Friend or foe?

[Warren]

Many of the "what would you do" threads have as a premise that you are the oly CCW or armed person close enough to engage the BG.

What if though you are not the only one?

Let us skip over the part where you decide to engage or not and go straight to you have decided to engage.

The BG is armed and is a definite threat to you or others, you draw and see that not only is there the original BG there is another armed person.

What do you do?

Is this other person a CCW or plain clothes or off duty cop or officer of the court? Is he also a BG. Is he thinking the same things about you?

I have seen numerous accounts where LEOs have shot each other, and with the rise of CCWs across the country it is only a matter of time before a CCW mistakenly shoots a fellow CCW.

I understand that retreat and disengagement are optimal responses in most situations but there are situations when you would need to draw and if a second CCW sees it the same way there could very well be a tragic event.


What can be done to counteract this?

 

[BullfrogKen]

Warren,

We addressed this very dilemna this month at no less than 2 stages at our annual NTI event. I'm sorry to say I saw, and heard justified, far more shootings of fellow armed citizens than I was comfortable with.


We are training to shoot each other.

 

[Warren]

So how do make it so the risk is lowered?

Can the risk be eliminated completley with the right procedures?

 

[Art Eatman]

"...not only is there the original BG there is another armed person."

Time is your enemy. You have the original Bad Guy whom you must shoot *right now*, per your implied scenario.

Now, just because there is a third party who is armed in no way defines him absolutely as another Bad Guy. You have to assess his "package": His appearance, in part, and then his behavior. If he's dressed differently from you, and roughly the same as the Bad Guy, that's an "Uh-of!". Then, if he starts to produce his weapon after you shoot, you have a real problem.

If he produced the weapon earlier and pointed it at the BAd Guy, no problem, I guess. If afterwards, I'm purely guessing that I'd cover him and yell, "Freeze!" or some such thing. Or take cover, I dunno. Maybe both?

Every scenario is gonna be different. Whatever you decide to do, it's gotta be quick and common-sensical for the occasion. No "One size fits all."

Art

 

[BullfrogKen]

I had a response typed up, then the site timed me out and I lost it.


Its probably good it did.


I'll let you know my personal thoughts after the team has the after-event debrief this Saturday. This was a HOT, HOT issue this year. I mean . . . well . . . anyway. This is a public forum, and I'm not going to air that laundry here.


I'll be back with my thoughts after the team has a chance to discuss it amongst ourselves.

 

[Biker]

I've given this scenario thought as well. My appearance could easily peg me as a BG. I dunno, tough one...

Biker

 

[Warren]

Assuming you have the right read on the situation and know he is a GG how do you increase the odds that he will see you as a GG and not shoot you?

True, one size does not fit all but is there something that can be done to move the odds in the right direction?

 

[Mannlicher]

I suppose anything is possible. When cops do have bad shoots, where a uniform will shoot an undercover, its usually the result of not following procedure on both sides.
Frankly, you can add in so many variables that you can reduce any scenerio to a 'no shoot' decision. If you are faced with this one though, I guess you will just have to make a split second decision, using what data you have.

 

[atlctyslkr]

Maybe those CWP badges are not such a bad idea. Well, it probably is a bad idea. I posted a thread a few weeks ago poking fun at them

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=202622

I have not thought that much about the issue of "friendly fire". Now I will. I don't see the issue happening that much in a typical parking lot. I see this problem more in a crowded shopping area. There have been alot of mall shootings all over the country. I would definitely think twice about drawing my gun if I heard shots but did not actually see where they came from. A trigger happy permit holder may think I"m the origin of the shots and try to take me out.

After reading the other posts on this it just doesn't seem like there is clear cut good solution. Something to keep me up at night..... but off the streets.

 

[brufener]

My first thought is that you should keep your gun at low-ready, and not point it at anyone until you are sure that the person needs to be shot.

If I saw an unknown pointing a gun at me I would be much more likely to shoot than if I saw someone holding a gun at low-ready and looking at me.

I suppose this is where pocket carry would be nice, especially if you have it in a jacket pocket. You have the gun ready to go, and can maybe even shoot from inside the pocket (if the BG is close enough so you don't have to aim), but you aren't setting alarm bells off for any fellow GGs.

Critique away!

 

[Jeff White]

The best thing you can do is stay out of other peoples fights. Your CCW permit is not a peace officers commission, nor is it Captain America's shield or Superman's cape. As a CCW holder you are not obligated to use your weapon to save anyone but yourself or someone in your immediate presence. You have no business riding to the sound of the guns. Unless you are 100% clear on what is actually happening, be a good witness, get out your cell phone and call the police. This will eliminate much of the chance of a CCW fratricide.

These situations are dangerous and confusing enough for the police who respond. Other armed citizens jumping in is just going to make the situation worse.

If everyone abided by this rule you could be fairly certain that anyone else was a police officer (who would be identifying himself) or a badguy.

Jeff

 

[Jim March]

Simple. Verbal challenge.

The parties will TELL you what their attitudes are, in a hurry.

 

[Roadwild17]

OK, original setup, I'm imagining kind of a triangle setup between you, the GB, and the unknown.

If the unknown takes out the BG, I would probably swing to the unknown in low-ready and ask "Are you a BG?!?!?" Doing this I’m assuming that the BG is down and now my UNCLEAR threat is the unknown, if he identifies himself as a 'friendly' I would then swing back to the GB and evaluate my 'partners' work.

If I take out the BG, I would probably have tunnel vision on the BG and not notice the unknown until he did something. He would have seen I took out the BG and I’m hopping he would assume I was a friendly and get verbal confirmation. If he’s not a friendly, I would probably get wasted pretty quickly: uhoh: as I continue to watch the known threat (BG).

In my option this is about priorities. I have already decided the BG is a threat and is enough for me to engage, I don’t know the motive or threat status of the unknown. Take out know you know is a threat, and then try to identify other threats or 'friendlys'.

 

[Joe7cri]

Although I routinely disagree with Jeff White, I think he has hit the nail on the head on this one. Stay out of it unless you or a family member are directly involved because chances are, if another CCW holder doesn't shoot you, a LEO will.

 

[meef]

Jeff White:

The best thing you can do is stay out of other peoples fights. Your CCW permit is not a peace officers commission, nor is it Captain America's shield or Superman's cape. As a CCW holder you are not obligated to use your weapon to save anyone but yourself or someone in your immediate presence. You have no business riding to the sound of the guns.

That bears repeating.

Too many people seem too eager to post how they'd use their firearm to save the day.

Dudley Dooright Syndrome.

 

[Technosavant]

+ another for Jeff White.

If you yourself (or a loved one known to you) is not involved, then best thing to do is find cover, call 911, observe & report. With all the potential liabilities involved, if at all possible you want to AVOID drawing a weapon. If you think shooting a BG can have negative consequences, imagine shooting an innocent person simply defending themselves from the BG, and allowing the BG to escape or shoot YOU. Even worse: the innocent person is an undercover cop. Way too many bad things can happen by getting involved in a gunfight on a free-agent basis.

Disclaimer: this position assumes the situation described (you are MYOB, and see a couple armed people exchanging fire). If somebody is obviously cutting down the inoccent (think the mall attacks in Clancy's Teeth of the Tiger, as unlikely as we may consider such a thing), then the ROE change.

 

[Roadwild17]

Sure, I agree with Jeff butt

Let us skip over the part where you decide to engage or not and go straight to you have decided to engage.

I wouldnt want to step into harms way anymore than I would want to just give away my life savings, but the thread already has you there.

The BG is armed and is a definite threat to you or others

IF

The BG is armed and is a definite threat to you

you best bet you would draw, if not why even cary?

 

[Jeff White]

I don't think you can skip over the part where you decide to engage. The possibility of fratricide needs to be part of any engagement decision.

Once you are engaged, it is too late. There will be nothing you can do about some other armed citizen jumping into the fight. At that time what you have is another hostile to engage. Things happen too fast to reliably make a friend or foe decision once the shooting has started. These incidents happen to uniformed police officers and soldiers, especially in the dark.

There is no calling time out so you can update your scorecard as to who is on what side.

What you are trying to do is figure out a way of telling the good guy from the badguy in the space of less then a second. You're talking about private citizens who will be wearing nothing that will allow you to instantly identify them as goodguys. The military has spent billions on systems that will allow us to ID big things like armored vehicles and we still have blue on blue engagements. There is no way anyone is going to come up with any sure way for CCW holders to identify themselves as good guys to other CCW holders.

If I have already drawn my weapon and engaging one hostile, and someone else jumps in, that person has about two tenths of a second to ID himself (to my satisfaction) as friendly because at that point I am performing my multiple target drill. To do otherwise could be fatal to me.

That's why I advocate staying out of other peoples fights.

Jeff

 

[Roadwild17]

So what your saying is that the other guy should stay out of your fight?

 

[Jeff White]

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying and I will stay out of the other guys fight. There are very few circumstances that will allow you to figure out exactly what is coming down so that you can engage the right subject.

I try to handle this type of situation at work by acting from behind cover, illuminating the scene with the brightest light I have and announcing: STOP POLICE, DON'T MOVE!

Charging into a situation is what causes these fratricide incidents. If you aren't 100% sure about what is going on (and in my experience that will not be very often) don't charge in.

Jeff

 

[Correia]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Sadly, CCW situations are rarely black and white, and rarely have perfect answers. Usually the situation is screwed, so no matter what you do, there is a down side, either legally, tactially, or morally. Jeff gives good advice.

This is one that we always roleplay in my CCW classes. I'll have the unknowing student walk into a robbery situation, real clear cut, justifiable, draw and shoot situation. About three seconds after that happens, another actor walks into the scene, and draws their weapon. The second actor is another CCW holder, but the student doesn't know this.

You would be amazed how often guy number 2 gets shot.

I will second the verbal challenge. I was playing number 2 once, this particular student was really on the ball, when he saw me beginning to draw a weapon, he commanded me to stop, place my hands on my head, and get on my knees. And when I say he commanded me, I mean he thundered it like Moses in the Ten Commandments. If you are going to give a verbal challenge, you better put some thunder in it. There was no doubt that if this had been a real situation, he would have killed me in a heartbeat.

 

[Roadwild17]

OK Jeff, I miss understood your first post, I thought you were saying stay out of the fight all together, my bad.

While I have never been in any type of armed life-or-death situation, I can see why #2 guy would get shot. Your mind set is to take out any threat, heart rate is through the roof, your primary concur is self-preservation, you see a threat and instantly shoot. I don’t know how much training it would take to overcome this kind of natural response.

 

[tellner]

I'd probably run like hell. Let the BG and the NAM (New Armed Menace ) duke it out. Find somewhere safe to hide, preferably on the other side of the horizon and call the police who get paid big bucks to handle this sort of thing.

 

[Jim March]

Jim's Rule: never get between any two parties who want a piece of each other.

Never.

If one side is trying to disengage or is getting the %^#@$ kicked out of 'em, do a verbal challenge and if necessary protect human life.

Odd stuff can happen. I once prevented a fight in a store where a manager was confronting a shoplifter and didn't see the accomplice right away. I took a step forward and said clearly and calmly, "I'm not going to let this go two on one". Problem solved by spotting the trouble and making a statement of intent before anything went rodeo.

 

[BullfrogKen]

I will come back and post my thoughts after the teams' debrief session Saturday.


I'll say this, there are many situations where we might encounter another armed individual that isn't part of the problem.


The heated debate we had surrounded one of the several scripted encounters on our sims stages. The scenario was one of a roleplayer acting as a homeowner defending his dwelling on a city block. The practitioner is being pursued by other roleplayers acting as gang members. He was allowed time and room to exit the street and attempt to evade them by way of the "neighbor's" property, upon which they encountered this homeowner with the sim shotgun.

Commanding him to drop his weapon was scripted as ineffective, but he would allow the practitioner safe passage, or even help, if the practitioner displayed the kind of interpersonal skills that communicated he was not a problem to the homeowner.

He was shot for being "non-compliant" far too often.


After this weekend, as I said, I will revisit this thread and offer my opinion. I will also relate some of the comments from the many trainers in attendance at the event that went through the scenario - all names will be withheld - that went on over this very subject.