Riomouse911
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Glick 43X MOS… now I need a dot to take advantage of the MOS slide cut.
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1911 style pistol for CCW?
- Thread starter Ralph III
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Reloadron
Contributing Member
Choice of a carry gun is just going to vary person to person. My real simple advice is carry what works for you or whatever trips your trigger. Several years ago a friend needed money and I got a real good deal on the below pictured Kimber. The little gun came as pictured.
I planned to just sell it off till I started shooting it. Never a stoppage one and totally reliable. First Kimber I have owned and I have a collection of 1911 guns. I liked it so much I bought an all stainless version. I carry either cocked and locked which just works for me. I seldom carry the extra magazines. I just became very comfortable with this gun and the accuracy out of a 3" barrel .45 ACP surprised me. Works for me anyway.
Ron
I planned to just sell it off till I started shooting it. Never a stoppage one and totally reliable. First Kimber I have owned and I have a collection of 1911 guns. I liked it so much I bought an all stainless version. I carry either cocked and locked which just works for me. I seldom carry the extra magazines. I just became very comfortable with this gun and the accuracy out of a 3" barrel .45 ACP surprised me. Works for me anyway.
Ron
I did shortly carry a government model for but I wouldn't suggest an all metal pistol for daily ccw. If gets old pretty quickly. I carried a usp 40 compact with lem trigger for some years. A cz p07 does the trick as well. Both pistols much more reliable than a 1911 under varying conditions.
Also I have a Glock gadget on my g20.2 that makes holstering a bit safer.
My opinion is that 1911 style pistols are for enthusiasts so take the above with a grain of salt
Also I have a Glock gadget on my g20.2 that makes holstering a bit safer.
My opinion is that 1911 style pistols are for enthusiasts so take the above with a grain of salt
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OP
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Ralph III
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Hello Everyone,
I was the OP for this thread and I didn't realize there were so may follow up replies. I haven't been able to read all of the replies but I'd like to respond to a few things.
1. One poster stated that the Israelis didn't carry condition 3 out of safety concerns and that they stopped carrying that way over 15 years ago? Unless someone can show me something in print that is absolutely untrue. First, there were/are highly trained Israeli units that carry/carried in condition 1. Much of the Israeli army however is made up of very young recruits and they are required to carry condition 3 for safety reasons.
I've read numerous other accounts supporting that from those in the know but this video from one year ago by an IDF and Special Forces Instructor should be sufficient....HERE
2. I inquired about the three carry options for the 1911 style pistol (1, 2, 3). I've never owned a 1911 but if I did and I carried it, I stated that I'd probably carry it in condition 2. Meaning a bullet in the chamber, hammer down, with safety off. I'd be inclined to carry it this way from having shot many DA/SA revolvers and semi auto's. So it's natural to cock the hammer to fire.
A few posters responded that that wasn't safe because you wouldn't recommend lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber? What does that have to do with carrying in condition 2? If the hammer were cocked and I wanted to unload the weapon, then I'd just engage the safety first? Anyhow, maybe they misunderstood what I was saying, otherwise am I missing something with carrying a 1911 in condition 2?
Thanks,
Ralph
I was the OP for this thread and I didn't realize there were so may follow up replies. I haven't been able to read all of the replies but I'd like to respond to a few things.
1. One poster stated that the Israelis didn't carry condition 3 out of safety concerns and that they stopped carrying that way over 15 years ago? Unless someone can show me something in print that is absolutely untrue. First, there were/are highly trained Israeli units that carry/carried in condition 1. Much of the Israeli army however is made up of very young recruits and they are required to carry condition 3 for safety reasons.
I've read numerous other accounts supporting that from those in the know but this video from one year ago by an IDF and Special Forces Instructor should be sufficient....HERE
2. I inquired about the three carry options for the 1911 style pistol (1, 2, 3). I've never owned a 1911 but if I did and I carried it, I stated that I'd probably carry it in condition 2. Meaning a bullet in the chamber, hammer down, with safety off. I'd be inclined to carry it this way from having shot many DA/SA revolvers and semi auto's. So it's natural to cock the hammer to fire.
A few posters responded that that wasn't safe because you wouldn't recommend lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber? What does that have to do with carrying in condition 2? If the hammer were cocked and I wanted to unload the weapon, then I'd just engage the safety first? Anyhow, maybe they misunderstood what I was saying, otherwise am I missing something with carrying a 1911 in condition 2?
Thanks,
Ralph
trackskippy
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The safety on a 1911 can only be put on, when the gun is cocked.
Once the safety is on, you can't unload the gun, as it locks the slide.
Lowering the hammer on a loaded round isnt the best thing to do, even if you are careful. Depending on what type of grip safety is on the 1911, you may not be able to readily thumb cock it either. Plus, you have to train to make sure you thumb cock it on the draw to the point of being able to do it without thinking about doing it. Just another step to slow things down, and make it more dangerous to you.
The safest way to carry it, is to carry it with a round in the chamber, cocked, with the safety on. Id also verify that the grip safety works, before trusting it, and carry the gun in a proper holster.
Id suggest getting a hold of a 1911 and spend some time with it and learn how they work and how to use it. That would make things a lot easier on everyone, and you would have a better understanding of things.
If youre not sure, or willing to do that, Id suggest you find something else. And whatever that may be, youll need to do the same thing with whatever it might be as well.
Once the safety is on, you can't unload the gun, as it locks the slide.
Lowering the hammer on a loaded round isnt the best thing to do, even if you are careful. Depending on what type of grip safety is on the 1911, you may not be able to readily thumb cock it either. Plus, you have to train to make sure you thumb cock it on the draw to the point of being able to do it without thinking about doing it. Just another step to slow things down, and make it more dangerous to you.
The safest way to carry it, is to carry it with a round in the chamber, cocked, with the safety on. Id also verify that the grip safety works, before trusting it, and carry the gun in a proper holster.
Id suggest getting a hold of a 1911 and spend some time with it and learn how they work and how to use it. That would make things a lot easier on everyone, and you would have a better understanding of things.
If youre not sure, or willing to do that, Id suggest you find something else. And whatever that may be, youll need to do the same thing with whatever it might be as well.
JTQ
Member
That is Condition 2. You have to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber to get to Condition 2.
To get a 1911 to Condition 2, you have to defeat all the safeties on the gun, and then pull the trigger on a loaded gun.
It's your gun, and you can do whatever you want, but I don't think there is any professional trainer that teaches Condition 2 carry.
OP
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Ralph III
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Hey JTQ and Trackskippy,
Y'all didn't read my original post as I don't own a 1911 style pistol. I was making an inquiry on behalf of a buddy who recently purchased and carries a 1911. Although I think I have convinced him to switch to a different pistol for ccw purposes. I personally carry a striker fired Kahr.
You always load and unload a gun in a safe place with the weapon pointing in a safe direction. So I'd be inclined to chamber a round and then drop the hammer on a 1911. That's how the gun would remain and that's how I'd most likely carry it. There are many times over my 50 years of shooting that I've had to drop a hammer on a weapon that had a round chambered in it out of necessity. Lever action rifles and revolvers are perfect examples. So it's a matter of doing it safely and in a safe place and direction.
I'm curious to know what you do, for those of you who carry Locked and Cocked, when you put your weapon away for the night? Because it would be much easier for a child to disengage a safety vs cocking the hammer? This would be another reason I'd be inclined to carry a 1911 in condition 2 or even condition 3.
FYI. I am not judging here! I have no problem with people who carry Cocked and Locked as long as they are highly familiar with their weapon and understand the safety features. I've just given my opinion while also trying to understand yours.
God Bless,
Ralph
Y'all didn't read my original post as I don't own a 1911 style pistol. I was making an inquiry on behalf of a buddy who recently purchased and carries a 1911. Although I think I have convinced him to switch to a different pistol for ccw purposes. I personally carry a striker fired Kahr.
Oh, that's interesting. Is that the case even with modern 1911 style pistols because I'd consider that a poor design by today's standards. I owned a Beretta 92 FS for a long time and one thing I liked about that pistol was the de-cocking feature. Otherwise, if I owned a 1911 style I'd simply drop the magazine and then rack the slide to unload the weapon as typical.
That's not correct. The safest way to carry any weapon is condition 3 which typically entails (safety on, hammer down, empty chamber). You can never have an accidental discharge of a weapon that is not loaded (chambered). That was the entire purpose of advocating condition 3 in Israel and as others practiced for a long time. The problem is, it leans heavily toward safety whereas condition 1 leans more toward speed.
Yes, but that doesn't make condition 2 an unsafe Carry method for a 1911 style pistol, which was my point!
You always load and unload a gun in a safe place with the weapon pointing in a safe direction. So I'd be inclined to chamber a round and then drop the hammer on a 1911. That's how the gun would remain and that's how I'd most likely carry it. There are many times over my 50 years of shooting that I've had to drop a hammer on a weapon that had a round chambered in it out of necessity. Lever action rifles and revolvers are perfect examples. So it's a matter of doing it safely and in a safe place and direction.
I'm curious to know what you do, for those of you who carry Locked and Cocked, when you put your weapon away for the night? Because it would be much easier for a child to disengage a safety vs cocking the hammer? This would be another reason I'd be inclined to carry a 1911 in condition 2 or even condition 3.
FYI. I am not judging here! I have no problem with people who carry Cocked and Locked as long as they are highly familiar with their weapon and understand the safety features. I've just given my opinion while also trying to understand yours.
God Bless,
Ralph
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JTQ
Member
This comes up periodically in these discussions - Assuming kids watch TV or movies or watch adults handle guns at some point.
If they pull the trigger and the gun doesn't fire, what do you think their first inclination would be?
Would it be to push a thumb safety down or would it be to cock the hammer?
I suspect it would be more quickly figure out to cock the hammer on a Condition 2 gun rather than disengage the thumb safety on a Condition 1 gun. Given enough time, they'll figure anything out, but a lot of guns have hammers and many need to have them cocked to fire.
JTQ
Member
The key thing here is you don't own a 1911 style pistol, and you came here asking for advice from those that do. Those that do own 1911 style pistols, or other single action semi-auto pistols have told you how they operate them - it is almost universally Condition 1 carry.
As I said above, if it's your gun or your buddies, you and/or he can do whatever you or he want with it, but it is unlikely you would ever find a professionally operated pistol training school that would teach you to carry a 1911 or other single action semi-auto pistol in Condition 2. Under most circumstances it is just not an advantageous mode of carry.
trackskippy
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I read your original; post. I was answering your questions and suggesting you get a 1911 and figure it out, so you understood it, and how it works, so you could educate both yourself and your friend.
The 1911 design is just what it is. Thats why, like anything else you might choose, you have to take the time to learn the gun to know how to be safe and effective with it. The only way to unload a loaded 1911, requires you to take the thumb safety off. Otherwise, you wont be able to unload it. No big deal here, as long as youre safe in your gun handling.
The safest way to carry the 1911 "ready for action", is to carry it in condition 1, cocked and locked. Carrying with an empty chamber, or the hammer down, is not. At least for you. If carrying a loaded gun makes you uncomfortable, then I would suggest finding something else, and leave the guns at home. We will likely all be better off.
Tallball
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I'm more of a revolver guy and prefer to carry them when I can.
I grew up with a SA 22lr revolver.
Cocking the hammer back on a SA revolver is so natural to me that I don't even notice I'm doing it.
Semiautos don't cock the same and are harder for me to manipulate. I wouldn't want to have to count on myself cocking one quickly during an adrenaline rush.
I grew up with a SA 22lr revolver.
Cocking the hammer back on a SA revolver is so natural to me that I don't even notice I'm doing it.
Semiautos don't cock the same and are harder for me to manipulate. I wouldn't want to have to count on myself cocking one quickly during an adrenaline rush.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
quote by Trackskippy.....
My oldest 1911 pistol was manufactured in 1914 by Colt. Since the beginning all Model of 1911 pistols have required the pistol to be cocked before the safety can be engaged. It's simply that way by design. If any new designs have changed this I am not aware of it.
Mechanics of the Model of 1911 aside for a moment. When anyone makes the decision to carry a gun they are also making the decision to bear the full responsibility for that gun, the model and caliber matter not. That gun has an accidental or negligent discharge the person carrying it is the responsible party. You carry a model 1911 in a condition which works for you, the person responsible for the gun. You carry in a condition which works for you and you are comfortable with. Is the 1911 dangerous to carry is a pretty decent read on the subject.
My first learning experience with the Model of 1911 .45 ACP was Marine Corps boot camp circa 1969. We were taught the Model 1911 had three safeties. The thumb safety, the grip safety and the half cock notch safety. No clue if the latter is still considered a type of safety or if new model 1911A1 guns all have that feature.
Personally I carry a 1911 gun and posted image of it earlier in the thread. I carry it condition 1 and I am comfortable with that, it works for me. People should choose what works for them as to model and caliber.
Ron
quote RalphIII
My oldest 1911 pistol was manufactured in 1914 by Colt. Since the beginning all Model of 1911 pistols have required the pistol to be cocked before the safety can be engaged. It's simply that way by design. If any new designs have changed this I am not aware of it.
Mechanics of the Model of 1911 aside for a moment. When anyone makes the decision to carry a gun they are also making the decision to bear the full responsibility for that gun, the model and caliber matter not. That gun has an accidental or negligent discharge the person carrying it is the responsible party. You carry a model 1911 in a condition which works for you, the person responsible for the gun. You carry in a condition which works for you and you are comfortable with. Is the 1911 dangerous to carry is a pretty decent read on the subject.
My first learning experience with the Model of 1911 .45 ACP was Marine Corps boot camp circa 1969. We were taught the Model 1911 had three safeties. The thumb safety, the grip safety and the half cock notch safety. No clue if the latter is still considered a type of safety or if new model 1911A1 guns all have that feature.
Personally I carry a 1911 gun and posted image of it earlier in the thread. I carry it condition 1 and I am comfortable with that, it works for me. People should choose what works for them as to model and caliber.
Ron
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Ralph III
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Thanks for all of the input guys and no need to get bent out of shape! It's called a discussion.
I asked how the majority of you carry your 1911 and you answered that. I then inquired as to why you carry in that fashion and for you to defend that and you did. I had already considered the answers because they are all quite reasonable. I however wanted to hear it from you and for you to give a defense given you actually own and/or carry a 1911.
I don't own a 1911 style pistol but I grew up with revolvers and DA/SA pistols. So, like Tallball, it's quite natural for me to cock a hammer to fire and I can do so very quickly and accurately. Whereas, I have difficulty manipulating pistol thumb safeties and I find them unnatural. So I assumed that condition 2 would be a viable carry option for some folks.
As for myself, I carry a striker fired Kahr 9mm that has a revolver type trigger system which makes it inherently safe. This is the pistol that I often recommend to people who may consider carrying. I would never recommend a 1911 or any pistol with a safety for conceal carry. Because that requires an extra step and it's quite possible a person might initially forget to take the safety off in a high stress situation. That could cost them their life. I've actually seen video of such and it's why I chose the ccw firearm that I did. It's also why I do not recommend pistols with an external safety for carry purposes.
I think the 1911 style pistol is a great gun. I'd just never recommend it for conceal carry unless you have a significant amount of experience with it to the point that it's operation is second nature to you. Otherwise, its exactly as Ron stated "I carry it condition 1 and I am comfortable with that, it works for me. People should choose what works for them as to model and caliber".
Take care,
Ralph
I asked how the majority of you carry your 1911 and you answered that. I then inquired as to why you carry in that fashion and for you to defend that and you did. I had already considered the answers because they are all quite reasonable. I however wanted to hear it from you and for you to give a defense given you actually own and/or carry a 1911.
Well that's unnecessary and you're speaking from a point of complete ignorance. I've carried loaded weapons for nearly 50 years with a strong emphasis on gun safety. Which includes helping with numerous on-going college studies, one by John Hopkins, attempting to create solutions to help reduce gun related injuries. That's why I often challenge folks to defend their views. Because that ultimately helps me to defend your views as well.
I don't own a 1911 style pistol but I grew up with revolvers and DA/SA pistols. So, like Tallball, it's quite natural for me to cock a hammer to fire and I can do so very quickly and accurately. Whereas, I have difficulty manipulating pistol thumb safeties and I find them unnatural. So I assumed that condition 2 would be a viable carry option for some folks.
As for myself, I carry a striker fired Kahr 9mm that has a revolver type trigger system which makes it inherently safe. This is the pistol that I often recommend to people who may consider carrying. I would never recommend a 1911 or any pistol with a safety for conceal carry. Because that requires an extra step and it's quite possible a person might initially forget to take the safety off in a high stress situation. That could cost them their life. I've actually seen video of such and it's why I chose the ccw firearm that I did. It's also why I do not recommend pistols with an external safety for carry purposes.
I think the 1911 style pistol is a great gun. I'd just never recommend it for conceal carry unless you have a significant amount of experience with it to the point that it's operation is second nature to you. Otherwise, its exactly as Ron stated "I carry it condition 1 and I am comfortable with that, it works for me. People should choose what works for them as to model and caliber".
Take care,
Ralph
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jar
Contributing Member
I am stunned that there is anyone out there that thinks cocking the hammer on any double action revolver should be ever used other than for single very long distance shots at either a target or when hunting an animal.
trackskippy
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You quoted me out of context.
"The safest way to carry the 1911 "ready for action", is to carry it in condition 1, cocked and locked. Carrying with an empty chamber, or the hammer down, is not. At least for you."
"If carrying a loaded gun makes you uncomfortable, then I would suggest finding something else, and leave the guns at home. We will likely all be better off."
Perhaps I should have broke to another paragraph after that first part.
Regardless, what I said is still correct. Carrying in any other condition, save in a hoster, safety off, puts you at risk, because the gun is not in a condition to fire. You would need to take additional steps to get the gun into that condition, and most likely, at a highly stressful time with your attention elsewhere.
The second part came because you said that condition 3 was the safest way to carry the gun. Its not, if youre carrying the gun for serious use.
You might want to reread Tallballs post on thumb cocking too.
I dont see how you can recommend anything, one way or another if you have no experience with it. Even an opinion is worthless, with nothing to base things on.
I would still strongly recommend you get a 1911, and put in the time and effort to figure it out, and then youll know, exactly what is what, and why you would do things a certain way. At least that way, you will actually know.
crstrode
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It took a long time to see a "Get a Ruger" post. The P90DC is one of my all-time favorites. Even as a one-time nationally ranked 1911 competition IPSC shooter, it is an obvious choice for ease of operation, safety, and operator comfort - especially for the non-tacticool ranks
But get this: I usually carry a revolver. Most likely because I no longer spend my meager resources on 1000 rounds of practice ammo each week.
Go figure.
crstrode
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Then there is the Series 80 380 Government model . . . It has no grip safety at all. After carrying one for a while I discovered the magazine release tended to release itself now and then. On a positive note, it would still fire (once) without the magazine
If I could only find a stiffer mag release spring, it might be a better EDC.
I’m having trouble reconciling that clicking off a thumb safety is somehow harder to remember / to do than thumb cocking a hammer under pressure.
Almost all the people I know who carry perform some kind of chamber check after loading prior to carrying. That is another illustration of the issues with carrying Condition 3.
As far as what the historical military carry modes were, they didn’t use pistols as primary arms, and have had sometimes odd policies on them.
Almost all the people I know who carry perform some kind of chamber check after loading prior to carrying. That is another illustration of the issues with carrying Condition 3.
As far as what the historical military carry modes were, they didn’t use pistols as primary arms, and have had sometimes odd policies on them.
This thread has been going on for 5 pages and has morphed from the original request into further detailed discussions.
This makes the point of the thread a bit confusing for someone later reading the thread. It would be better if more explanations of features and the nature of carry be continued in a separate thread.
With that in mind, I'm closing this thread. If folks would like to continue further discussions on topics that have come up, please start another thread
This makes the point of the thread a bit confusing for someone later reading the thread. It would be better if more explanations of features and the nature of carry be continued in a separate thread.
With that in mind, I'm closing this thread. If folks would like to continue further discussions on topics that have come up, please start another thread
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