1911 style pistol for CCW?

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As you say, many, even most of those AD/ND are not specific to the action type.

One in my theatre of operations was by a guy who thought a Spanish Star that LOOKED like a 1911 WORKED like a 1911 and he could bring it to CC2. Oops, many Stars have full length firing pins and hammer down is not safe. Hole in foot.
 
As you say, many, even most of those AD/ND are not specific to the action type.

One in my theatre of operations was by a guy who thought a Spanish Star that LOOKED like a 1911 WORKED like a 1911 and he could bring it to CC2. Oops, many Stars have full length firing pins and hammer down is not safe. Hole in foot.

Yes- There are many older design SA autos with firing pins that protrude at rest, including Tokarevs and Beretta 1934/35s. Those guns do feature pretty beefy and positive half-cock notches, perhaps as a nod to facilitate chambered carry when the situation dictated. Many of the 70's and 80's Llama .45's also had this firing pin feature, and I remember Stoeger running ads in the gun magazines highlighting the concern for folks used to a 1911.
 
Seen on TFL in a "rated for smokeless" thread which seems as troubling to the Internet Generation as "cocked and locked".
Seems like the part about "...the complicated magazine arms which have been a constant source of trouble and danger." applies here.

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Sacred cows are such big, fat, targets. I am glad I was able to talk to a number of Vietnam Veterans before that generation went away, like the WW2 generation and Korean soldiers.
Bite your tongue! I'm still here.
I assume the 1911 ban was universal, or darn near, as what I read now are accidental discharges with striker fired weapons
There have been a lot of NDs with Glocks -- a typical one being while holstering, and some loose cloth from the shooter's shirt, sweatshirt. etc., gets holstered with the gun.
 
Bite your tongue! I'm still here.

:eek:

There have been a lot of NDs with Glocks -- a typical one being while holstering, and some loose cloth from the shooter's shirt, sweatshirt. etc., gets holstered with the gun.

Oh yes, those striker fired guns are positively dangerous out of a holster, and prone to shooting their owner when being holstered. I have found an account of a leather holster bending, probably due to a car seat, and that somehow snagged the trigger and put a hole in the car seat! The absolute first time I handled a Glock, it was a revolutionary pistol, plastic grip housing, metal inserts, etc. But I sure rejected its safety system and told the salesman that gun was too dangerous for me.

This is the safety

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the striker is always under spring tension, just waiting to go.

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However don't dismay! I found an account of someone whose cocked and locked 1911 killed killed him. The owner had a cocked and locked 1911 in a fanny pack, probably had those extended safeties, and no doubt the mushness of the leather pressed on the grip safety, and from there, something bumped that wonderful single stage trigger. Kaboom!. Another gun owner knocking at the Pearly Gates. Most unfortunate.
 
For CCW purposes:

1) Do you carry your 1911 "cocked and locked"? Yes, only way I feel safe doing

2) Do you leave the safety off; with one in the chamber and plan to cock the hammer for the first shot? Hell no, that's how people shoot themselves

3) Do you leave the safety off; and plan on manually racking the slide to chamber the first round and cock the hammer, such as the Israelis do? I'm not Israeli, so no.

My EDC is a Sig Sauer C3 1911, officer framed, with a 4.25" slide. Excellent carry gun.
 
OP, I recommend your friend get some professional training and practice with her firearm in both condition 1 and 3 carry as well as look into DAO and DA/SA firearms. Condition 2 is not recommended as already explained here. There are also plenty of videos online discussing this topic. I recommend Paul Harrell on YouTube. It will come down to personal choice based on your circumstances.
 
For CCW purposes:

1) Do you carry your 1911 "cocked and locked"? Yes, only way I feel safe doing

Why do you feel safe with it cocked and locked? Is that based on what other people told you, or what?

2) Do you leave the safety off; with one in the chamber and plan to cock the hammer for the first shot? Hell no, that's how people shoot themselves

Cult Cocked and Locked has modified the military 1911 so far from its original configuration, I assume it would have taken John Browning time to recognize the thing. Specifically, to win quick draw games, Cult Cocked and Locked has added extended safeties that could double as diving boards in a pool emergency. These long safeties provide such a lever arm that it is easy to bump them off holsetering, unholstering, between the belt carry, shirt tail snag, etc. And it is easy to bump them on when firing. This has lead to the creation of beavertails that are high on the 1911, so the safety can be "ridden" with the thumb.

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I want to point out an older style of beavertail, that is the Clark 180. Which is on this 1911 of mine

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This grip safety was designed for Bullseye shooters. For decades, Bullseye Pistol shooters (depending on the range) were required to hold the hammer back with their thumb, when they released the slide. Enough accidental discharges occurred with hammers following the slide due to worn GI sear/hammers and trigger jobs, that matches required this practice. Notice where the tip of the hammer is in relation to the later beavertail. You cannot get your thumb under the slide of a pistol with a later beavertail as there is no room. However, this point is more or less moot as metallurgy is so much better, the practice of holding the hammer back has been forgotten except by the real old timers.

The original 1911 was designed to be easily thumb cocked.

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My GI configuration RIA, the hammer hits the grip safety here, the A1 grip safety does not block access to the hammer either.

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Here is the extremely limited access to the hammer on the quick draw beavertail

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There is very little hammer spur exposed to a thumb or finger, about half of the hammer is actually inaccessible at full cock. And, the spur is short to begin with. If Cult Cocked and Locked wants to claim that cocking is dangerous, I would agree on their mangled 1911's. This is something Cult Cocked and Locked did to themselves, they added non military parts, re arranged distances, changed geometries, so by design, Cult Cocked and Locked altered the 1911 so the safest way to carry the thing, is nothing in chamber, magazine in the gun.

3) Do you leave the safety off; and plan on manually racking the slide to chamber the first round and cock the hammer, such as the Israelis do? I'm not Israeli, so no..

I do think that is how the early, pre 1911 pistols were carried. I have asked this again and again, how were these carried?

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I know from Man at Arms Magazine, that the Navy still had these in inventory up to WW2. The Navy never allowed round in the chamber carry for the 1911, I assume no round in chamber was a standard procedure with early automatics. And that is probably a smart thing to do with striker fired weapons as they are so prone to accidental discharges. I remember the cheap 25 ACP Ravens


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and still have a cheap Jennings 22lf

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men would buy these cheap pistols and give them to girl friends, and I heard a number of accounts when one of these pistols went off when a purse was dropped. I knew an Airline baggage handler, and before 2001, there were lots of baggage handler accounts of striker fired pistols firing when baggage was tossed into the plane. The gun owner had chambered a round and left the pistol chambered in his luggage.

Over time, I have developed a profound distrust of striker fired weapons, and the increasing number of self shootings just reinforces my fears. It also took me time to realize that a cocked and locked 1911 is more likely to shoot its owner than a bad guy. After 50 years of listening to the experts of Cult Cocked and Locked, I consider them experts in quick draw games, but not the history, nor the design of the 1911.

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By the time WW1 rolls around, so many discharges have occurred, the Army is positively worried about a round in the chamber. The first accidental discharge I found in print, was during the 1917 National Matches. A civilian lowered the hammer on his 1911 in his tent, and the hammer slipped, the pistol discharged, and a Major 200 yards away was hit. It is a bad practice to decock the 1911 with the thumb.

Manual of the Automatic Pistol, Caliber .45, Model of 1911

By United States American Expeditionary Forces (WW1 Army to France)

Page 20

(2) Do not carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and safety lock on, except in an emergency.

If the pistol is so carried in the holster, cocked and safety lock on, the butt of the pistol should be rotated away from the body when withdrawing the the pistol from the holster, in order to avoid displacing the safety lock.

page 30

To avoid accidents, individual men out of ranks barracks or camp, will first withdraw magazine, then open chamber whenever the pistol is removed from the holster for any purpose. Accidental discharges will not occur if the above rules are always observed.

page 31

25. In campaign, the pistol should habitually be carried with a magazine in the socket, loaded with seven ball cartridges, chamber empty, hammer down.

page 34.

(b) Do not load the pistol until the moment of firing unless there is a probable necessity for its use.


(c) Always lock the pistol when loaded, unless you are going to fire immediately.




https://books.google.com/books?id=ICtEbBvbdq0C&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=Manual+of+the+Automatic+Pistol,+Caliber+.45,+Model+of+1911&source=bl&ots=OOGPHi4XL_&sig=ACfU3U2s89E2JO2sJ17XmbEEikFq5Ik-cQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjvnbL9guzpAhViZN8KHdxCC-E4ChDoATAGegQICxAC#v=onepage&q=Manual of the Automatic Pistol, Caliber .45, Model of 1911&f=false
 
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The 1911 was designed as a weapon of war and was never designed to be carried cocked and locked. Nor was its follow on; the HP. We have modern battery of arms that make automatics carry like a revolver only with built in safeties today.

I had one of the smallest Kimber .45's over 25 years ago. Total nightmare to shoot as it had a ton of recoil. Getting off anything close to an accurate second shot was extremely unlikely. I sold it one range session after I bought it.

That said and as testified to here, many do carry a heavy steel 1911 (or a lighter variant) in condition 1. Many have done this for years without issue. I would not recommend it for a first timer nor for someone who does not practice with great regularity. That small Kimber will be very difficult to control.

Most people vastly underestimate the massive panic that occurs in a life threatening situation. Having to fumble for a hammer or a safety while simultaneously soiling ones underwear is harder to do than it sounds. We are not all Dirty Harry's and very few people are cool calm and collected under life or death duress.

I have two 1911's (Officer's and a Lightweight Commander) and a Springfield xds in .45. I carry the Springfield but lately have been carrying a Glock 26. I shoot the 1911's at the range or carry one if I am hunting afield.

I always recommend revolvers or 9mm Glocks for first timers. But there are as many different recommendations out there as there are recommenders.

In the end the only real safety that matters is the person carrying the gun.
 
I have a 1911 in my glove box that I carry with no round in the chamber. I figure if I need it to shoot back during a road rage incident here in Houston I'll have the time to chamber a round. I'm more worried about getting in an accident and the safety getting bumped off and having a ND.
On the other hand there are a lot more carjacking and robberies while getting gas around town so as soon as I stop I pull the gun out and chamber a round before I ever get out of the car. I carry it with me until I am back in the car and locked up.
When I conceal carry, used to be a Glock 43 or 36 but currently a commander sized 1911, I carry cocked and locked.
I was never comfortable carrying the Glocks with a round in the chamber, so I practiced drawing and racking extensively.
I much prefer the 1911 overall.
 
....For CCW purposes:

1) Do you carry your 1911 "cocked and locked"?
2) Do you leave the safety off; with one in the chamber and plan to cock the hammer for the first shot?
3) Do you leave the safety off; and plan on manually racking the slide to chamber the first round and cock the hammer, such as the Israelis do?....
I'm an aging, mildly overweight wordsmith. I've never been a high-speed, low-drag operator, nor even have any military experience. That should tell you what my opinion is worth. That said, the 1911 below was my carry pistol for, oh, about 4-5 years. I'm a big fan of the "carry the same thing, in the same way, all the time" theory of CC. It carried in #1, as listed above. Getting a 1911 into #2 involves lowering the hammer on a live round. No, thank you, I'll pass. Carrying as specified in #3 involves some risk that I'll have to chamber a round at the very beginning of a violent encounter. No, thank you, I'll pass.
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I've had a 50+ year love affair with the 1911...carried one in peace and war and think highly of its stopping ability. For the most part these were all .45's and all steel guns...though I've flirted with a .38 Super from time to time...I've always returned to the .45 for it's comforting size and my familiarity with it. Nowadays I've sworn off the all steel models, both 5" and 4.25" bbl'd alike and have been quite satisfied with an alloy frame Sig RCS in .45 ACP.

90% of the time, I carry any and all CC weapons in an OWB holster of my own make...it bears a close resemblance to a Bianchi 'Askins Avenger'. The Sig rides well in that rig and I sometimes augment the carry with an off side single magazine belt carrier. Any 1911 that I carry and trust, is holstered "cocked and locked", BTW.

The Sig RCS is an alloy framed, Officer's model grip length, 4" bbl'd., .45 that sports Novak like sights with a match bbl. and a street carry trigger pull weight. In addition, many parts, are nitrided for rust prevention and long wear. The grip frame is checkered fore and aft and the stocks are slim in profile and checkered. IMHO, it's all that a carry piece should have with none of the extras which adorn many a competition gun. With it, I'm capable of sub 1" groups at 10 yds from an unrested Weaver Stance with handloads or HST's. In my use, I'd consider it the very best in a big bore carry gun.

YMMv of course but many who've tried mine have come to share my affection for it's capability. Here it is below.....Best Regards, Rod

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Cult cocked n locked?

Lol. Ok. If you dont carry clocked and locked, just get a different pistol. Theres all kinds. Even revolvers. Old farts love revolvers.

If you're scared of 1911's going rogue, get a thumb break holster. It blocks the hammer.

And a Glock beats the 1911 on quick draw. Try it yourself.

OP, this thread is insane with all kinds of 1921 era obsolete nonsense. Seek professional training.
 
If it wasnt true, I'd go back to a 1911 right now. I've got a good selection of both.

Draw, shoot from the hip one handed. 5yds. Go faster and faster until the grip safety starts getting in the way. Go faster until the thumb safety gets cumbersome.

Then repeat with a Glock. Even exhausted and tired from the above, 9/10 shooters will be faster with the Glock.
 
Draw, shoot from the hip one handed. 5yds. Go faster and faster until the grip safety starts getting in the way. Go faster until the thumb safety gets cumbersome.
Why would I do that? What does it prove? Sounds like parlor tricks to me.

I am foremost a long distance rifle shooter. I had a couple of Glocks as carry guns for a number of years, but it wasn't until I bought me and my Dad matching 1911s that I actually began to enjoy shooting pistols.
I'm glad you like Glocks. I didn't. You do you. No need to build yourself up or your choice of pistol in order to try to tear others' and their choices down.
 
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Why would I do that? What does it prove? Sounds like parlor tricks to me.
I think the real question is, why wouldnt you?

Simply shows you can shoot the gun you choose, from however you might be called on to use it. No parlor tricks, although it may look that way to those who havent taken their skills beyond basic target shooting.

This part isnt about the gun as much as it is about the shooter. I have 1911's, Glocks, and a few others, and I shoot them all the time, and all the same way. Each may be a little different, but for the most part, its all the same. And there are no "tricks" involved, just a lot of realistic practice, and a lot of rounds down range on a regular basis.

And thats where you actually learn which ones might have somewhat of an edge over some of the others. The three main advantages I see with a couple of the later designs are, a higher grip on a lower bore axis, lower recoil and faster recovery, and higher capacity in guns of the same size. I can shoot those guns faster, and more accurately while doing so, and for a longer period of time.

Can I make all of them work? Sure. But given the choice, why wouldnt I choose one of the ones that gives me the edge over the others that dont?
 
I think the real question is, why wouldnt you?

Simply shows you can shoot the gun you choose, from however you might be called on to use it. No parlor tricks, although it may look that way to those who havent taken their skills beyond basic target shooting.

This part isnt about the gun as much as it is about the shooter. I have 1911's, Glocks, and a few others, and I shoot them all the time, and all the same way. Each may be a little different, but for the most part, its all the same. And there are no "tricks" involved, just a lot of realistic practice, and a lot of rounds down range on a regular basis.

And thats where you actually learn which ones might have somewhat of an edge over some of the others. The three main advantages I see with a couple of the later designs are, a higher grip on a lower bore axis, lower recoil and faster recovery, and higher capacity in guns of the same size. I can shoot those guns faster, and more accurately while doing so, and for a longer period of time.

Can I make all of them work? Sure. But given the choice, why wouldnt I choose one of the ones that gives me the edge over the others that dont?
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Hey, whatever, Good luck to you. :thumbup:

There really is only one way to figure any of this out, and there are no shortcuts. This ain't the Matrix. ;)
 
I currently carry AIWB with a CSX as my EDC.. it is in rotation with my Micro 9. I like the platform and the comfort of the pistol in my hand. For the way I carry.. they're both highly concealable. As the weather cools and cover garments become the norm, I'll switch to a shoulder holster and rotate a Kimber Ultra, a Shield Plus and my P30SK.
 
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