Gang activity is now a Homeland Security Threat??

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Lawdog +10. You said it.

These are foreign gangs that are being targeted as partners with the Islamic terrorists. MS-13 and their ilk can be used to transport nukes into the U.S. on behalf of the Islamic terrorists for money and/or drugs.
 
How bout 5 more....

Inter-Departmental TEMPORARY Joint Task Force

using existing LE methods and statutes against criminally focused, not ostensibly "terrorist" in motives or actions, wide-ranging gangs.

It could accomplish the same thing without widening the net of HS to purely criminal (though large scale) activity.

It doesn't have to be short term as long as it is recognized that it is not a permanant broadening of "anti-terrorist" powers against non-terrorist criminals, also would remove it from the secrecy and lack of oversight of "national security".

That way it would make it clear it is cop work by cops for strictly criminal suppression purposes without a broadening of mandate.

Oh, and show me the credible evidence that such negotiations (between terrs and gangs) have taken place and are in the process of being carried out. Otherwise we could as easily say that those who would place personal liberty ahead of "national security" (like, say, us) are potentially allies of those who wish to overthrow the current intrusive government.

It's a slippery slope and RICO shows us there's a lot of prosecutors out there just itching to go a-sledding.
 
Won't stop them from coming into our country. King George is a the border with his welcome sign. Maybe now that the King got CAFTA through think that will slow them down? lol
 
Marshall,

Too Many Choices likes Too Many Ladies for that ;). Besides, I think my guns might start feeling neglected if I started spending more of my disposable income on the ladies, rather than them ...

PS:The idea of some woman getting HALF MY GUNS TO DO WITH AS SHE PLEASES, is far too alarming for me :uhoh: ...
 
One more time, slowly.

This operation was conducted by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). IC is, among other things, what used to be Customs, Immigration and Border Patrol.

In other words, this isn't mission creep, it isn't a police state and they're not coming for your guns.

This is the border cops doing their jobs: going after the worst criminals that have crossed into our country.

Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) is one component that completes Border and Transportation Security (BTS), which is underneath the Department of Homeland Security (DHS).
- http://www.ice.gov/graphics/about/index.htm
The agencies slated to become part of the Department of Homeland Security will be housed in one of four major directorates: Border and Transportation Security, Emergency Preparedness and Response, Science and Technology, and Information Analysis and Infrastructure Protection.

The Border and Transportation Security directorate will bring the major border security and transportation operations under one roof, including:

* The U.S. Customs Service (Treasury)
* The Immigration and Naturalization Service (part) (Justice)
- http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/editorial/editorial_0133.xml
 
Good job, Matt, but consider the quote in the AP article referenced in the root post:

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff called the gangs "a threat to our homeland security and ... a very urgent law enforcement priority."

If it's not homeland security per se, don't call it that. It's just as irritating as calling the war in Iraq the "war on terror".

Also don't call it "a law enforcement priority", if you have opted to prosecute immigration violations, pursuing deportations, instead of opting for criminal prosecutions, more likely an FBI matter..
 
If it's not homeland security per se, don't call it that. It's just as irritating as calling the war in Iraq the "war on terror".

It is Homeland Security. Foreign illegals carrying out terrorist activities and potentially cooperating with Al-Queada isn't Homeland Security?

And who are we fighting in Iraq? The Girl Scouts? Zarquawi, Al Quada #2 operates there with hs supporters.

I see you received your DNC talking points this morning.
 
You really think it is about homeland security? 40,000 per Mo. just walk across the Arizona border alone.Then add the 40k to how many cross into the other states King George don't think it is a threat. But guess he would have to crawl out of Fox A** to see if it is a threat. The war in Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism. Remember all but one of the terrorist was a Saudi. Al-Queada was never in Iraq until we attacked Iraq. WMD? Now the Kings own people want you to believe it was bad intelligence. I voted for the King twice. Shows you how smart I was. GWB has done more to sell our our rights then any President in the last 60 years.
1- Homeland Security
2- Campaign Reform
3-An illegal war based on nothing but lies
4- Now CAFTA
5- Any bets on a guest worker program?
 
Lostone,

Don't foret the ,"Patriot" ACT :uhoh: ! Man that title gives me the creeps...Like if you don't support it you are a terrorist or un-American :cuss: !
 
I understand that these rules make it easier for law enforcement to do whatever it is they're doing. I understand that in many instances, they're working tirelessly to make the world a better place. But if I'm convinced to buy the Justice Department an RPG for use against three-headed-bears-from-space, I'm gonna get pissed when they start using it for rat control in my neighborhood.

It's the same thing when meth cooks are charged with creating "weapons of mass destruction," and the same charges are being used against (failed) pipe bombers. It's the same thing when average folks are having their savings/possessions taken, without compensation or charges, on the grounds that the asset in question may have some relation to illegal profits.

Don't pass a law to target "terrorists," or "mobsters," or "drug pushers," or some other boogyman, then turn around and use it against my neighbors.

That ain't right.
 
Foreign illegals carrying out terrorist activities and potentially cooperating with Al-Queada isn't Homeland Security?

Boy, you really bought in. Show me one of those arrested who has any such connection. "Potentially" I'll buy, but this incident is not fighting terrorism in the usual sense of the word.

And who are we fighting in Iraq? The Girl Scouts? Zarquawi, Al Quada #2 operates there with hs supporters.

It's not a question of who we are fighting. It is a question of how the conflict was represented in the beginning and still is, because it was politically palatable and designed to gain support from the post 9/11 mentality. Actually I support the real reason for being there, but it is not a pursuit of Osama bin Laden. My understanding is that Zarquawi is an agent of Iran, active only in Iraq.

I see you received your DNC talking points this morning.

You can't be referring to me. I'm just trying to be objective. Save the ad hominem for a Democrat. ;) They are not always wrong, by the way. However, they are so frustrated, shrill, and nasty that I avoid them like the plague.
 
Just what agencies come under the Dept. of Homeland Security

History: Who Became Part of the Department?
The agencies slated to become part of the Department of Homeland Security will be housed in one of four major directorates: Border and Transportation Security, Emergency Preparedness and Response, Science and Technology, and Information Analysis and Infrastructure Protection.

The Border and Transportation Security directorate will bring the major border security and transportation operations under one roof, including:

• The U.S. Customs Service (Treasury)
• The Immigration and Naturalization Service (part) (Justice)
• The Federal Protective Service
• The Transportation Security Administration (Transportation)
• Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (Treasury)
• Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (part)(Agriculture)
• Office for Domestic Preparedness (Justice)

The Emergency Preparedness and Response directorate will oversee domestic disaster preparedness training and coordinate government disaster response. It will bring together:

• The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)
• Strategic National Stockpile and the National Disaster Medical
System (HHS)
• Nuclear Incident Response Team (Energy)
• Domestic Emergency Support Teams (Justice)
• National Domestic Preparedness Office (FBI)

The Science and Technology directorate will seek to utilize all scientific and technological advantages when securing the homeland. The following assets will be part of this effort:

• CBRN Countermeasures Programs (Energy)
• Environmental Measurements Laboratory (Energy)
• National BW Defense Analysis Center (Defense)
• Plum Island Animal Disease Center (Agriculture)

The Information Analysis and Infrastructure Protection directorate will analyze intelligence and information from other agencies (including the CIA, FBI, DIA and NSA) involving threats to homeland security and evaluate vulnerabilities in the nation's infrastructure. It will bring together:

• Federal Computer Incident Response Center (GSA)
• National Communications System (Defense)
• National Infrastructure Protection Center (FBI)
• Energy Security and Assurance Program (Energy)

The Secret Service and the Coast Guard will also be located in the Department of Homeland Security, remaining intact and reporting directly to the Secretary. In addition, the INS adjudications and benefits programs will report directly to the Deputy Secretary as the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services.
 
This is no surprise. Every expansion of police power for a specific purpose is always used for ever expanding purposes. Eventually, people forget that it was supposed to be an exception for only an extreme purpose, and then it gets expanded again. It's like the old gold fish in an aquarium analogy. The generation that is shocked by it will eventually be dead, and the next generation thinks of it as the norm. Eventually, you have a police state. There was a time, not too long ago, when a bunch of twelve year old boys could stroll through town with shotguns over their shoulders. If it happened today, there'd be a SWAT team there in minutes. These things are done very gradually for a reason.
 
<SARCASM ON>
Since some of you are absolutely tied in knots at the very idea that Homeland Security might be doing anything not 100% related to terrorism, here's a suggestion: let the Immigration Control and Enforcement agents stop and questions illegals and if the agents don't think the illegals are terrorists, just send the illegals on their merry way. There! That should take care of the whole "mission creep" thing.
</SARCASM OFF>
 
You really think it is about homeland security? 40,000 per Mo. just walk across the Arizona border alone.Then add the 40k to how many cross into the other states King George don't think it is a threat. But guess he would have to crawl out of Fox A** to see if it is a threat. The war in Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism. Remember all but one of the terrorist was a Saudi. Al-Queada was never in Iraq until we attacked Iraq. WMD? Now the Kings own people want you to believe it was bad intelligence. I voted for the King twice. Shows you how smart I was. GWB has done more to sell our our rights then any President in the last 60 years.
1- Homeland Security
2- Campaign Reform
3-An illegal war based on nothing but lies
4- Now CAFTA
5- Any bets on a guest worker program?
Absolutely!
 
There was a time, not too long ago, when a bunch of twelve year old boys could stroll through town with shotguns over their shoulders. If it happened today, there'd be a SWAT team there in minutes. These things are done very gradually for a reason.
__________________
100% right. I grew up in Illinois. I was about 30 miles South of Chicago in Will County. The road I grew up on in the 50s was RT66. Remember well at that age walking or riding my bike to the creek with my 22 to shoot crab apples. Many times seen the police and all they did was wave at me. All the freedoms we have lost through the years. A good part of them since 911. Guess i'm kind of glad i'm on the back side of time
 
I grew up in Illinois. I was about 30 miles South of Chicago in Will County. The road I grew up on in the 50s was RT66. Remember well at that age walking or riding my bike to the creek with my 22 to shoot crab apples. Many times seen the police and all they did was wave at me. All the freedoms we have lost through the years. A good part of them since 911.
I know you like to blame "King George" for everything, but the gun laws in Illinois? Please explain how Bush is responsible for those.
 
Guess you look at someone who takes so many of our rights away as a good leader. Easy to see how we lose them when people don't see or care what happens. GWB did'n make the laws in Illinois. But you look back over the last 50 years more have had a Republican govenor then not.
 
Again, I don't think anyone has a problem with immigration doing their job but, again, that isn't how it was phrased.

It doesn't NEED to be a "matter of national security" for INS to act. They can bust illegals as is, it being "illegal" immigration and all. :rolleyes:

My problem is that every time we give the .gov more powers specifically aimed at particular threats they have every time immediately tried to figure out "legal" ways to use those powers far beyond the stated, intended purpose.

For example: NFA '34, RICO and drug asset forfeiture laws to name a very short list. And every time it's "to better fight crime" or "national security" or some other trumped up justification.

It's about power and it needs to be constrained and held to the minimum necessary to do the job for the minimum amount of time required.
 
There was a time, not too long ago, when a bunch of twelve year old boys could stroll through town with shotguns over their shoulders. If it happened today, there'd be a SWAT team there in minutes. These things are done very gradually for a reason.

I'm sure that's true with many of us. But get real, that has to do with many more things than this discussion.

Population growth
City growth
Rural shrinkage
Crime growth
etc.

The more of this we have, the more restricted we will likely become by default. So, it don't look purdy does it?





Besides, I'm getting sick of this bash Bush crap, the scapegoat for everything. If I remember correctly, after 9/11 everyone was hollering, "whew, glad Bush won, not Gore. He's the man we need, glad he won." Guess you all would rather have Gore or Kerry? (sigh). After 9/11 you wouldn't be able to hold a damn gun if a Dem had been elected.

What in the world does everyone think should have been done? The Democrats were all over the Administration to come up with a "plan" for security in the USA. So, Bush comes up with Homeland security, to try to get all of the agencies to communicate and work together better. Remember the uproar of the FBI agents when in front of Congress testifying about reporting of some of the terrorist but their memo's were basically trashed or missed all together by the right people? Remember the CIA and FBI fighting, no cooperation between the two? Everyone wanted answers and a plan.

Well, your President gave you one. A very specific plan. Not only did he give us a plan, the Dems supported it. We haven't had a successful terrorist strike in the USA since.

We attack the Taliban in Afghanistan, we make it to where they had free elections and they no longer live under Taliban Rule. We have started them on their way to a democracy. Pretty good feat!

We had an insane dictator in Iraq that had attacked it's neighbors, launched rockets at Israel, gassed his own people to death and was paying terrorist and their families $25,000.00 per suicide bomber, a frigging terrorist recruiter! Al Qaeda had camps in Northern Iraq. There were terrorist fleeing to Iraq from Afghanistan. Their insane dictator was supporting terrorism.

We get reports, though false, maybe, that Iraq was developing WMD. (I still think they were and had too much time to get rid of them) Even Ex President Clinton said that was true. The vast opinion by Dems and Republicans was, "we can't let that happen." Saddam had years and years to comply, he wouldn't. He was warned, let the inspectors back in, he wouldn't. It became a joke, he was winning the game and making the UN and the USA look like flunkies. The UN and other nations, as we know now, were being bought off. Bush gave Saddam every chance in the world to operate in peace and comply with the UN, Saddam chose not to do so, we did not make that decision for him. What good are sanctions if they are not backed up? What good are repeated warnings if they are not backed up. The UN wimps, along with the countries "doing business with Saddam", were trying to block any military measure, now we know why and now we know why Saddam figured he had us taken care of.

Now, Iraq as well as Afghanistan are working on democracys. If that is the only thing that gets acheived, it's worth it for us to have two more friends and democratic countries in that part of the world, especially in this day and time.

We have a leader, a President, whose job is to protect this nation from threats and future threats. Everyone agreed, Saddam was a threat. Again, Clinton, when in office, stated the same, as well as later, he supported military measures in Iraq. The President did what was not only expected of him but, demanded as well.

Backseat driving is easy for 4th graders. It's easy for those that are still fuming that Bush was elected to begin with, to find blame and use anything they can to try to be able to tell themselves, "ha, I was right." "Here is a man that wants to rule the world, the big evil US President Bush, King George." Well, I'm here to tell you, considering what this President was dealt, I think he's done a hell of a job. I know of no man that we had to choose from that could have gone into that office and done half as good a job at handling what he has was given.

Do I disagree with the way some things were and are carried out, sure. Are the boarders a problem that I think he's missing, absolutely. But some of you would blame Bush if you were denied a CCL. :rolleyes:
 
Guess you all would rather have Gore or Kerry? (sigh).
He'd probably have lobbed a couple of cruise missiles at them, and that would have been that. These wars do a lot more good for the countries we attack than for us. Not our job to free people from dictators and then flood their countries with US tax dollars to support their new socialist governments that we set up for them.
After 9/11 you wouldn't be able to hold a damn gun if a Dem had been elected.
You are probably wrong on that, if history is any judge. With a Gore or Kerry in the presidency, we'd not only have huge majorities in the House and Senate, but they'd be galvanized to stop anything he tried to do in terms of gun control, transforming us into a police state or sending all of our industrial jobs to India and Mexico, because we'd hold their feet to the fire. Those same Republican Congressmen and Senators, however, under Bush don't feel they have the popular support to go up against a Republican president.

And don't give me the BS about Supreme Court Nominees. A decent Congress can neuter the US Supreme Court at will in multiple ways if they felt the heat from their constituents enough to do it.
 
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