earlthegoat2
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Id think Varmint granades would work well at that distance and not over penetrate at all.
FMJ just fine out of a rifle for defense?
- Thread starter AcceptableUserName
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OK Acceptable, out with it.
Admit it. You have gone over to the dark side.
There is only one reason you are trying to throw out decades of improvements in bullet technology and convince yourself that fmj is plenty in your 45 and your AR-15.
You want to have zillions of rounds because you know the end of the world is nigh and you are trying to convince yourself it will be OK.
This is not because you want to save 20 bucks on 1 box of SD ammo, its because you are preparing for the zombie apocalypse!
You have been around long enough to know that HPs are better, but you arent REALLY looking for a box or two, you want to buy a pallet for your bunker
Comon, you know I am right, it will feel SO GOOD to admit it. Just say it. Say it. " I am a survivalist."
totally just messin with ya.
Admit it. You have gone over to the dark side.
There is only one reason you are trying to throw out decades of improvements in bullet technology and convince yourself that fmj is plenty in your 45 and your AR-15.
You want to have zillions of rounds because you know the end of the world is nigh and you are trying to convince yourself it will be OK.
This is not because you want to save 20 bucks on 1 box of SD ammo, its because you are preparing for the zombie apocalypse!
You have been around long enough to know that HPs are better, but you arent REALLY looking for a box or two, you want to buy a pallet for your bunker
Comon, you know I am right, it will feel SO GOOD to admit it. Just say it. Say it. " I am a survivalist."
totally just messin with ya.
AcceptableUserName
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well, closer to the truth at least. I'd definitely like to have some more ammo on hand than what I have. I have the 1:9 twist barrel, so I'm going to stick to 52-69 gr, and I guess just read reviews and buy a bunch. I definitely plan to buy some hp's/otm's.
An fmj out of a .45 does not have good terminal performance, FBI police shooting data place any handgun fmj in poor standing and ballistic gelatin test support this. Whether real world or lab tests both point to fmj not being worth while when modern hollow points exist. .45 acp is a better fmj performer, but better still isn't good. .223 fmj performance depends on design but will often fail to yaw, I would only use it if I had nothing else here's a link it does show which designs are the best performers both fmj and otherwise.
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.223
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.223
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shadowalker
Member
This is where reloading is nice, you can load ammunition equivalent to TAP for about the same money as FMJ costs.
FMJ can work in either handgun or rifle, it just may require more hits on the target. I prefer to use JHP or OTM because you don't know you are going to get one hit, let alone more than that.
FMJ can work in either handgun or rifle, it just may require more hits on the target. I prefer to use JHP or OTM because you don't know you are going to get one hit, let alone more than that.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
"Defense" to me is basically sorta up close and personal, which means probably no more than a hundred yards or so. To me, 100 yards is definitely up close. Even closer is merely even easier. The FMJ 5.56 I used back in the 1970s came all apart inside a coyote or jackrabbit, close up; so does hunting ammo.
Any other cartridge? Hunting ammo. I'm not there to sing and dance with the dude; I want him to wind up as "plumb ruint".
Pistol? I did okay for reliability in IPSC with 200-grain SWCs in a 1911, so I see no reason why "flying trashcans" wouldn't cycle reliably. Hardball? Where is it written that I'm supposed to shoot once and then stop and look to see if something good happened? I don't figure the chores are done until a once-vertical Hostile is assiduously practicing horizontality.
Any other cartridge? Hunting ammo. I'm not there to sing and dance with the dude; I want him to wind up as "plumb ruint".
Pistol? I did okay for reliability in IPSC with 200-grain SWCs in a 1911, so I see no reason why "flying trashcans" wouldn't cycle reliably. Hardball? Where is it written that I'm supposed to shoot once and then stop and look to see if something good happened? I don't figure the chores are done until a once-vertical Hostile is assiduously practicing horizontality.
Zerodefect
member
I keep a supply of any 55-70gn fmj 5.56 ammo I ca n find for a good price.
But my first few mags are loaded with Hornady TAP. Chances are extremly slim that I'll need more ammo and reload with my plinking ammo.
I have a 1/7 16" barrel so I use these:
http://www.hornady.com/store/223-Rem-75-gr-FPD/
For a 1/9 just use the lighter ones.
As for the .45, it was desighned for ball ammo and works fine with it. But if your .45 will feed Remington Goldensaber bonded then I would use it. You only need enough to fill your CCW mags. Stockpile ball ammo.
But my first few mags are loaded with Hornady TAP. Chances are extremly slim that I'll need more ammo and reload with my plinking ammo.
I have a 1/7 16" barrel so I use these:
http://www.hornady.com/store/223-Rem-75-gr-FPD/
For a 1/9 just use the lighter ones.
As for the .45, it was desighned for ball ammo and works fine with it. But if your .45 will feed Remington Goldensaber bonded then I would use it. You only need enough to fill your CCW mags. Stockpile ball ammo.
AcceptableUserName
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ive notice TAP ammo seems to read "TRAINING" in .223....
why is this?
i will venture a guess and say its because a dept/unit will use the .556 and train with the .223...?
well, ammunitiontogo sells some like that at least...
why is this?
i will venture a guess and say its because a dept/unit will use the .556 and train with the .223...?
well, ammunitiontogo sells some like that at least...
AcceptableUserName
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Zerodefect
member
Hornady .223 is Hornady 5.56, Hornady's rifle ammo cal list:
http://www.hornady.com/store/Choose-by-Caliber/
http://www.hornady.com/store/Choose-by-Caliber/
shadowalker
Member
The training ammo is not the same as TAP defensive.
A lot of people used M193 for training and TAP for duty and had to adjust their zero constantly, TAP training is also 75 grain so they don't need to adjust their zero.
A lot of people used M193 for training and TAP for duty and had to adjust their zero constantly, TAP training is also 75 grain so they don't need to adjust their zero.
Zerodefect
member
That round you posted is the training ammo that mimmicks the TAP ammo I posted. It's cheaper and uses regular components, but has similar ballistics so if you get accurate hits traing with that then you should be GTG with the TAP rounds.
AcceptableUserName
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there is alll kinds of different TAP for 223/5.56
soft point, hp, frangible/ballistic tip
ill get a variety here and there. it seems like something in the 64 gr range would be optimal out of my gun.
what out of the cheap ammo would you guys recommend?i read stuff about Prvi Partizen making a Colt explode over on the firing line so im avoiding that. Silver Bear perhaps? I don't like that they're not brass cased but how is the stuff otherwise? Good but just dirty? And the Sellier Bellot?
just wondering about that. I know its no substitute. I'll stick To federal and Fiocchi for the ball ammo.
soft point, hp, frangible/ballistic tip
ill get a variety here and there. it seems like something in the 64 gr range would be optimal out of my gun.
what out of the cheap ammo would you guys recommend?i read stuff about Prvi Partizen making a Colt explode over on the firing line so im avoiding that. Silver Bear perhaps? I don't like that they're not brass cased but how is the stuff otherwise? Good but just dirty? And the Sellier Bellot?
just wondering about that. I know its no substitute. I'll stick To federal and Fiocchi for the ball ammo.
Zerodefect
member
I'll buy brass cased Privi, S&B, Brown Bear, etc.....but right now it costs nearly as much as better Federal ball.
So I've been running federal 55grain ammo for plinking. Lucky for me, my Aimpoint is easy to reset zero back to for TAP.
So I've been running federal 55grain ammo for plinking. Lucky for me, my Aimpoint is easy to reset zero back to for TAP.
Fonzy1965
Member
Interesting question. The problem that I see with the question and the answers, in my opinion, is that we are assuming defense ONLY in a home scenario; and although this is probably the most likely case in which most of us will have to make the choice of using lethal force or not, it should not be the only consideration. SHTF, post-Katrina N.O. and LA riots comes to mind. If I'm going to own a rifle it needs to be flexible enough (as a system, gun + ammo) to serve me well thru a variety of situations, and I need to train accordingly. With this in mind I'd say that FMJ is out of the question, except for plinking (Bartholomew makes a good point in this regard, I think) and JHP, TAP and SP should be better options for pretty much any situation in which we may find ourselves in. My Golani eats 62 grs HP Brown Bear and 64 grs SP BVAC like is candy, with very little shift in POI out to 200 yards. Just my 2 cents.
Here is how I do it.
I also have a 1/9 barrel.
20 round pmag in the gun with hornady TAP FPD 75 grain. <the 20 rounder allows me to hang it over the door inside the bedroom closet without it pokin down.>
30 round pmag hornady TAP FPD 75 grain nearby on the shelf.
Gun bag with 6 GI mags with PVRI 55 remington soft points.
So 230 rounds. That... should do it.
As far as the 75 grain not working well in a 1/9, I havent seen it yet, havent shot that ammo past 75 yards yet tho. Seems just as accurate as the 55gr.
Really for home defense, I am grabbing the shotgun first tho. And tossing the 9mm to my wife.
The AR is more a things are REALLY BAD gun.
I also have a 1/9 barrel.
20 round pmag in the gun with hornady TAP FPD 75 grain. <the 20 rounder allows me to hang it over the door inside the bedroom closet without it pokin down.>
30 round pmag hornady TAP FPD 75 grain nearby on the shelf.
Gun bag with 6 GI mags with PVRI 55 remington soft points.
So 230 rounds. That... should do it.
As far as the 75 grain not working well in a 1/9, I havent seen it yet, havent shot that ammo past 75 yards yet tho. Seems just as accurate as the 55gr.
Really for home defense, I am grabbing the shotgun first tho. And tossing the 9mm to my wife.
The AR is more a things are REALLY BAD gun.
AcceptableUserName
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I view the AR as a disaster weapon. I'm not a mall ninja, so I try and keep that on the low-key though. It really is a really bad stuff type of deal. I'm trying to build a decent stockpile of stuff to have on hand for any reason. Doesn't need to be a SHTF type of deal. It could be a just general ammo shortage thing.
People say jungle loading is bad, but in that type of scenario that's probably what I'd do, mostly to conserve ammo. I'd go two fmjs to one sp or jhp.
I'm definitely going to invest in some 10 rd mags for plinking and 20 rd mags for utility for the same purpose.
People say jungle loading is bad, but in that type of scenario that's probably what I'd do, mostly to conserve ammo. I'd go two fmjs to one sp or jhp.
I'm definitely going to invest in some 10 rd mags for plinking and 20 rd mags for utility for the same purpose.
MachIVshooter
Member
Reliabilty is fine, but accuracy can suffer due to the rather violent feeding of any semi-auto rifle slamming that soft lead point into the feed ramp. With the bullet tip deformed, aerodynamics and stability suffer.
That said, at HD ranges, it's certainly not gonna matter if that tip deformation takes you from 1.3 to 2.4 MOA.
shadowalker
Member
prvi makes good ammo and if I were going to stock up on commercial ammunition it would either be prvi or IMI and preferably M193.
All weapon and ammunition manufacturers occasionally make mistakes. I know a lot of people who have fired a lot of prvi without any problems. On the other hand a lot of people have had trouble with Federal XM193.
All weapon and ammunition manufacturers occasionally make mistakes. I know a lot of people who have fired a lot of prvi without any problems. On the other hand a lot of people have had trouble with Federal XM193.
Shadow Man
Member
Benzy2, my sincere apologies. I missed the "Not" part. I'm sorry about jumping on you like that.
I'm sorry about jumping on you like that.scythefwd
Member
I'll say fmj is acceptable with one caveat... it has to be made by barnes FMJ will punch right through. At HD ranges, it will do it consistently. FMJ will also go through walls. FMJ is used by the military for multiple reasons...reliability, we don't shoot just once, your whole team is shooting, it is outlawed by the Hauge conventions (when fighting another country that signed the treaty) to use anything but fmj and since we don't know when we are going to be fighting another hauge treaty country we use the same ammo in every battle as it makes supply lines easier.
FMJ will punch right through. At HD ranges, it will do it consistently. FMJ will also go through walls. FMJ is used by the military for multiple reasons...reliability, we don't shoot just once, your whole team is shooting, it is outlawed by the Hauge conventions (when fighting another country that signed the treaty) to use anything but fmj and since we don't know when we are going to be fighting another hauge treaty country we use the same ammo in every battle as it makes supply lines easier.351 WINCHESTER
Member
Only if I'm shooting a .303 British with a mk7 bullet.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
For my 1/9 twist, I really like the 55 gr Ballistic Tip. The plastic tip enhances feeding and the bullet comes apart PDQ. For me and my situation (more worried about critters with four legs), that's the round of choice. And yes, I've tested it.
Cosmoline
Member
The only reason 5.65/.223 works "well" in FMJ format is because the bullets tend to blow apart on impact. They fail, in other words. Relying on the tendency of a round to FAIL seems very questionable to me. Unless you have to because of Hague, go with SP's or HP's out of a long gun. The velocity is there to really make them work well. The exception would be for long arms such as slug guns and big bore rifles that are already throwing a very wide projectile and need no expansion.
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