 100% of the time. The first thing that the guy behind the counter told me when I told him my predicament today was that a snubbie can be a pocket pistol and a 3" 1911 can not. I understand this, and will eventually get a snub nose regardless of which I get first for just such an occasion. I am just not a fan of pocket carry. I'm well settled in to a high-rise OWB to start with, until I prove to myself that it is really not feasible. Plenty of guys carry a full size 1911, and I'm going to have to change my wardrobe around the gun anyway. I am a bit worried about weight, but, as they say, it's all about a good belt and holster.

A G36 was in consideration, as it's lighter than the 1911, but dimensions are really close. The Kimber I handled today was downight tiny, pretty much the same size as the 642, give or take, if a bit more square, and the Commander size G.I. looked plenty concealable as well. I'm 6'2" 175, so I have plenty of options.

Carry gun and method are inevitably a case of trial and error. I'm sure the snub nose will be a better first buy, as I'll get one either way, the DAO trigger will force me to work at being a better shooter, and it's smaller/lighter.

I'm glad you guys are backing me up on this, I'm just really in love with the 1911s and was hoping someone would back me up on that ;-)

 

[93PT92]

Yeah, I'm well aware of the Glock/XD/etc options. If I were going that direction, it would be a Sig 239 first, then a PPS, then an XDSC or G26/36. Slimmer is better. 1911 just appeals to me, and like I said, if I'm not getting the 1911, it's going to be a 642/LCR at first. Same deal of simple manual of arms, only simpler and I always have more faith in a revolver over a semi. Capacity is not an issue. Slimness is, thus the lean towards single stacks.

 

[Cards81fan]

Just wish to point out that if you go the 239 route, it is alloy-framed, single stack, and not perceptibly smaller in any dimension than a Glock 19. I like SIGs well and good, but the 239 not a winner in my mind. It offers an advantage in no category.

Glock 19:

LENGTH 174 mm / 6.85 in.
HEIGHT 127 mm / 5.00 in.
WIDTH 30 mm / 1.18 in.


239:
Overall Length 6.6 in
Overall Height 5.1 in
Overall Width 1.2 in

 

[93PT92]

Yeah, I've handled and fired a 19 with decent success, and you're probably right, I just prefer Sigs, and they don't have much else to offer in the g19 size bracket. Appreciate the response, but I don't want this getting too off topic.

 

[93PT92]

Summary

Basically, if anyone can make an argument FOR the 1911, either a 3" or a commander sized, please post it. The revolver is the more "logical" choice in my mind, but the 1911 feels better and I think I'd tend to want to take it to the range more, as opposed to shooting the requisite monthly allotment out of a revolver and then switching to my 92 for fun shooting. I'd probably do something similar with the 45 because of ammo cost, but I'd bet I'd shoot a 1911 more, and could train on a 22/45 and have the same grip angle a a closer manual of arms to a 1911 than a revolver.

 

[yeti]

I carry a Colt Commander, it carries fine, it's as easy to carry as any other mid sized auto. It's not to heavy, it's not to big, it carries just fine. I prefer the Commander and it really isn't any harder to carry than any other auto. What ever you choose you are going to make some compromise, no one can tell you what is best for you, you have to figure that out for yourself. A snubbie in the pocket is comfortable, a 1911 on your hip is comforting. Good luck choosing.


When I take it off I still have my 442 in my right pocket, I don't know what that says, the 1911 is a great 8 to 10 hour a day gun, the 442... it's just always there. I guess if I could only keep one it would be the Commander, but I wouldn't be happy the 649 is just a touch to heavy to replace it with.

 

[93PT92]

One of the primary reasons for this post was reading a thread on one of the 1911 forums titled "What do you carry when you can't carry your 1911", and like 75% of the responses were snubnose revolvers. I guess this is really an invalid thread, I'll definitely have to figure it out for myself, and I'll definitely end up with one of each eventually.

Thank you all for the prompt responses, and if anyone has anything to add, please feel free.

 

[Nushif]

So here's my experience with both 1911's and a Snubbie...

I own right now and carry (depending on my pants and mood) either an LCR or a 1911 3 inch.

Let me tell you right now that in my experience the snubnnose revolver is just that tad bit easier to conceal and that 1011 9,, 3 inch gun is well ... about as powerful and has more ammunition.

That being said there is no real answer to the subcompact vs. snubnose question other than what your mood is at the time.

Get both and have fun with either. 8)

 

[shockwave]

It's easier to carry, you won't leave it behind when it's hot, you are dressing lighter, etc. It's there when you need it.

Oro is on the money. You might want to re-approach this question from the viewpoint of HD vs CCW. Some people have to press one gun into both roles. In such cases they'll have a good CCW but a lesser home-defense weapon, or vice versa. If you try too hard to split the difference, you'll have a gun that's not optimal for either duty.

So consider which is most important to you and then find the gun that fills that role. You're obviously very young, so you have plenty of time to make enough money to buy all the guns you want. There's no rush here. You are not likely to need a CCW for street combat ever, so I'd put the priority on the HD gun. You like 1911s so get a full-size model and have fun learning to shoot and maintain it. Get a high-quality snubbie or semi-auto later for carry.

Whatever guns you select, you need to be able to shoot them well, and you'll need years of practice to develop the skills, marksmanship, and attitude necessary to deploy them effectively. A full-size gun and participation in IDPA or IPSC competitions will serve you better than a DAO lightweight revolver right out of the gate.

 

[jad0110]

First off, I own both a 1911 and numerous revolvers. Though I love the 1911 platform and carried my 5" steel 1911 often, I've always prefered carrying revolvers by a small margin. But I haven't been carrying the 1911 lately as it has developed reliability issues. I'll be returning it to Springfield Armory when I have a chance. 1911s can be very reliable, but they can be finicky too. But what do you expect when you have dozens of different companies all making them a little differently?

I have been shooting a bit, but not a ton of trigger time. I plan on getting a 22 before either of these and shooting at least twice a month for a year before I feel qualified to carry or have a gun for any defensive purpose.

Good man, looks like you are on the right track.

I am a bit worried about weight, but, as they say, it's all about a good belt and holster.

Unless you have back, hip or knee problems, you are thinking right about the gun belt quality holster. They do make weight disappear, I from time-to-time carry a 4" S&W Model 28 Highway Patrolman (probably weighs more than a 5" 1911) with no problems other than the fact that the large grip frame can be tricky to conceal, but wardrobe solves that.

I am just not a fan of pocket carry.

Honestly, if you are not going to pocket carry, I'd pass on the flyweights like the 642 and LCR and go straight to an all steel gun. And I say this as a 642 owner, but I own it strictly as a pocket gun. If you are going to carry OWB with a good belt and holster, you really won't feel the difference except when shooting, and I can say with a high degree of certainty that you'll like shooting a bit bigger all steel revolver (snub or not) much more than the really tiny snubs.

Ruger's SP101 with 3 1/16" barrel might make an excellent option. You can find them new or used.

In the used only category, you have the Colt Detective Special. They are getting expensive and harder to find, but their are still plenty out there. Only drawback is finding a qualified gunsmith to repair them should that need arise, and repairs are generally more costly than other makes.

Also in the used only category are S&W K Frames (snubs or 3"+). K frames have a reputation for being excellent handling, natural pointing guns for most folks, right up their with 1911s, HiPowers and Single Action Army platforms. And the round butt models in particular are surprisingly easy to conceal, depending on what stocks you slap on it. 38 Special K frames can still be found for $250 - $400, but .357s start at $400 and can approach $600, depending on barrel length (shorter barrels fetching more $$$).

Here are a few examples. All are easy to carry with quality gear, regardless of barrel length.

S&W Model 15-2 (1965), square butt, adjustable sights, 2" 38 Special ($379 in early '09):





S&W Model 15-3 (1969), square butt ,adjustable sights, 4" 38 Special ($309 in Apr '09):





S&W Model 66-1 (1980), round butt, adjustable sights, 2.5" 357 Mag ($430 in Jan '10):





S&W Model 13-3 (1982), round butt, fixed sights, 3" 357 Mag ($450 in fall of '09):





Another option are the Ruger Six Series revolvers, including the Security Six (adj sights, square butt), Police Service Six (fixed sights, square butt) and Speed Six (fixed sights, round butt). Most frequently they were made in .357 Magnum, but some were sold in .38 Special only and a smaller number were sold in 9mm. Very similar in size to the S&W K Frame, they handle and point very similarly. But they are more durable and cost less, though generally the actions are not nearly as smooth or crisp as S&Ws.

I paid $275 for this 4" Police Service Six .357 in Oct '09. It carries as easily as my K Frames and hits right where I point it.

 

[93PT92]

My plan until I can afford a 22 is to restore my PT92 and prove it's reliability. Replace all the springs with Wolfs and the locking block with a Beretta 3rd gen. That will be my HD gun, probably backed up with a 12 gauge down the road. I'll probably also use that for IDPA once I get enough practice in and possibly take a few handgun courses.

the SP101 is also on my short list, I was just thinking the lightest, smallest revolver I could shoot well and train on regularly to start with, just to ensure I can carry the maximum amount of time. Maybe it would be better to get a 2-3" SP101, but I guess it would be nice to have the option to pocket carry for some situations.

So it looks like I should start down the revolver road first, and leave my options open for a 1911. I do really like the 3" models, but I'm not at all opposed to a commander size. I'm just not a fan of the full size models, personal preference.

Thanks again for all the responses guys, keep 'em coming!

 

[93PT92]

Oh, and that's a beautiful wheelgun collection! I really like the 15-2 and 66-1. I prefer blued/black/etc in autos, but stainless revolvers look soooo good to my eye!

 

[93PT92]

And renting all of these is definitely on my to-do list. I have a checklist of guns I feel are essential to shoot and handle to get a good grip on my options.

Gun's I've fired:
Glock 19
Taurus 609
Taurus PT92
Sig P229

Guns I've handled:
EDIT: Glock 26
Glock 36
Glock 39
Ruger P95
Ruger LCP
3-4" 1911s
LCR
642
FNP9

 

[arizona98tj]

I have a hard time understanding why there has to be a differentiation between the handgun used for CCW and HD. Is your CCW gun not good enough for HD duty? If not, then why the heck are you betting your life on it while you are out of your house? You are much more vulnerable outside of your home.

My go to gun for HD is the one on my hip.....the same that was out and about all day long with me as my CCW gun. Yes, I could come home, take off my CCW gun, swap it out for another one from the safe, and then holster it up for carry around the house....but why? You might certainly have another pistol or two stashed in the house, a shotgun in the hall closet, etc.....but those would be backup guns for the one on your hip.

 

[John Parker]

Usually the CCW gun is smaller and hides a bit better. I use my Glock 19 as a carry gun, and my 17 is the house gun.

 

[Harvey]

1911 just appeals to me, ...

It seems to me, PT, that you'll not be satisfied until you own the venerable 1911.

You may want to consider purchasing a good basic 'brand name' 1911 in the Commander or Officer's length and, over time, trick it out the way you see fit. There are just soooo many great ways to personalize the 1911 platform. And with your height, weight and frame size, finding a well-made OWB holster for concealment should be no problem, either.

So screw the DA/DAO snubbie. You'll never be satisfied.

 

[9mmepiphany]

i think the idea of getting a .22 for practice is excellent and neither the S&W m-642 nor the 3" 1911 are great learning guns...not great starter CCW guns. i've carried both in the past (the 642 as a BUG for many years) and think i speak with some practical experience.

the J-frame is a hard gun to correctly learn the DA trigger with due to it's small gripframe, coil spring mainspring/geometry...especially in stock form. the Ruger LCR has greatly improved trigger geometry over either the 642 or the SP-101...but it does it with a longer trigger stroke.

the 3" 1911 is the worst form of the 1911 to start with. while all current production 1911s require more maintenance than more modern designs...like the Sig, H&K or Glock...any 1911 with a barrel shorter than 4.25" will have a narrower reliability window. this is only accentuated with a price ceiling of $600.

if you decide to go the 1911 route, a Commander sized Springfield would be a good basic starter gun...you'll need a add a good holster and "gun belt"

the gun that has replaced my M-642 as an everywhere gun is the Kahr CW9. they are a quality gun with innovative engineering and an excellent trigger. here's a picture of one compared to a Springfield EMP for an idea of size (don't confuse the EMP of a 3" .45ACP 1911...the timing is different)

 

[167]

What is wrong with using the gun you have for CCW? Understandably it is bigger, will be harder to conceal etc. But it is the gun you know, the gun you shoot/train with, and if nothing else will help you understand exactly what you do or do not want in a carry gun after you get a little experience carrying a gun behind you. I think you would be better served just sticking with it for now, and after a couple months of carrying it, maybe decide on another gun.

I would also suggest adding the S&W M&P series handguns to your list of guns to test drive if they aren't already there.

 

[jeepguy]

when i was trying to figure out what i wanted to carry a small subcompact that i didnt like to shoot or a compact that i did like to shoot. even though i had other full size handguns to goto the range with i wanted something i would like to take to the range & carry. so i went with a commander size 1911 with a alloy frame. i bought the kimber pro carry 4" & i love it. it has become my favorite handgun. i liked it so much i bought a 9mm pro carry, mostly for the cheeper ammo. for me the commander size alloy frame 1911 is the perfect carry gun. it is alittle large but i enjoy her so much at the range its worth it.

 

[KodiakBeer]

I've been carrying a Kimber aluminum compact for 13 years. It's plenty light enough to carry, and slimmer than any Glock or double stack pistol. It's an easy carry, most of the year.

Check out the Compact "Officers" size rather than the Commander size 1911's. And look for an aluminum frame.

In summer you'll probably find yourself (just like most people) shopping for something even more compact - a .380 or very small 9mm. Even a J frame is pretty hard to conceal in summer.