Cocked and locked for decades. Practice, practice and more practice. Disengaging the thumb safety is so ingrained in me that my thumb goes through the motion even on pistols without safeties.
1911 style pistol for CCW?
- Thread starter Ralph III
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Yes most striker fired pistol are cocked and locked. Most will have at least two or more safeties built into them. Glock for example has the trigger shoe safety and the firing pin safety plunger. It is also designed to not discharge when dropped.
And yes I always double check the sear engagement on new or new to me Glock's and Glock clones. A low sear engagement can cause it to fail the drop safety test. I also will perform the drop safety test on pretty much all of my pistols.
I have never understood why some people feel very uncomfortable with carrying a 1911 cocked and locked yet will cary a striker fired pistols that is also cocked and locked. I guess it is due to the exposed hammer. Who knows.
edwardware
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1) Yes, of course.
2) NO! No, because there's no way to get there that isn't far, far and away more dangerous than carrying in condition zero (chambered, cocked, safety off). If you want to do this, find a different gun to carry.
3) I don't see any reason to carry Condition 3; if I had a gun with a feature set that made me want to, I wouldn't carry that gun.
Carry in Condition One. If you don't like C1 in a 1911, carry something else
epags
Member
As said before. For ture self defense the 1911 needs to be in condition 1....one in the chamber, hammer cocked and the thumb safety on. As a Range Officer at a public range I always carried in this manner.
When I elected to carry cancealed (CCW) the 1911 was too big and heavy so I elected to carry the Glock Model 36. 45ACP with a Pierce extender to give me 7 + 1 in the chamber and a more secure grip (for the little finger),
Laughing because when I carried the 1911 at the range, a couple of people were 'shocked' to see the hammer back.
I am more aware of reholstering my Glock with only its trigger 'safety' than a 1911 with thumb safety and grip safety.
When I elected to carry cancealed (CCW) the 1911 was too big and heavy so I elected to carry the Glock Model 36. 45ACP with a Pierce extender to give me 7 + 1 in the chamber and a more secure grip (for the little finger),
Laughing because when I carried the 1911 at the range, a couple of people were 'shocked' to see the hammer back.
I am more aware of reholstering my Glock with only its trigger 'safety' than a 1911 with thumb safety and grip safety.
kevincallahan
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Started carrying a 1911 in 1984 after training course. Carried one during most of time time as a Deputy Sheriff in Texas. Still have my last one, a colt officers model and sometimes still carry it. Always cocked and locked.
JTQ
Member
Three basic conditions of carry for a single action auto pistol
- Condition 1 - chamber loaded, hammer cocked, manual safety engaged.
- Condition 2 - chamber loaded, hammer down.
- Condition 3 - chamber empty, hammer down.
Most modern instructors will teach Condition 1. If concerned with seeing a cocked hammer, Condition 3 is a reasonable alternative. There are lots of folks that carry Condition 2, though I'm pretty sure there isn't any pistol training school that will teach that mode.
I won't use Condition 2. I see no advantage, and consider it potentially dangerous getting the gun into Condition 2 status as you have to defeat all the safeties on the gun and then pull the trigger.
- Condition 1 - chamber loaded, hammer cocked, manual safety engaged.
- Condition 2 - chamber loaded, hammer down.
- Condition 3 - chamber empty, hammer down.
Most modern instructors will teach Condition 1. If concerned with seeing a cocked hammer, Condition 3 is a reasonable alternative. There are lots of folks that carry Condition 2, though I'm pretty sure there isn't any pistol training school that will teach that mode.
I won't use Condition 2. I see no advantage, and consider it potentially dangerous getting the gun into Condition 2 status as you have to defeat all the safeties on the gun and then pull the trigger.
JTQ
Member
Most striker fired handguns are the equivalent of Condition 0 - hammer/stiker cocked and safety off, which would be "cocked and unlocked".
The "locked" part of the "cocked and locked" is engaging the thumb safety. If there isn't a thumb safety, it can't be "cocked and locked", or carried in Condition 1.
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Jim Watson
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Right, the stuff people CALL a 1911 is amazing.
This and a number of other dwarf guns are made more like a Spanish Star than a Colt.
JTQ
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A thread from forum member PcolaDawg from several years back
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...l-confess-a-horrible-sin-in-the-hopes.441761/
Vern Humphrey
Member
1) Do you carry your 1911 "cocked and locked"?
Yes -- that was the Army solution. Carry it either chamber empty or cocked and locked.
2) Do you leave the safety off; with one in the chamber and plan to cock the hammer for the first shot?
That's called "Condition 2" because it gives you two chances of a Negligent Discharge, first when lowering the hammer on a chambered round, and secondly when thumb-cocking with a round in the chamber.
3) Do you leave the safety off; and plan on manually racking the slide to chamber the first round and cock the hammer, such as the Israelis do?
Doesn't make sense to me -- especially when you consider you may be at bad-breath distance from your attacker.
Yes -- that was the Army solution. Carry it either chamber empty or cocked and locked.
2) Do you leave the safety off; with one in the chamber and plan to cock the hammer for the first shot?
That's called "Condition 2" because it gives you two chances of a Negligent Discharge, first when lowering the hammer on a chambered round, and secondly when thumb-cocking with a round in the chamber.
3) Do you leave the safety off; and plan on manually racking the slide to chamber the first round and cock the hammer, such as the Israelis do?
Doesn't make sense to me -- especially when you consider you may be at bad-breath distance from your attacker.
Yes most designs are based off of the Star pistols. This includes the Colt Pony which was a Star Model D
CapnMac
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The IDF policy was more related to the widely varying skill level of the people issued pistols, than the safety reliability of those pistols.
Too many people nervously fiddling with the hammers and safeties on GP-35 and the like while riding on buses and in taxis.
I will start by saying that I know nothing about the Kimber Micro 9. I am answering, regarding the 1911, in general. I owned a 1911 as far back as late 1982 or early 1983, have occasionally carried them for personal time self-defense since the late Eighties, and used 1911 pistols, off and on, for police duty, since 1990, until I retired in 2018. I recently discontinued carrying* 1911 autos for defensive purposes, with my right hand not aging well, and none of my 1911 pistols being set-up well, as of this time, for left-hand carry.
Regarding the three questions:
1) This. When I carried a 1911 for police duty, and personal-time carry, it was Condition One, a.k.a. cocked-and-locked.
2) Not normally this, which would be Condition Two. It is important to get a proper firing grip, on a 1911 pistol. Cocking with the weapon hand thumb interrupts that proper grip, to a major degree. The 1911 is not shaped like a Single Action Army revolving pistol, that allows easy thumb-cocking, with the weapon hand thumb. Perhaps most important, getting that hammer into the lowered position has to be done VERY, VERY carefully. Cocking with the support hand is OK for sporting purposes, or a pistol kept positioned for home defense, but in a sudden defensive carry situation, in the wild, or on the streets, that support hand may not be available.
3) Not this, which would be Condition Three, for general carry. I consider it too likely that the support hand might be needed, for other things, during a defensive emergency. Plus, it is quite possible to fumble the running of that slide. Condition Three is OK for off-body storage, or toting the weapon in a sporting context.
As for being comfortable with Condition One, well, I think that it is more safe than carrying a Glock, with its “Safe Action” trigger system, which is, really in Condition ZERO. I have also used Glocks for police duty, and personal carry, and feel a need to be MUCH MORE CAUTIOUS when handling, especially when holstering, at which time an obstruction could fire the weapon, or, when moving through a brushy environment, as with a manhunt situation, with all of those little branches trying to work their way into everything. The 1911 can be directly managed, with a thumb, while holstering, while the grip safety offers yet another margin of safety. The thumb safety of a 1911 offers another margin of safety. If one has to move through brush, with a weapon in a ready position, the 1911 may be a best tool for the job.
To be clear, I must add the disclaimer that I do not believe that handing a 1911 should be self-taught.
*I still have a 1911 set up for home defense, though I would rather grab one of the Benelli shotguns. We have canine early warning systems, which should enable me to establish a good hold, left or right hand, on a 1911.
mljdeckard
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1. For about 27 years now.
FL-NC
Member
IMO, carrying any pistol without a round in the chamber is not tactically sound- too many things can go wrong in the moment when it is needed. I would say that if someone is "uncomfortable" doing so, that getting to that "comfort level" is very important. According to every instructor I have ever worked with (some who were issued the 1911 in their units and were undisputedly among the most competent handgun users on the planet) there are only 2 "safe" ways to carry a 1911- either locked and cocked, or empty chamber. Empty chamber is something that is often required in the military in units (regardless of pistol design) that put more emphasis in risk aversion to prevent accidents VS tactical efficiency. If the user is concerned about the risk in carrying a round in the chamber of a certain pistol due to its design, then maybe consider switching to s design that makes the user more comfortable in this condition.
Mr_Gun_Guy
Member
As the great Ted Nugent once said, “Cocked, locked and ready to rock, Doc!”
I carry a custom (my build) Officer’s length 1911 for EDC. Usually. I also have a S&W Chief’s Special in .45 that I sometimes carry as well (colder weather or ringing the M/C, in a shoulder holster). And there’s always a Kel-Tec P320 in my pocket, no matter what I’m wearing or where I am.
I carry a custom (my build) Officer’s length 1911 for EDC. Usually. I also have a S&W Chief’s Special in .45 that I sometimes carry as well (colder weather or ringing the M/C, in a shoulder holster). And there’s always a Kel-Tec P320 in my pocket, no matter what I’m wearing or where I am.
Smaug
Member
I have a friend who just got a Micro 9 and I got to shoot it at the range a few weeks ago. It's a really nice little gun and it was easy to shoot well. (at 7 yards, at least)
I would absolutely carry it cocked & locked; that's what they're designed for. You would have to train a bit to get that downward swipe of the thumb as part of your draw procedure. If not, and you are drawing the gun to defend yourself, that extra required action may cost you dearly.
With the revolvers you're used to, they have a long, heavy trigger pull that acts as the only real safety. (excluding a transfer bar for drop safety) With a 1911, there is the thumb safety and the grip safety to make up for having a short, crisp trigger pull.
I would absolutely carry it cocked & locked; that's what they're designed for. You would have to train a bit to get that downward swipe of the thumb as part of your draw procedure. If not, and you are drawing the gun to defend yourself, that extra required action may cost you dearly.
With the revolvers you're used to, they have a long, heavy trigger pull that acts as the only real safety. (excluding a transfer bar for drop safety) With a 1911, there is the thumb safety and the grip safety to make up for having a short, crisp trigger pull.
Howland937
Member
I carry a SIG p238 pretty regularly with an empty chamber. It's essentially the same gun as the Kimber Micro. But the only time I carry it, it's an "extra" and it's in my pocket. Not in a pocket holster...just in my pocket.
The 1911 on my hip all day, every day is condition 1 at all times.
The 1911 on my hip all day, every day is condition 1 at all times.
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I consider the hammer to be a large loaded chamber indicator, if it's cocked there's one in the chamber, if not then there isn't. There's no reason for the hammer to be down with a chambered round. The owner's manual for my Kimber advises to pull the trigger on an empty chamber to let the hammer down, not to let it down manually.
Jim Watson
Member
An important point, not often mentioned when CC2 comes up.
I have noticed in a lot of shooting including unloaded starts at IDPA matches, that the first round hurriedly chambered is more likely to misfeed than the second round after the first is fired. A fully loaded gun is more reliable.
epags
Member
Unless I missed a post, we all have forgotten about the Ruger P95DC (and posibbly other similar makes) which has a decocker lever that drops the hammer on a loaded chamber (while keeping the gun aimed in a safe direction).
That allows one to carry with one in chamber and a heavy trigger pull for that first round (having to cock hammer via trigger). Your thoughts?
That allows one to carry with one in chamber and a heavy trigger pull for that first round (having to cock hammer via trigger). Your thoughts?
LocoGringo
Member
I think it is not relevant to what is being discussed with respect to the Kimber Micro 9. The OP is wondering how best to carry a 1911 and the design you're introducing is a DA/SA design like the Beretta 92. It's COMPLETELY different. Are you introducing this design as an alternative to carrying a 1911-like pistol?
epags
Member
You are correct. I lost track of the original poster's point and have read MikeInOr's post and gotten side tracked.
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