First Rifle - .357 or .30-30

[Brass Rain]

Firstly... I don't want a .22 because I want something with more power. Not that I dislike .22 because I don't. It's a great little cartridge. Good performance for what it is and as cheap as you can ask for. But it's not what I want and I have a .22 I can use.

I think the main reasons I want the .30-30 is because of:

a) ease of availability of the rifle and cheap cost, especially if used

and b) because I like the idea of learning (semi) long range target shooting--pushing the rifle to its limits and making it as accurate as I possibly can. I've never even really made a shot beyond thirty yards or so. Though I expect to be doing much more shooting in the near future than I have been.

For what I do now the .357 would be much better, but for all the things I could do it might be the .30-30 or it might still be the .357. I do like the added capacity and cheaper ammo, I just don't like giving up range and power.

 

[22-rimfire]

Sounds good to me. Enjoy!

 

[ArmedBear]

.357 can work fine for hunting if you keep some hot rounds around.

http://www.buffalobore.com has some .357's that rival .30-30 in a Marlin lever gun. The .357 bullet will lose velocity sooner, but at reasonable iron-sight hunting ranges, that's not much of a concern (unless you're Superman).

As an all-around and fun gun, a .357 lever gun wins, hands down. .30-30 lever guns are practical tools more than fun toys. My Marlin 1894C is just plain fun with .38's especially. It's compact and quick. Very accurate, too, contrary to what I expected.

People I've known who bought .30-30's and figured they'd plink with them, don't. .357 lever guns, OTOH, have only one downside as fun guns. The ammo is a lot more expensive than .22LR is.

 

[mr.trooper]

Hunting medium game (or SHTF) = .30-30.
Plinking = .357.

YES! EXACTLY! and you NEED a 338 RUM to take Elk! Those 30-06 are just for plinking!

WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP! .357 lever gun will take deer out to 75 yards easy. It would make a nice home defense rifle as well.

It will be cheaper to feed, and have a wider variety of ammunition as well. This works in YOUR FAVOR as a SHTF gun, because more weapons are chambered for it, and you can shoot 38's as well.

Hunting: .357 = WIN
Plinking: .357 = WIN
defense: .357 = WIN
the SHTF: .357 = WIN

 

[Z_Infidel]

If you want to push the accuracy of a .30-30 levergun to the max, I suggest the 336XLR as a starting point. Mine was very accurate right out of the box, especially with LeverEvolution ammo.

Just remember it's a levergun, not a precision target rifle.

 

[ArmedBear]

If you want to push the accuracy of a .30-30 levergun to the max, I suggest the 336XLR as a starting point. Mine was very accurate right out of the box, especially with LeverEvolution ammo.

Problem is, you end up with a big, heavy rifle.

Much as I like Marlin lever guns, that kinda defeats the purpose IMO.

 

[goon]

But twenty-five inches of drop at 300 yards? Isn't that a lot? You would have to aim two feet over the target to hit it? I mean it doesn't sound undoable but still...

Well, it is a little more than you'd want, but compare it to some others (I really LOVE that ballistics calculator of Remington's).
Consider this - both the .308 168 grain BTHP and the .223 55 grain FMJ show that much drop at 400 yards.
Both of them, but especially the .308 load, are still considered to be rounds capable of hitting at that range. The USMC also still qualifies with the 5.56 M855 ball (nearly identical to .223 but with a 62 grain bullet) at 500 yards.
To put it in perspective, suppose that for whatever reason you are forced to take a long range shot at some bad guy 300 yards away. Maybe he's shooting at you with a rifle.
Anyhow, figure that 25 inches is slightly less than the length of his leg. If you hold for just about the top of his head you'll put a round center mass.
Also, according to Hornady their 30-30 lever evolution ammo only has 12 inches of drop at 300yards with a 200 yard zero. https://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=198
Last, when it was first introduced, the 30-30 was like nothing that had ever been seen in a lever action before. At it's time, it was a small caliber, flat shooting, high velocity wonder. Although many more powerful rounds are still available, the 30-30 still hasn't lost anything from when it was first introduced.



But read on to my last post - I think I said it better there.

 

[saturno_v]

http://www.buffalobore.com has some .357's that rival .30-30 in a Marlin lever gun

I'm still skeptical that can rival a 30-30..they publish the velocities but not the energies...and if you go hot then you can take the 170 gr. 30-30 from Grizzly Cartridges...2400 fps out of a carbine barrel...

With the new Hornady Leverevolution the 30-30 is now tremendously versatile....is a 300+ yd and can take even a Moose int he right hands at shorter distances...

 

[ArmedBear]

Buffalo Bore .357 in an 18.5 inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 2153 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 2298 fps

Remington .30-30

150 SP CL 2390 FPS
170 SP CL 2200

Yeah, the Buffalo Bore .357 isn't quite .30-30. But it's hardly "so ridiculously outclassed".

That's not plinking ammo, of course. But there is no small game .30-30, or plinking .30-30. There's plenty of available plinking .38 Special that will work fine on small game as well, and my 1894C shoots tiny groups with it.

There's no rifle that will do everything well. That's not the point.

 

[ArmedBear]

they publish the velocities but not the energies...

LOL

Why would they need to publish it?

Energy = weight * velocity^2 / 450450

Add this to the above chart:
.357
180: 1369 ft-lb.
170: 1305
158: 1626
125: 1465

.30-30
150: 1902
170: 1827

 

[saturno_v]

Why would they need to publish it?

Energy = weight * velocity^2 / 450450

Sorry!!! LOL

ArmedBear..

You compare a niche specialized load with your average commercial 30-30 load ($9.50 a box at Wal Mart last week)

As in my previous message...you take Buffalo Bore and I take Grizzly Cartridges

Buffalo Bore .357 170 gr 1860 fps

Grizzly Cartridge 30-30 170 gr. 2396 fps

Following the formula

GC 170 gr. 2166 ft/lb

Cost per round for a 30-30 of course is higher than a 38 Special or a 357...but not a lot higher..it is probably the least expensive high power rifle round out there (excluded the 7,62 X 39 and the 223 Remington)

 

[goon]

The 30-30 is a 150 yd or closer gun just like a 22LR in a rifle is a 50-75 yd gun, no matter what anyone tells you. You can shoot further, and yes you can kill a deer at 200 yds or further with the 30-30 and you can easily shoot 22LR at 100 yds.

For hunting, I totally agree. Actually, when I hunt, I sneak up as close as I can get. I prefer to shoot from as close as possible because it minimizes the chance of just wounding the animal.

As per Brass Rain's original post:

On the other hand, I'd get quite a bit more range out of the .30-30 because Magnum in a long barrel or not .357 is still a pistol round. And I'd hate to be limited in range because my bullets (quite literally) couldn't go the distance.

It would be used as a general purpose rifle--shooting targets to cans and bottles to possible small game or as a wilderness gun to SHTF situations. Not really for medium-large game hunting, but it's a possibility I guess.

I guess to address those concerns-
1. The 30-30 is not well suited to small game. It can be done with handloads but that may be something that you won't be able to do for awhile.
2. The .357 can't "go the distance" of the 30-30. At the very least, if 24" of drop at 300 yards seems like a lot, wait till you see what the .357 drops at that range.
3. If shooting cans, hub caps, and milk jugs is your primary use, with hunting and defense secondary considerations, the .357 loaded with .38 Specials is a better choice.
4. If you want to take your rifle into the woods with you just to have a gun along (I always also take a gun with me if I go more than 50 yards into the woods) the .357 is a better choice. It's lighter and more handy so it will be more pleasant to carry on a long walk.
5. The .357 is more versatile IMO. Hunting larger game at 100 yards is sort of at it's outer limits but it can still do it. Why not use the gun for all that it can be used for?
6. The .357 will cost more at first. But if it's what you want, spend the extra $200 and buy one. In my experience, you'll never be satisfied if you don't get exactly what you want. If need be, ignore all of our information and go with what your "gut" tells you.


I know you're only talking lever actions, but after you settle on one you can still pick up a cheap military surplus rifle for about $100 that will be better suited to long range use or if you need more power.
Just a thought...

 

[ArmedBear]

As in my previous message...you take Buffalo Bore and I take Grizzly Cartridges

Oh, there's no denying that you can get hot .30-30 like Grizzly. Buffalo Bore has some coming out, too, up to 190 grains.

The discussion above, though, brought up original .30-30 and then said it outclassed .357. That's not true, for what the OP wants.

The bottom line, for me, is this:

If you want to use a .30-30 with a scope and/or on elk, the hot stuff and the long-range stuff like LE does take the old cartridge to a new level.

However, if you want to use a .357 carbine at iron-sight ranges (<150 yards), it can do what an original .30-30 did, with the right ammo.

A 336XLR with a scope isn't different in weight, size and handling from any .308 boltie. It's heavier than a basic Savage. And the .308 will outperform it with the cheapest Wal-Mart ammo you can buy, up against the best .30-30. Much as I like levers, I'd just as soon get a Savage Weather Warrior in .308, if what I really want is a handy medium-range big game rifle.

Without the scope, you get a handier rifle, but most of the performance of the hot .30-30 is wasted except on very large game.

An 1894C weighs in at 6 lb. and is 36" long. Straight grips are easier to carry around all day. Hot .357 will hunt as well as you have any need, with iron sights. .38 Special will hunt rabbits a lot better than .30-30, and if you've ever seen how accurately the 1894C shoots .38, you know it'd be a great rabbit rifle.

I'm not saying the .30-30 isn't a more powerful cartridge. It is. The 1894C is a handier carbine and .38 is a better round for harvesting rabbits. Either way, there's a tradeoff.

If what someone really wants is a handy little carbine that's unobtrusive to carry and stow, fun to shoot, useful for defense, small game, and occasionally on deer-sized game, the 1894C meets those spec's.

If they want a 250-yard-plus deer rifle, that's a different rifle, and modern .30-30 can do it well. It just won't meet the other requirements well.

 

[saturno_v]

Armedbear you right

We are going back to the original discussion...if you want to kill a deer at 100 yards the two rounds are equivalent..dead is dead

But ballistically they are not equivalent..

Except only for Buffalo Bore, all other ammo manufacturers out there publish muzzle energy numbers for a .357 out of a carbine barrel at half or less those of a 30-30 load.....actually the best of all is Winchester that can get 1100 ft/lb...I did look at Winchester, Remington, Federal, Hornady, CORBON, the Hodgdon reload center with dozens of load combination (specifically for rifles in .357)....that is badly outsmoking for me..

I even checked an old 1965 publication when the 357 Mag and 44 Mag were, supposedly, loaded very hot at the original design limits...the Norma .357 158 gr. out of a 10 inches test barrel was at 810 ft/lb...how in the world Buffalo Bore can get DOUBLE these numbers with 8 inches more of barrel within the SAAMI specs???

Buffalo Bore magical numbers seem to be the exception, not the rule...

Even if you take the Buffalo Bore stuff with their best results, the 158 gr at 1600+ ft/lb, the regular Remington or Winchester 150 gr are at 1900+ ft/lb....that is still 300 ft/lb of difference at the muzzle...and because the blunt nose and worse BC, at 100 yards the difference will be very significant..it is not as dramatic but is still outclassed in my book

However, at risk of repeating myself over and over, I still do not understand how Buffalo Bore get that kind of results within the SAAMI pressure limits...Again they are the only manufactuer I can find able to get this level of oomph for a .357 out of a carbine barrel....probably using some special proprietary extra slow buring powder....I will be curious to see what they will get for their heavy 30-30 load...I expect at least 2400-2500 ft/lb if not more!!!


If Winchester, Remington and the others load their .357 so "anemically" there should be a reason to believe their 30-30s are anemic too compared to the SAAMI limits...

 

[ArmedBear]

probably using some special proprietary extra slow buring powder

I believe that is what they do.

If Winchester, Remington and the others loads their .357 so "anemically" there should be a reason to believe their 30-30s are anemic too compared to the SAAMI limits...

True.

I don't think .357's are necessarily loaded anemically so much as they're loaded for use in revolvers, not optimized for rifles. Few people want to shoot a 4" revolver with cannon loads, either.

.30-30 has some of the same issues .45-70 does, though not as much. It's loaded to work safely in rifles built in the 19th Century. .45-70 works fine in its original form, but it's a ridiculously powerful round, if it's loaded for strong modern rifles only. Most factory stuff, though, works safely in Trapdoor Springfields.

 

[Brass Rain]

I really should get the .357 version. It suits my specific needs more than the .30-30. I just like the idea of a more powerful, far-reaching rifle. But I guess I can buy a $100 Mosin and a scope sometime and some surplus ammo and shoot far all I want.

Then again if I'm at the buying place and I see a .30-30 that looks good and no .357 I might not be able to hold back...

Not that I've officially decided yet, anyway. Bt I still have till the thirteenth of July.

 

[BigGunsMoreFun]

Depends on what you do the most

For hunting I'd definitely go with the 30-30. I think the Winchester Model 94s in 30-30 were darn near everyones first real rifle. Magnum Research also makes a very nice revolver in 30-30. Look up the BFR3030 on their website. I have one and I love it.

Please don't ruin your lever gun with a scope. If you get the revolver I can see where a scope is feasible if you intend to shoot it beyond 50 yards.

If you are just going to shoot at the range and plink and maybe do some cowboy action shooting I'd go for the .357/.38.

Given my choice I always prefer the more powerful and accurate caliber at 100 yards even if it is more costly to shoot. I love a gun that kicks like hell and goes boom. Not one that barely bumps your shoulder and goes pop like a kids cap gun.

I'm sure there will be a wide range of opinions on this. You can do anything with the 30-30 that you can do with the .357/.38 except cowboy action shooting. I don't think they allow 30-30 in any of their matches.

The .357/.38 cannot reach out there and touch someone as hard nor as accurate as a 30-30.

My opinion. Have fun with whatever you buy. Let us know how it goes.

Molon Labe,
Joe

 

[Brass Rain]

BigGunsMoreFun, I agree with you on that for sure.

"I love a gun that kicks like hell and goes boom. Not one that barely bumps your shoulder and goes pop like a kid's cap gun."

I'm sorry to say that the biggest thing I've fired is a .40 caliber Beretta and that isn't even considered "large". Though it is an enjoyable gun to shoot...

Still deciding.

 

[aspade]

Hot loaded 357 can get close to 30-30 energies at the muzzle.

At rifle ranges, those stubby .35 caliber bullets will have spent most of that energy heating air.

An absolute max ala Buffalo Bore .357 load like the 158 grain @ 2150 fps MV (Sierra G1 BC = 0.125)will have dropped to under 1300 fps and lost almost 2/3 of its energy at 150 yards.

A mild 2300 fps 150 grain .30-30 (Sierra G1 BC = 0.225) is running near 1800 fps at 150 yards, and has 80% more energy than the Buffalo Bore .357

With Hornady's hot 160 grain LR ammo (G1 BC = ~0.33-0.34) the 30-30 is running over 2000 fps at 150 yards, and retains 150% more energy than the .357. That .30-30 still has more power at 300 yards than the .357 does at 75.

 

[wuchak]

An absolute max ala Buffalo Bore .357 load like the 158 grain @ 2150 fps MV (Sierra G1 BC = 0.125)will have dropped to under 1300 fps and lost almost 2/3 of its energy at 150 yards.

and 1300 fps is about the normal velocity of at .357 snubby at the muzzle.

You don't have to buy Buffalo Bore or Double Tap hot .357 rounds. You can load them yourself at home for a fraction of the price with Hodgdon's Lil'gun or H110. I like Lil'gun because it gives top velocity at 2/3 the pressure. Reloading also lets you tune a load for max accuracy out of your gun. A couple of tenths of a grain of powder or a slightly longer overall length can make a huge difference. You probably won't find a single load that gives best accuracy from both the revolver and the rifle. I would tune it for the rifle and live with it in the revolver.

 

[glass1785]

I have been debating the 1894C and 336 for awhile now. Right now I have turned my sights towards coyote hunting down on my uncle's farm (and his neighbors too) giving me allot of room. I have also considered some deer/hog hunting as well but that is still a toss up. The ranges we have seen coyotes (while pheasant/rabbit hunting) are between 100-200 yds, and much further on the run. I have a Marlin 60 in the works now but can still borrow my dad's until then. Is the .30-30 overpowered for coyote sized game? Is the .357M a better fit for that bill? How will a .30-30 do for hogs? I definitely want a lever gun and I do plan on putting a scope on whichever one I get...thoughts on that? I am not set-up for reloading. I had been leaning to the .357M but now have several doubts.

 

[ArmedBear]

If you want to weigh down your gun with a scope, you might as well get the .30-30.

The pistol caliber carbine makes the most sense, to me, with irons. Keep it light, compact, and quick. Don't plan to use it past 100 yards.

.30-30 should work for coyotes and hogs, and makes more sense with the scope.

 

[SN13]

What has more energy at 200yrds? (All are Remington Express SP loads)

7.62x39 125gr SP (ME 1552)

.30-30 150gr SP (ME 1982)

.223 55gr SP (ME 1282)

?????????????????????????????


Here's a Hint, it's not the Popular US cartridges!


200yrds:

x39 - 882
-30 - 858
.223 - 648

400yrds

x39 - 483
-30 - 399
.223 - 295

Hrmmm, but x39 sucks for hunting deer past 100yrds, and .30-30 can take down an elk at 200?

Physics don't lie, X39 WINS!

That being said, get a 30-30 for hunting in a lever gun, .22 for plinking, .308 for hunting anything in North America (cept maybe Alaskan Grizz and Mosquitos... Might need a little more Umphf)

 

[jkingrph]

Whatever you do learn to reload, even if you go the route of one of the hand held Lyman Tong tools. Give that the 30-30 is definetly a win win situation. You can load it down using plinker bullets or good cast bullets which are very cost effective..Doing this you can shoot it for about the same cost as 38 spc or .357 ammo., plus you still have the capability of the full power rifle cartridge.

I hae been doing this for 40 years now, my first centerfire was a 30-06 and I learned to cast bullets so I could afford to shoot more while in college. I liked the cast bullets so well I have continued over the years.

I bypassed the 357 in rifle, and went 44 mag instead as I think it is a whole different class in a rifle. I had already had 30-30, 35 Rem and 45-70, but just wanted a pistol cartridge in a rifle. I do not reccomend using a cartridge loaded specifically for a rifle to be used in a handgun, problems as excessive recoil, even causing cylinder lockup due to bullets being pulled forward due to recoil can occur even with heavily crimped loads. That said I load all of my 44 loads to pistol levels more for fun, if I used it for hunting I would load them hotter for better range andtrajectory.

 

[ECVMatt]

I just have misgivings about using the .357 for hunting past

50 yards or so.

I took mine to TX a few years back and shot a decent sized hog (maybe 150lbs) with it at about 70 yards or so. It sure hit it, poked a hole in it, and made it bleed, but what it did not do is hammer it like a .30-30 does. I found my hog, but it took some work. I was not using BB, but a healthy does of 2400 and 180 XTP. I was not impressed.

I later tried to shoot a whitetail with it, but it out smarted me (not too hard to do) and escaped. I really would have liked to seen what it would have done on a thinner skinned animal.

I really like my .357 for small game hunting, desert bumming, woods helling, etc., but I am not sure it would be my first choice for medium sized game again.

Strangely enough though, I would not mind having it in a 92 LA Riot type situation. It seems about perfect for that.

This is a tough call. I am glad I can have both. Plus a few other calibers not mentioned in this thread.

All this thinking has made my head hurt. Time to head to the fridge.

Matt