1911 style pistol for CCW?

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Glock is far from the only striker mechanism out there, and many are almost just simple sear releases. No thanks.

99% of my safety concerns with carry platforms do not involve "once in hand" considerations.
Most striker fired pistols incorporate two internal safety mechanisms, which mean that a "simple sear release" is not the only thing preventing these guns from going off.

#1. There is a firing pin block, usually in the form of a spring loaded plunger, physically obstructing the path of the firing pin when the trigger is not pulled. If the sear were to break or slip off for some reason (other than actually pulling the trigger) the firing pin will be safely stopped before it reaches the primer.

#2 The trigger has a built in inertial safety, usually in the form of a two-part scissor style insert in the middle of the trigger, which prevents the trigger from being able to pull itself via its own inertia (or the trigger bar's inertia) from a sudden rearward impact.

Combine these two systems, and you have an extremely safe mechanical device which is only going to fire if you pull the trigger.
 
I dont know why people get all bent out of shape about the different types here. They are all safe, as long as the carrier is safe with them, and they all take about the same amount of time to learn to carry/shoot them. The only thing really different about them, is the way they work.

It doesnt matter what you pick, if you arent well acquainted and very familiar with what you choose (that's to the point of not having to think about working them), that gun "can be" just as dangerous as the other guns some people swear are more dangerous.

But this isnt about the gun, its simply about the people using them, and whether or not they are willing to be safe and competent with them. Unless maybe there is something mechanically wrong with them, the guns are not going off by themselves. ;)

Personally, I see the thinking that added manual safeties make the gun safer, is backward thinking. I also think too much emphasis and blind trust is placed on them, like they are some sort of magic talisman that will think for you, especially by people who arent willing to take the time and effort to learn to deal with the gun. They wont.

I think if you learn on something like a Glock, youre more likely going to be more careful in how you handle the gun (any gun), than if you learn of something else, that requires even more attention from you, and you were told that by flipping a lever, the gun will be safe and you dont have to worry beyond that.

The bottom line here is, you know the Glock is always ready to go "if" the trigger is tripped, and you deal with and treat it accordingly. The other types of guns, at what level are you not treating them the same as the Glock? And why arent you at any given second, added safeties or not?
 
As usual, an OP will ask a question regarding a single action pistol with a manual safety and how to safely and successfully operate a gun so equipped ...
Hello All,
A friend's wife recently purchased a Kimber Micro 9 ...
For CCW purposes:

1) Do you carry your 1911 "cocked and locked"?
2) Do you leave the safety off; with one in the chamber and plan to cock the hammer for the first shot?
3) Do you leave the safety off; and plan on manually racking the slide to chamber the first round and cock the hammer, such as the Israelis do?
Inevitably we'll find our way to "Get a Glock". Geez.
 
Well, obviously, Glock does seem to be a trigger for some, even if its just "mentioned" in conversation. :)

Maybe if people actually bothered to learn and shoot some things beyond what little they seem to know, they might actually learn that they are all very much similar, and not the scary things they like to tell you. ;)

And hopefully, they are ALL scary, just not from you handling them. :p
 
Most striker fired pistols incorporate two internal safety mechanisms, which mean that a "simple sear release" is not the only thing preventing these guns from going off.

#1. There is a firing pin block, usually in the form of a spring loaded plunger, physically obstructing the path of the firing pin when the trigger is not pulled. If the sear were to break or slip off for some reason (other than actually pulling the trigger) the firing pin will be safely stopped before it reaches the primer.

#2 The trigger has a built in inertial safety, usually in the form of a two-part scissor style insert in the middle of the trigger, which prevents the trigger from being able to pull itself via its own inertia (or the trigger bar's inertia) from a sudden rearward impact.

Combine these two systems, and you have an extremely safe mechanical device which is only going to fire if you pull the trigger.

Yes- I am fully aware of the secondary safety features supplied on many striker guns and agree, for the most part, that they have a good record for not firing if dropped (looking at you P320) or pure mechanical failure.

However, none of that has ANY relevance to discharge caused by unintentional trigger impingment from non-finger bodies. In that area of concern, an unlocked & grip safety pinned Series 80 1911 has little to distinguish it's trigger from many popular striker platforms.

Mr. Murphy and his of bag dirty tricks don't care about you training regimin, tactical mentality, or kydex wonder holster. He can find a way to fundamentally change your life forever, and giving him a head start with gun featuring a standard condition short-stroke / low-weight trigger versus a full-stroke / full-weight trigger (traditional DA or DAO) is not a sound decision, in my opinion. It only needs to happen ONCE.
 
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And that can be with any one of them.

True, but why make the chain of events easier to fully complete?

As an example, it takes way more effort for that wayward seatbelt buckle, chapstick or jacket cinch to fully cycle a decocked carry condition Beretta 92 trigger versus activating an energized striker carry condition P320 trigger.
 
I think youre best bet then, is to stop playing with guns, and other scary things. ;)

Unsurprising standard response to such discussions. My assessment is only based off being a mechanical engineer, professional safety and risk manager (in energetics), Active Duty Army O3 Veteran, and being involved in defensive handgun carry for almost 35 years (since age 13). But yes, I am scared of my own shadow... o_O
 
Unsurprising standard response to such discussions. My assessment is only based off being a mechanical engineer, professional safety and risk manager (in energetics), Active Duty Army O3 Veteran, and being involved in defensive handgun carry for almost 35 years (since age 13). But yes, I am scared of my own shadow... o_O
Everything has risk. Those who choose to not educate themselves and train not to be an issue, are a lot more likely to have problems, than those who dont. Doesnt matter what the tool is. I would think a safety and risk manager would understand training, especially safety training, its benefits and why its done.

Youre response is basically an endless negative response, to anything and everything. And it does sound like there is some fear and/or lack of experience involved there, by your constant negative responses about things like striker fired guns. The only way the gun is the problem here, is if you are a problem with the gun.

And if that is the case, then you wont likely be safe with ANY gun.

And as I said earlier, a 1911 is not a beginner's gun, added safties or not. ;)
 
There is something to be said for repeatable reliability :)

Yup them old battle rattle, loose as a goose, worn out 1911's I carried while in the Army were always reliable. The 1911A1 I carried during Desert Storm worked just fine while I was clearing bunkers.

And outside of the military, I have always carried my 1911's and similar single action pistols in condition 1 "cocked and locked"
 
When I carried a 1911, it was in condition 1 (loaded, cocked, thumb safety engaged). I only stopped carrying a 1911 because of the weight of the steel frame. I shot them so often I don't known when the thumb safety comes off during the draw, it just does by the time the sights are on target. The safety goes back on when I am sure I will not need to shoot anything else before I holster it.

Condition 2 gives me the willies, as you have loaded the gun, cocked the hammer, disengaged all the safeties, pulled the trigger and are counting on your thumb not to slip off a hammer not designed for your thumb to manipulate it.

Condition 3 is slow, and prone to make a mistake under a high pressure situation.
 
Maybe if people actually bothered to learn and shoot some things beyond what little they seem to know, they might actually learn that they are all very much similar, and not the scary things they like to tell you. ;)
Perhaps we can assume the OP, and his friend, already know how to work a Glock, because they didn't ask how one would carry a Glock, but rather how to carry a single action auto with a manual safety.

Maybe the OP is trying to help his friend learn something beyond the little they seem to know, maybe we could help him in that endeavor.
 
Why is it when you simply say "Glock" everything else you said seems to be completely ignored and it just becomes a bash fest focused on Glocks?

Hope they get some real help, beyond the internet, and they figure it out. Reading about things is a good start, but hands on training and experience, is the only way to really learn anything and know whats what.
 
Everything has risk. Those who choose to not educate themselves and train not to be an issue, are a lot more likely to have problems, than those who dont. Doesnt matter what the tool is. I would think a safety and risk manager would understand training, especially safety training, its benefits and why its done.

Youre response is basically an endless negative response, to anything and everything. And it does sound like there is some fear and/or lack of experience involved there, by your constant negative responses about things like striker fired guns. The only way the gun is the problem here, is if you are a problem with the gun.

And if that is the case, then you wont likely be safe with ANY gun.

And as I said earlier, a 1911 is not a beginner's gun, added safties or not. ;)

In risk managment, you optimize equipment first, then user training. Can you fundamentally engineer all risk out of something like a firearm? Absolutely not. Can you design a firearm without features that make it more susceptible to AD/ND? Absolutely yes.

With the various trigger systems, you are operating out in the corner margin of a risk assessment matrix, with many users never experiencing a negative event in decades (or a lifetime) of shooting and/or defensive carry. For them, and people who interact with them, what they have been doing seems perfectly safe. Is is possible for somebody to spend their entire driving career without wearing a seat belt and never get hurt in an accident? Yes, I have met those type of people personally, and they always credit their skill at driving was what kept them safe. Something to emulate, probably not...

In my opinion, carry of a typical striker trigger simply moves the risk managment assessment for non-finger foreign trigger impingement from "Very Unlikely-Severe Consequence-Moderate Risk" with a DA/DAO/ Positive Safety Locked trigger to "Unlikely-Severe Consequence-High Risk" or potentially "Possible-Severe Consequence-Extreme Risk" depending on the exact pistol and carry situation.

Anyway, everybody makes their own choices, and everybody can critique everybody else's choices, thus the forum continues to propagate.

Have a good day.
 
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If carrying a "cocked and locked" 1911, I would prefer a Series-80 system that is designed to prevent firing pin movement if the weapon is dropped, either landing on its muzzle, or landing on its hammer and breaking the sear interface. The grip safety also provides some redundancy if the thumb safety is inadvertently bumped and something decides to impinge on the trigger.
 
I was referring to "our" ability to reliably thread-drift :)
Not that there is the slightest thing wrong with a clanky old 1911.

I know what you meant but had to give you some trouble.


Now back to being a cranky old vet.... where's my coffee and 1911 dang nab it!!!!!!!
 
I was referring to "our" ability to reliably thread-drift :)
Not that there is the slightest thing wrong with a clanky old 1911.
The 1911 that followed my dad home for his four year all expenses paid tour of North Africa, Italy, the Med and Persian Gulf was so loose it rattle while stuffed in a sock in the back of a dresser drawer.
 
After enough study, I am of the opinion Cult Cocked and Locked created the origin myth that John Browning designed the 1911 to be carried cocked and locked, because they love that single action trigger, and they play quick draw games and want the fastest mode to fire the pistol.

I agree with everything 1911tuner wrote about cocked and locked.


1911: Half-Cock

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/1911-half-cock.249713/

No matter what modern theorists say, there is no doubt that Browning fully intended the half-cock to be the safety position. It was used as such on every other gun Browning ever designed, except those with concealed hammers, and there was usually no other safety. Only military demands caused the installation of the manual and grip safeties on what became the Model 1911.

Those who doubt this can look for a manual safety on an (original design) Winchester 97, Winchester 92, Winchester 94, and Colt dual link autos (except the early sight safety, which didn't last long). On a Browning design, if it had an exposed hammer, the half cock was the safety, and the only safety.

JMB apparently did not suffer fools gladly and believed that the half-cock was all the safety any sensible person needed. Of course he hadn't met our new breed of fools and their greedy lawyers.


Jim


Everything 1911tuner wrote is substantiated in John Browning’s patents and pistol designs to the 1910 and 1911 pistol.


Patent 984,519 J. M. Browning, Firearm,

application filed Feb 17 1910. Patented Feb 14 1911.
Page 7


Heretofore in the pistols of this class, when the hammer was cocked ready for firing, and it became necessary to lower the hammer to the safety position without allowing it to touch the firing pin, it required both hands of the user to accomplish this act, because the trigger had to be pulled with the first finger of the right-hand to release the hammer and the grip-lever had simultaneously to be pressed into the grip to release the trigger for operation, to the keeping of the thumb of the right hand in a horizontal position on the side of the grip. Therefore it was impracticable to also extend the thumb of the right hand, while this hand pressed in the grip-lever and pulled the trigger, upward so as to rest upon the thumb-piece of the hammer and, thus controlling the hammer, to gently lower the same and restrain it from falling and from striking the firing pin, because any attempt to do this would result in loosening the necessary hold upon the grip-lever. Consequently the lowering the hammer had to be performed by the other hand, this is a serious drawback in a military arm, as a soldier and especially a mounted soldier does not in action have both hands free for such use. To overcome this difficulty, I have provided the grip-lever w with projecting nose w2 in rear of its pivot, which stands closely in rear of and below the hammer when cocked, and the hammer is so fitted that it may be drawn rearward somewhat father than to its cocked position. When the hammer is drawn fully back it strikes the nose w2 and, by pressing the same downward, it caused the grip-lever to turn on its pivot forcing the lower portion into the grip, thereby releasing the trigger. By this arrangement the thumb of the hand grasping the grip needs not to be kept at the side of the grip need not to be kept at the side of the grip for pressing in the grip-lever, but the thumb may be applied to the hammer and through the same operate the grip lever to release the trigger, then the trigger may be operated with the first finger of the same hand to release the hammer and finally the thumb, still applied to the hammer, may allow the same to slowly descend to the safety position, without requiring the aid of the other hand. The rearward projecting nose w2 of the grip-lever w below the hammer q and in rear of the pivot pin w1, serves to perform another important function in addition to that of providing the point of contact between the grip lever and the hammer, by means of which the grip lever may be operated to release the trigger by drawing the hammer fully rearward, as hereinbefore described.

I am going to say, the grip safety is of questionable value. From what I read, the Army wanted a grip safety so the pistol would not discharge if dropped, from a horse. This was before they insisted on the "make safe with one hand" requirement, that lead to the thumb safety. The pistol that passed all the tests, the 1910 Colt, did not have a thumb safety, it had the grip safety.

Links and pictures from Sam Laker’s ColtAutos.com

http://www.coltautos.com/default.asp

This is an exceedingly rare pistol, Sam has pictures of serial number 2, and it is not retrofitted for the thumb safety, and this one, serial number 5, is in the original 1910 troop trails configuration.

1910_5.jpg

The M1910 and M1911 pistol were not puked by God from a burning bush on top of Mount Horeb. There is a prior history. This is the M1903 patent picture

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There is no thumb safety, this pistol was made safe by lowering the hammer to the half cock. Also, John Browning designed the 1903 trigger mechanism so when the hammer was at half cock, the slide was fixed in place. That way, you would not jack out a round while holstering the thing. This feature is retained in the series 70 M1911. You can test it, in a series 70, by lowering the hammer to half cock, and trying to rack the slide. You can over ride it, which I assume was intentional, but the resistance is there, and it is not accidental. John Browning put it there. No one ever does this, so guys at the range are amazing when this feature is shown to them.

John Browning designed his pistols to be made safe by lowering the hammer to the half cock. This is the 1905 model, no thumb safety. How do you think they made this pistol safe?

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This is the patent for the M1910 pistol, yes it does not look like the 1910, John Browning is only revealing the features he is patenting.

X8ZzE6Z.jpg

Notice, no thumb safety.

The Army must have thought that lowering the hammer to half cock was too difficult, with one hand on a bucking horsey, they wanted something simpler and more positive. The grip safety, and thumb safety, are only sear blocking safeties. If the sear failures, the hammer will fall, regardless whether either safety is engaged.

UAPHnsv.jpg

John Browning did design a sear blocking thumb safety, or his pistol would never have been accepted by the Calvary, who wanted to keep their revolvers. And he designed an improved half cock, that would prevent the hammer from falling if the sear broke. It is possible to break the sear on these pistols, by hitting the hammer hard enough. However, not all of his 1913 patent was accepted for use by the Army, and they did not use the new and improved half cock safety.

Vcjp1oC.jpg

This feature was never incorporated into the issue 1911. I don't think the Army trusted making the pistol safe by lowering the hammer to half cock. Both the Army, and John Browning understood the thumb safety was there, so the pistol could be quickly, and temporarily made safe, until such time as the hammer could be lowered, all the way down.

Such as the carry mode of this WW2 General, who was a WW1 veteran. Hammer down, round in the chamber

a9Ds6s4.jpg


There are three primary references that I have relied on,

1.) The Government Models, the development of the Colt Model of 1911, by Willian H.D Goddard

2.) Colt .45 Service Pistols, Models of 1911 and 1911A1, by Charles Clawson.

3.) John Brown’s pistol patents.

Clawson went to the National Achieves and found early discussions about the 1911 safety. In the safety section of his book he finds a period problem: enlisted men were holstering their cocked and locked 1911’s. Major General Crozier, the head of Army Ordnance, the manager to pushed the 1911 program through to adoption, was asked if the safety system was there to allow the pistol to be permanently carried cocked and locked, or if it was a temporary measure. MG Crozier replied the safety was a temporary measure. There were apparently were discussions before MG Crozier was approached. Firstly it was proposed the flap holster be modified so the pistol could be carried cocked and locked without the safety being bumped off. That was examined and disregarded as not being achievable. The Army examined modifying the safety, so it would not be bumped off accidentally in the holster, but the consensus was, sure it could, but then it would take two hands to make the pistol safe, and the whole reason for the safety, was for the horse cavalry to make the pistol safe with one hand.

The official pre WW1 carry mode, of round in the chamber, hammer down, pistol in flap holster changed over time. Too many accidental discharges occurred in the Army when the hammer slipped when being lowered. Since half cocks have been around, almost forever, and they failed when the sear did not actually go into the notch, trust in the half cock safety had really dropped by the end of the 19th century. Still, you find lots and lots of half cock safeties in rifles, shotguns, and pistols of the period. I believe up to WW2 the carry mode for the Cavalry was put the safety on, put the pistol in the flap holster, until such time as the magazine and round could be safely removed. However, the introduction of the Jeep caused some interesting accidental discharges. According to a Kimber employee I talked to, the Army experienced over 1000 accidental discharges in holstered 1911's, in Jeeps. (I think he said 1200 Jeep transmissions got a hole in them). Soldiers would take the web belt and pistol holster off, because they are hot and heavy.


OqlpWfy.jpg


and slide them under the seat of the Jeep. If the Jeep stopped hard, and the pistol belt would move forward and hit the transmission.Given some wild rides, occasionally the 1911 would fire, and put a hole in the transmission. This is because the series 70 1911 does not have a firing pin block, and if the pistol is dropped from a high enough height, right on its muzzle, firing pin inertia will cause the occasional round to discharge.


0arXw1i.jpg

So, by the time you get to Vietnam, the carry mode in cantonment is: gun in the flap holster, magazine in the gun, and nothing in the chamber. What you did out in the field was between you and your Company Commander.

The pistol of today is not the pre WW1 pistol. The original 1911 is a different pistol from the quick draw version of today

It had wide hammer spurs so it would be easy to thumb cock

6gw4zjM.jpg

The grip safety was a lot shorter, so it was easy to move the thumb to the hammer spur and thumb cock the thing.


HXUqC4e.jpg

The grip safety was extended after WW1, to protect the web of the hand from hammer bite

fVALrLI.jpg

With the GI grip safety, the hammer is not protected from impact at half cock or full cock.


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With the GI grip safeties the hammer is always at risk of being hit, the sears being sheared, and then there is nothing to prevent the hammer from falling and igniting the cartridge. I think this lead to the wrap around beavertail,


1bADkOh.jpg


Which provides a measure of protection from impacts. These beaver tails also make it about impossible to control the hammer if the user wants to lower the hammer down. There is not space for fingers. Those what want to carry the pistol cocked and locked, have altered the original design so that is the only way to carry the pistol with a round in the chamber.

Long extended safeties are easy to bump off, and I don’t trust the mechanism cocked and locked. There is also something to be considered, the series 70 action is not drop safe. Drakes ran a number of drop tests with titanium firing pins and steel firing pins. Give the pistol enough height, and drop it on the muzzle, the inertia of the firing pin will ignite the cartridge.

I am going to say, while the series 80 mechanism makes the pistol drop safe, the series 80 mechanism created new and novel forms of malfunctions. I have experienced two of them. The first I am going to describe was common enough that I found a number of very old posts about Colt’s with firing pin blocks jammed up. And this pistol worked just fine at the range, and I only found this block jammed up when I cleaned the Colt 1911.

4PQk2XD.jpg

I have also had another Colt series 80 jam with the firing pin block dropped down.

tXwnVaU.jpg

I think what happened was that the extractor got pulled forward during extraction, and that released the block, and then the slide would not go fully forward because the block impacted the back of the frame. This would be most disadvantageous in a time critical situation. Racking the pistol won’t raise the block. Pushing on the block won’t raise the block. The shooter has to recognize this type of malfunction even though it is not obvious, and then needs to drop the magazine (to be safer), rotate the pistol so the bottom of the slide is visible, and press on the firing pin block with something pointy and slim, at the same time push the firing pin below the level of the firing pin stop. Once the firing pin is far enough forward, the block can be released, and the pistol can fire. If you are in the habit of carrying chop sticks, and have a table handy, restoring the pistol to an active duty status is simple. Three hands would be useful too.

It is positively dangerous and accident prone to lower the hammer of a 1911 with the thumb. Many accidental discharges have happened. I don’t know if this is the best way to lower a 1911 hammer, but it is less failure prone than using the thumb

Basically I start by placing the middle finger between hammer and frame

5HYV4lv.jpg

I pull the trigger releasing the hammer and I immediately get my finger off the trigger. I need that half cock to engage as the hammer is lowered. I pull the middle finger out slowly, controlling the rate of decline with the fore finger in spur, till the hammer reaches the half cock.

NO6n9Rg.jpg


My hands start out like this

sEp9lnF.jpg

Once I get the hammer to the half cock, I reposition my hands and fingers. There is not enough space to use the middle finger as a block, so the forefinger is the only finger controlling the hammer. I use the forefinger to lift the hammer back enough that I can pull the trigger and release the sear from the half cock. And then I slowly lower the hammer down to the frame with the forefinger in the hammer spur. This is the most dangerous part as if I lose control of the hammer, there is nothing between the firing pin and hammer.

This procedure cannot be rushed. I don’t know the two hand technique that General Hatcher recommended in his book “Textbook Pistols and Revolvers”. Then Major Hatcher stated the safest way to carry the 1911 loaded was hammer down, but that lowering the hammer had to be done very carefully!. Since Hatcher joined the Army Ordnance Corp in 1917, personally knew and had conversations with John Browning, knew Major General Crozier, but being a new hire, undoubtedly never shared a cup of coffee or was on first name basis. But junior officer Hatcher would have gotten a chance to know everyone who was still around from the 1911 adoption, and he was also Captain of the Army shooting team between the wars, so I think he knew a lot more about the original design, and the original intent, than anyone today.

People have become accustomed to riskier and riskier behavior, and consider what used to be considered positively dangerous, as normal and safe. People today are carrying striker fired pistols that are positively unsafe outside of a holster. Go to the gunstore and ask what is selling. What is selling are high capacity, striker fired Tupperware in 9mm and 380 Auto. There are all sorts of accidental discharges with striker fired pistols going off because the pistol was not in a holster. These pistols don’t have safeties, and clothing will snag the trigger and the gun will fire. A couple of self shootings from this month:

9 August 2022 Ariz. man shoots penis putting gun in waistband

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ariz-man-shoots-penis-putting-gun-in-waistband/

22 August 2022 Georgia Man 'Mishandles' Gun In Grocery Store, Shoots Himself, 3 Others

https://www.iheart.com/content/2022...gun-in-grocery-store-shoots-himself-3-others/

And so, trying to make the case that carrying a 1911 cocked and locked is risky makes no impression, because people think nothing about carrying firearms that are far more likely to have an accidental discharge.

I don’t want, and don’t have, any striker fired self defense pistols. I consider them too dangerous for me. And decades ago, I came to the conclusion that carrying a 1911 cocked and locked was too dangerous for me.

Personally, I like revolvers.
 
Yeah but Slamfire where's your data to back up your rhetoric? Haha jk

Sacred cows are such big, fat, targets. I am glad I was able to talk to a number of Vietnam Veterans before that generation went away, like the WW2 generation and Korean soldiers. A Vietnam helicopter pilot told me that a 2000 page book could be written about all the weapon accidents that happened in Vietnam. He was almost shot by a fellow helicopter pilot playing with his 1911. Bud said, he and his co pilot were sitting in their Huey talking to a Warrant Officer pilot from another squadron. The Warrant was playing with his 1911, no magazine in pistol, racking the slide, aiming at the Huey in front, and pulling the trigger. (why the guys in the Huey did not cuss him out I don't know). Somewhere in the conversation the Warrant puts the magazine in the 1911, racks the slide, and after talking somemore, raises the pistol and pulls the trigger. The bullet went through the front of the Huey, between the pilot and copilot, and hit the mainpost holding the propeller shaft. The Warrant was so startled that he dropped his 1911!

There was another stupid accident the Huey pilot related, another Huey pilot shot his toe off while sitting on the toilet with his 1911. This is another example of someone aiming at their big toe and not remembering there was a round in the chamber. Guys in combat units all have stories about accidental discharges, not only small arms, but other munitions, including rockets. I remember reading early in the Forever War in Afghanistan, about the number of injuries due to negligence discharges had exceeded combat deaths. All of the military services have a real hard time from keeping their own personnel from accidentally killing each other when they have real weapons with real bullets.

Cops have a surprising number of accidental discharge stories. One gunclub bud, prior to his policeman carrier, he was a LURP (long range recon patrol) in Vietnam, and he said, in the field he carried his 1911 round in chamber and hammer down. After that period of his life, he became a LEO. His Department allowed it's LEO's to carry whatever they could qualify with. He carried a 357 Magnum, but he had three stories about 1911 accidental discharges in his department.

The first, a LEO in the department brought his new 1911, I assume with all the hot bells and whistles, to work and showed it off. Somewhere in the presentation and handling, someone pulled the trigger and a round was fired. The second negligent discharge was when a cocked and locked carrying LEO ran to the bathroom to check his 1911 was in proper shape to pass a surprise pistol inspection. He did something and the 1911 went bang in the department bathroom!. The third negligent discharge was with a department LEO at home. The policeman was on a coach, watching TV, and somehow he shot himself in the leg with his 1911. Foot shooting are surprisingly frequent, as gunowners sit in a recliner or coach watching TV, and they pick up their pistol, aim at their big toe, pull the trigger, and find there was a round in the chamber!

After three negligent discharges with 1911's, two of which were in the Department building, the Chief banned 1911's. Bud mentioned it was all a wash anyway, shortly afterwards every LEO had to carry the Department approved

I assume the 1911 ban was universal, or darn near, as what I read now are accidental discharges with striker fired weapons

There are lots of lawsuits over the SIG P320

Tampa police officer sues Sig Sauer alleging weapon fired by itself, causing serious injuries

https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/...apon-fired-by-itself-causing-serious-injuries

Lawsuit the Tampa Bay officer filed against SIG

https://www.smbb.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Complaint-Final-Northrop.pdf

2021 08- 16 Cops Keeps Suing Sig Sauer Because Their Service Weapons Randomly Fire

https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3d4gw/sig-sauer-handguns-p320-trigger-lawsuit-police

Accidental discharges only get reported when something public and spectacular gets reported. But there are lots more of them than ever get in the press. For a time at gunshows, I would ask vendors about negligent discharges at shows they had been at, and they all had stories, and they all had been there when someone put a bullet in the roof.
 
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