WarMachine
Member
I agree with Cosmoline. The last thing anyone should want is a hand-to-hand struggle or other close in struggle; especially over a wallet. People don't always hit the ground in one hit like they do in the movies.
Are you at more risk with a CCW in your wallet?
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BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
I know of two instructors, at two different well known shooting schools, that advocate saying those exact words. I've been in classes with one when it was taught to the students, and know of the other from a documented print source.
Personally, I don't agree with it. I think its just a cute thing to tell students there looking to learn tricks from "the Master".
Agree 100%. Its money. Its walking around money. Its a blow to the ego, sure. But, is that worth the risk of getting hurt, facing those medical bills, and time off work, or possibly even death . . . over walking around money? The stakes are a lot higher in adult life than they were in school when it was lunch money, and all we fought with were fists. I'm not advocating we roll over, but I'm suggesting we choose what we decide is worth engaging in mortal combat over prudently.
Cosmoline
Member
I wouldn't be worried about the money, I'd be worried he's still going to kill me. You're not out of imminent peril until he's tossed aside his weapon and found Jesus or he's walked out of range. He can and may kill you at any particular second, so if he's distracted and you have a chance to act you should do so, using all the force you can muster including deadly force. You may never get another chance. Don't assume it's some sort of contractual excange. He may take your money, get angry that you don't have enough, and kill you. Or he may decide to force you to go to an ATM to take more out. Your right to use lethal force to defend yourself does not end when you hand over the wallet. Indeed it has nothing to do with the wallet.
Mannlicher
Member
what I think is that you are worrying way too much about a none issue. Next topic: how many angles can fit on the head of a pin..............
Given that the head of a pin is circular and the angle can be of any width, an infinite number of angles can fit on the head of a pin.
As a young teenage, I got mugged at knifepoint. I had money in one pocket - $2.00. As I handed it to the mugger, I ran past him and didn't stop for a block or two. Worked fine. Reactionary gap and fleeing in terror seems a good strategy if one can.
Give some money and run, if you can. My, what a cowardly way to act in the gun world.
Worked in FOF a few times. I remember an Insights class where there was a simulated conveniences store robbery. I was outside and the door flew open and we saw a herd of elephantine, well armed men thundering out the door in what Hamilton called a major hauling of 'alpha, sigma, sigma'.
Also keep running aways. In one exercise, a guy fled the convenience store and then waited outside to watch. The BG ran out and shot him in passing. I learned to head over the horizon.
As a young teenage, I got mugged at knifepoint. I had money in one pocket - $2.00. As I handed it to the mugger, I ran past him and didn't stop for a block or two. Worked fine. Reactionary gap and fleeing in terror seems a good strategy if one can.
Give some money and run, if you can. My, what a cowardly way to act in the gun world.
Worked in FOF a few times. I remember an Insights class where there was a simulated conveniences store robbery. I was outside and the door flew open and we saw a herd of elephantine, well armed men thundering out the door in what Hamilton called a major hauling of 'alpha, sigma, sigma'.
Also keep running aways. In one exercise, a guy fled the convenience store and then waited outside to watch. The BG ran out and shot him in passing. I learned to head over the horizon.
BT, DT.....at gunpoint!!
(even forced visit to ATM!!)
Now I isolate everything independantly, so I can "fish" out whatever's demanded. Seriously. Was threatened with "now we know where you live, and we'll come back....etc".
IMHO carrying CCW ID can only make you MORE of a victim, but the law says you must. Meanwhile, stalling for time seems a "good" thing, so slowing down events helps (time and distance cut short the trip to my home for further theft). NOT an experience I favor repeating, and so constantly practise preventing it. Calling me paranoid will not change my methods, even and expecially while employed. (a LOT left-out between the lines, intentionally; you can imagine.)
(even forced visit to ATM!!)Now I isolate everything independantly, so I can "fish" out whatever's demanded. Seriously. Was threatened with "now we know where you live, and we'll come back....etc".
IMHO carrying CCW ID can only make you MORE of a victim, but the law says you must. Meanwhile, stalling for time seems a "good" thing, so slowing down events helps (time and distance cut short the trip to my home for further theft). NOT an experience I favor repeating, and so constantly practise preventing it. Calling me paranoid will not change my methods, even and expecially while employed. (a LOT left-out between the lines, intentionally; you can imagine.)
Sean Dempsey
Member
If you aren't carrying a remotely detonated explosive wallet, you don't even deserve to have a CCW.
tanksoldier
Member
Either you're Ueshiba Morihei, or you dangerously underestimate the danger of facing an armed attacker while unarmed.
Combattives are better than nothing, but when you yourself are armed they best serve to buy you time and distance to deploy your own weapon.
Especially when facing an knife-weilding attacker at grapple range while unarmed yourself you will almost certainly be cut, perhaps several times, unless you are extrordinarily skilled (or lucky) AND your opponent is relatively unskilled (or unlucky). A handgun in the hands of your opponent is alsmost as bad, and if he has any sense he will be far enough away that he can shoot you while you attempt to close to grappel range.
If your attacker is distracted by rifling thru your wallet (could happen, he might want to force you to make ATM withdrawls, etc) your best bet, if armed with a handgun, is to take a step back while drawing your weapon... and then act as the situation dictates.
I strongly urge the poster to reevaluate his assumptions.
Combattives are better than nothing, but when you yourself are armed they best serve to buy you time and distance to deploy your own weapon.
Especially when facing an knife-weilding attacker at grapple range while unarmed yourself you will almost certainly be cut, perhaps several times, unless you are extrordinarily skilled (or lucky) AND your opponent is relatively unskilled (or unlucky). A handgun in the hands of your opponent is alsmost as bad, and if he has any sense he will be far enough away that he can shoot you while you attempt to close to grappel range.
If your attacker is distracted by rifling thru your wallet (could happen, he might want to force you to make ATM withdrawls, etc) your best bet, if armed with a handgun, is to take a step back while drawing your weapon... and then act as the situation dictates.
I strongly urge the poster to reevaluate his assumptions.
The Amigo
Member
QUOTE: Your right to use lethal force to defend yourself does not end when you hand over the wallet. Indeed it has nothing to do with the wallet.
If you do decide to shoot somebody over a wallet (unwise decision) make certain he is standing facing towards you. If you shoot somebody walking away. The jury and the prosecutors will hang u for using deadly force when there's no longer a perceived threat because they will try to paint it as the BG was walking away and is no longer a harm 4 u. Remember most states allow you to carry a weapon for self defense against a real lethal attack not a what if he was... And a guy shot in the back or sideways as he flees does not look good 4 u. Don't ever say i shot him cause i thought he might want more money, say I was in fear of my live and i had to stop him.
If you do decide to shoot somebody over a wallet (unwise decision) make certain he is standing facing towards you. If you shoot somebody walking away. The jury and the prosecutors will hang u for using deadly force when there's no longer a perceived threat because they will try to paint it as the BG was walking away and is no longer a harm 4 u. Remember most states allow you to carry a weapon for self defense against a real lethal attack not a what if he was... And a guy shot in the back or sideways as he flees does not look good 4 u. Don't ever say i shot him cause i thought he might want more money, say I was in fear of my live and i had to stop him.
tanksoldier
Member
As was stated above and quoted in your own post, this isn't about the wallet. It's about the threat to your life posed by an armed person who is threatening you. The demand, whether for money, wallet or autograph, is irrelevant.
Firing at someone who has just slashed at you with a knife can easily result in bullets striking the side or back of an attacker.
Rather than tryingb to make the crime scene look good for you, you're probably better off shooting when you reasonably believe you're in danger... and not shooting if you're not.
Firing at someone who has just slashed at you with a knife can easily result in bullets striking the side or back of an attacker.
Rather than tryingb to make the crime scene look good for you, you're probably better off shooting when you reasonably believe you're in danger... and not shooting if you're not.
The law allows you to use force while in immediate danger. Once you hand over the items if they are looking in the wallet and you draw they can run away taking everything with them and you cannot legaly stop them at that point. Yes criminals force victims to go to atms, or even kill them for no reason sometimes after they have complied, but will an average person on a jury that lives in thier own little world see things the same way when a prosecutor is telling them how to think? Probably not.
Also be aware that the court costs for being involved in even a justified shooting are going to exceed any amount you are likely to be carrying on your person. Allowing someone else to benefit at your expense by victimizing you is a tough thing to accept and you may decide to not allow it, and such a choice may be legal if you are still in immediate danger. However know that such a decision even if justified will result in criminal and civil court costs. If you are in a very rare location with a pro self defense cop responding you might, though very unlikely, avoid criminal court. But your still likely to face wrongful death and whatever else the family of the 'victim' that was robbing you can think up in civil court. The family then gets a chance to legaly rob you and benefit financialy at your expense. If at that point you still succeed in all legal scenarios, you still have the expenses of the good lawyer that helped you succeed. No matter the outcome it will likely cost you more than you had on your person to rob in the first place.
A CCW in the wallet does pose a danger to you. In fact they know if they see you on the street in the future (and don't take it to the address on your ID etc) they know they can get a pistol from you. They may clobber you with something from behind and never give you a chance to use what they know you have, or they could use thier own weapon to cover you while they take it. They might notice you while with thier 'homies' and come seeking a new pistol as a group. A CCW is a tool, that is most effective if it is unexpected, but also a valuable item that criminals would like to have, and may pursue if they know you have it. It is a real risk, but what is a legal practical better alternative?
Also be aware that the court costs for being involved in even a justified shooting are going to exceed any amount you are likely to be carrying on your person. Allowing someone else to benefit at your expense by victimizing you is a tough thing to accept and you may decide to not allow it, and such a choice may be legal if you are still in immediate danger. However know that such a decision even if justified will result in criminal and civil court costs. If you are in a very rare location with a pro self defense cop responding you might, though very unlikely, avoid criminal court. But your still likely to face wrongful death and whatever else the family of the 'victim' that was robbing you can think up in civil court. The family then gets a chance to legaly rob you and benefit financialy at your expense. If at that point you still succeed in all legal scenarios, you still have the expenses of the good lawyer that helped you succeed. No matter the outcome it will likely cost you more than you had on your person to rob in the first place.
A CCW in the wallet does pose a danger to you. In fact they know if they see you on the street in the future (and don't take it to the address on your ID etc) they know they can get a pistol from you. They may clobber you with something from behind and never give you a chance to use what they know you have, or they could use thier own weapon to cover you while they take it. They might notice you while with thier 'homies' and come seeking a new pistol as a group. A CCW is a tool, that is most effective if it is unexpected, but also a valuable item that criminals would like to have, and may pursue if they know you have it. It is a real risk, but what is a legal practical better alternative?
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