GANGSTAS IN THE MILITARY

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I found the following on Michelle Malkin's site:

GANGSTAS IN THE MILITARY
By Michelle Malkin · May 04, 2006 01:00 PM

Been meaning to get to this disturbing Chicago Sun-Times story on gangbangers in the US armed forces. Reporter Frank Main publicized photos taken by Army reservist Jeffrey Stoleson in Iraq. These are just a few of hundreds of images of defaced military vehicles, barricades, etc., that Stoleson has snapped:

ganggraf.jpg


The problem is a longstanding one, but according to Stoleson, higher-ups discourage troops from calling attention to it: Main reports:

"I have identified 320 soldiers as gang members from April 2002 to present," said Scott Barfield, a Defense Department gang detective at Fort Lewis in Washington state. "I think that's the tip of the iceberg."

Of paramount concern is whether gang-affiliated soldiers' training will make them deadly urban warriors when they return to civilian life and if some are using their access to military equipment to supply gangs at home, said Barfield and other experts.

'They don't try to hide it'

Jeffrey Stoleson, an Army Reserve sergeant in Iraq for almost a year, said he has taken hundreds of photos of gang graffiti there.

In a storage yard in Taji, about 18 miles north of Baghdad, dozens of tanks were vandalized with painted gang symbols, Stoleson said in a phone interview from Iraq. He said he also took pictures of graffiti at Camp Scania, about 108 miles southeast of Baghdad, and Camp Anaconda, about 40 miles north of Baghdad. Much of the graffiti was by Chicago-based gangs, he said.

...Because of the extreme danger of his mission in Iraq, Stoleson said he does not relish the idea of working alongside gang members, whom he does not trust. Stoleson said he once reported to a supervisor that he suspected a company of soldiers in Iraq was rife with gang members.

"My E-8 [supervising sergeant] told me not to ruffle their feathers because they were doing a good job," he said.

Stoleson said he has spotted soldiers in Iraq with tattoos signifying their allegiance to the Vice Lords and the Simon City Royals, another street gang spawned in Chicago.

"They don't try to hide it," Stoleson said.

The safety concerns are not hypothetical. Last year, I reported on a cop-killing Marine, Lance Corporal Andres Raya--who had been caught on videotape with Latino gang members smoking marijuana and throwing gang signs after breaking into a school gym, stealing computer equipment, tearing up an American flag, and spelling out "F--- BUSH" with the pieces--which were left on the gym floor.

As I noted at the time, the question isn't what got into Raya when he entered the military. The question is why and how Raya -- who police say had a propensity for violence well before he joined the Marines -- got into our military in the first place. Few have challenged the Pentagon's decision to let admitted illegal aliens--some using illegal fake documents-- join the armed forces. Now, the FBI has assigned investigators to probe ties between US soldiers and gang alliances:

Of particular concern are reports that the Folk Nation, consisting of more than a dozen gangs in the Chicago area, is placing young members in the military in an effort to gather information about weapons and tactics, said FBI Special Agent Andrea Simmons, who is based in El Paso, Texas.

"Our understanding is that they find members without a criminal history so that they can join, and once they get out, they will have a new set of skills that they can apply to criminal enterprises," Simmons said. "This could be a concern for any law enforcement agency that has to deal with gangs on a daily basis."

Chicago gang symbols can be found amid other graffiti, mostly in latrines on U.S. military bases such as Camp Fallujah in Iraq's Anbar Province.

There's an interesting discussion over at Military.com.

The White House seems to be shrugging off the reports.

Question: Do we really want thugs who mark their territory like animals and swear allegiance to criminal enterprises serving in uniform? Are we nuts?

The question answers itself.

***


Comments?
Otherguy
 
While on recruiting duty in Southern California in the early '90s ... I brought in quite a few young men with gang connections. I knew it, they knew I knew; I was reasonably certain some of these young males had participated in numerous illegal activities, from drug-dealing to murder. I worked my butt of to try to disqualify as many of these applicants -- mind you, they were all volunteers -- from enlistment. I was successful in many cases. In just as many cases, though, many of these guys found their way on to active duty. Some didn't make it through boot camp. Some did, and ended up in the fleet. Almost all had totally clean records. Many had been picked up by law enforcement for questioning, but never charged or convicted of any crimes.

The armed forces are, of course, a microcosm of our society. We include all elements in the military, all ethnic groups, all religions, rural farm boys to urban gangstas.

Personally, I feel the problem has been exaggerated. No doubt, there are many former and probably too many still active gangbangers on active duty. Bottom line is, I found most of the young men out of the urban areas who joined up were trying to escape the gang life, and ended up renouncing their gang affiliations, especially after a bit of travel and exposure to other ways of life.
 
Let's ask ourselves if we prefer them here doing "gangsta shyiit", or there fighting for the country. Also, while massive redemption is dubious, it may not be impossible for at least some to straighten their lives a bit when exposed to something other than "the 'hood".

The problem is how to handle such. If you put them in mixed platoons, it is good for their training and you might have more control, but the lives of other soldiers might be endangered to a greater extent. If you put them in "gang" platoons, in essence you create penal battallions, soviet-style, and then they will find it easier to continue the lifestyle. Maybe the trick is to keep them busy, because guard duty may give them too much time on their hands.
 
And then there's FT Hood.

From everything I've heard (I've never been) the name fits the description. where most military posts are relatively good crime area's I've repeatedly heard guys who were transferring there get advice of the "Don't get caught alone" type.

what makes it more sickening, is that some of the stories say that these military gangs prey upon other military members.

In my opinion, your in the army, Thats your gang. you hang with your squad, you watch each other's backs, not some guy from a different battalion just because he's latino and no one else in your squad is. The bond between combat troops should rise above that crap.
 
In my opinion, your in the army, Thats your gang. you hang with your squad, you watch each other's backs, not some guy from a different battalion just because he's latino and no one else in your squad is. The bond between combat troops should rise above that crap.

This is not a personal attack by any means, but I have to point out that the
above statement is completely naive to the point of foolishness. That is some
kind of Hollywood junk straight out of HBO's "Band of brothers" that has
somehow made it's way into the popular conciousness.

It is patently false.

As another poster said, the military is a microcosm of society at large.
You think that just because someone can pass a PT test, had no felonies
on record, and signed on a dotted line means that they are somehow more
trustworthy or upstanding than the average person on the street?

If you do, well then I'd like to make you a great deal on some oceanfront
property out in Arizona!

People in the military are no different than anybody else. Forget all that
"Band of brothers" junk you saw, and know that this is not your daddy's
military, or the military you might have served in way back when.

There are a lot of problems with gangs and cliques in the military.
You deal with it. No amount of punitive action will cure that. It just is.
You may as well try to regulate all human contact at all levels.
You just can't do it.

I think that a lot of people have this idea that the problem is limited to
black people and inner city type gangs. It's not though. It's all over.

You have the Filipino mafia, you've got the Vatos, the brothers, and of
course the white pride section. Is it predjudicial to good order and discipline?
Of course! But like anywhere else, (and whether you'd like to admit it or not)
you find your own little group, and get along with everyone else the best
you can.

That's human nature baby, and the military is no different.
 
I had pointed this information out in another thread, where I was then beaten for my efforts. Gangs are everywhere in this country, from the street thugs we know and recognize to attorneys, its is an embeded problem that is not going anywhere.
 
Let's ask ourselves if we prefer them here doing "gangsta shyiit", or there fighting for the country.

I'd prefer that there be no possibilty of friends I have over there getting fragged for "disrespecting" such lowlifes...with the same-as-here-result among the questioned that "Nobody saw nothin'." :fire:

What happened to dishonorable discharges? Do we really want to train lowlife trash in effective, organized squad combat and then LET THEM BACK OUT on our streets? Where they can effectively wage literal gangwars and have lethally better tactics than civilian police?

People in the military are no different than anybody else. Forget all that
"Band of brothers" junk you saw, and know that this is not your daddy's
military, or the military you might have served in way back when.

If it's not, it's broken and needs to be fixed. One of the best stories I'd read on the defeat of racism in wartime in at least one instance was written by one of the Tuskeegee Airmen. He was shot down in his Mustang, (as he said, a dud 20mm round came right up in front of the stick and through the canopy, just missing 'the jewels' (!) ) and he ended up in a POW camp...as the only black guy in a camp full of white Americans. But then word got around the camp that during all the recent missions, the "red tails", as they were called, since they all painted the tails of their P-51's red, had not lost a SINGLE bomber under their watch. And he was approached by a line of airmen...who shook his hand.
 
This is not a personal attack by any means, but I have to point out that the above statement is completely naive to the point of foolishness. That is some kind of Hollywood junk straight out of HBO's "Band of brothers" that has somehow made it's way into the popular conciousness.
That's close to my experience in the Army -- infantry in Germany, early nineties.

I knew guys who had been gang members (with scars where tats had been) that were hard -- go from laughing with a buddy until someone disrespected them, then bam out of nowhere, then back to laughing. Had 'em drop "extra" girls by my room when they discovered they had more than they could handle, buy me drinks, go into the worst parts of a new town together looking for trouble. We didn't have a lot in common, but most of those folks would have died for me -- even if it was a stupid fight I started, they disagreed with it, and thought I deserved the consequences. It wasn't an "I like Zeanah" thing, it was a "we stick up for each other" thing.

Yeah, I went to school in West Hills with one of the Ferrari grandchildren and went to Magic Johnson's daughter's 16th birthday party (15th? Didn't actually know her at the time...) and got to date a few girls that attended $9k/semester high schools, and they were from Compton and like places.

But I never doubted that if I ended up in Compton years later and Elton C. was there, he'd back me up. Never the first doubt.

I think your experience in the service didn't mirror mine. At all.

I learned about those sorts of bonds in the service. I'm not sure they can be forged anywhere else.

People in the military are no different than anybody else. Forget all that "Band of brothers" junk you saw, and know that this is not your daddy's military, or the military you might have served in way back when.
Then things have changed in the last dozed years. Maybe things are different with cooks than with 11C's?

There are a lot of problems with gangs and cliques in the military. You deal with it. No amount of punitive action will cure that. It just is. You may as well try to regulate all human contact at all levels. You just can't do it.
We had that -- we were in Friedberg and would go to to the local club called "Studio." Wasn't uncommon for some punks from another infantry unit at KG to jump a few of us on the way. We never went alone. hell, sometimes we'd go with members of the other 11C platoon on post (another unit entirely) for safety reasons. It was closer to a high school rivalry more than a racial thing, though. Those with racial issues (like the black E2 that threw a metal chock-block at the SPC in charge of his detail rather than follow the orders everyone else were following) had a rougher time than the rest of us.
 
Defacing military property in time of war? FOR SHAME! Next thing they'll be painting scantily clad women on the noses of aircraft.
 
It seems to me that if military training can't remake gang bangers into reasonable citizens whose primary loyalty is to their country and fellow soldier, then nothing will.

On the other hand, I suppose it's possible that military training no longer pursues that as a goal, or if it does, fails to adequately assess the results of the training and reject the failures, sending them back to whence they came.
 
In the future, they'll menace us with the hobgoblin of "former military members using their training for illegal activity" and claim that the solution is a further erosion of civil liberties.

Or maybe I'm just cynical because it's Saturday and I'm in the office.
 
In the future, they'll menace us with the hobgoblin of "former military members using their training for illegal activity" and claim that the solution is a further erosion of civil liberties.

This one started in the 80s, there might be a grain of truth in it, but as you say, the proposed solution does invariably involve some kind of invasive social control.
 
Fu-Man Shoe said:
People in the military are no different than anybody else. Forget all that "Band of brothers" junk you saw, and know that this is not your daddy's military, or the military you might have served in way back when.
If you are correct (and you probably are), then you have stated the crux of the problem. My daddy's military won World War 2. The military I served in "way back when" was a military in which Army guys might call Marines "jarheads," but when the SHTF any military person could be absolutely certain that if there was another military person in the room, they didn't have to cover their 6:00. There was no such thing as graffitti on any Army post where I was stationed, and other than ONE non-violent incident involving a certain individual who "borrowed" some money from a mate's wallet without bothering to ask (he received a blanket party for his trouble, and that was that) we had essentially zero crime. Very definitely no need to travel with company on post or be afraid to be outdoors alone after dark.

If the military has devolved from that (as it quite obviously has), then we as a country have lost a great deal. And you should not be exhorting us to accept that as the status quo, you should be joining in whatever efforts are being made to eradicate the problem. Totally.

The argument that the military represents a microcosm of society is a non-starter with me. The military is not and was never intended to be a cross-section os society. The military is supposed to be a cut above, holding to and performing to a higher standard than the macrocosm of general society. If we have polluted the military to the point that it is now a representative cross-section (or microcosm) of society, then we have shot ourselves in our societal foot.
 
If we have polluted the military to the point that it is now a representative cross-section (or microcosm) of society, then we have shot ourselves in our societal foot.

I fully agree. That's actually quite succicent.

Unfortunately, that's how it is at this point. The military ain't what it
used to be, evidently. Frankly, there's not much you can really do
about it either, other than try and clean up your own little corner of it.

Then again, a lot of what we're talking about here depends on where
you are, what command you're at...so on and so forth.

This quote particularly amused me, however.

Maybe things are different with cooks than with 11C's?

Undoubtedly. So shush up and keep stirring them beans, cookie! :rolleyes:
 
Just because someone had a past affiliation with a gang doesn't mean that life goes on that way in the military.
In the past, team sports and outdoor skills were valued in new recruits and they still are, but I think that a gang has much in common with a small unit in the military. Discipline, respect, trust and acting together for a common goal-could this be considered good training?
If you think about it, war is a series of what would normally be criminal acts except that they are performed with the sanction of the state.
I have seen the military help a great many people become better in every way. They can't help them all, but they do give them an equal chance.
We have never failed to field a military that was up to the task. To call into question the character or courage of those now serving is to spit on those who served in the past. Old breed, new breed-same damn breed, to paraphrase Chesty Puller.
 
Undoubtedly. So shush up and keep stirring them beans, cookie!
Hey - no digs against cooks. They worked harder than us and had a mean football team (in my case it was a Hawaiian dude who used to play college ball). But talking with others suggests that combat arms might have been a bit closer knit than other fields (maybe with the exception of tankers, and only because I knew a lot of "tankers" who ended up in a supply role driving HEMTTs...)
 
the above statement is completely naive to the point of foolishness. That is some kind of Hollywood junk straight out of HBO's "Band of brothers" that has somehow made it's way into the popular conciousness.
I think he was saying how it should be, not how it is. And he's right.

And the way it should be is far far closer to reality than is the image you give. I never saw evidence of any gang activity in eight years.
while massive redemption is dubious, it may not be impossible for at least some to straighten their lives a bit when exposed to something other than "the 'hood".
If they're writing gang signs on porta-potty walls, they obviously have not cleaned up much. Those signs are symbols of their loyalty to the gang.
 
Somebody posted "my room" while in the service. What ever happened to barack bays, KP, paint rocks, "the smoking lamp is lit" "field strip'em", Article 15, guard duty, the draft?
 
In the future, they'll menace us with the hobgoblin of "former military members using their training for illegal activity" and claim that the solution is a further erosion of civil liberties.

Or maybe I'm just cynical because it's Saturday and I'm in the office.
Or maybe you're prescient.
 
They're risking their butts over there while I'm sitting here in my jammies on a Sunday morning. I'll worry about their motives when they get back. For now, I'm giving every single person over there the benefit of the doubt.
 
When I was growing up judges would (not infrequently) give a recalcitrant the choice of jail time or the military. Maybe the 'bad' guys then weren't as bad but I wouldn't bet much on it although they weren't as organized, at least in my off the beaten track part of the world.
 
You can trace bady boys in the military back as far as the Roman Army, or farther still. Tribes in Germania were guarded by the toughest guys in the village. In the Civil War of the United States, there was a Northern unit known, if I recall correctly, as the "Bowery Boys" where it was said you had to have done jail time to be in that rough and tumble unit. Over in Western Europe, there's a military group that has been, for years and years, comprised of felons, murderers, theives, and all manner of tough characters that would make an L.A. Gangbanger wet his pampers. In fact, in some exercises, U.S. Marines are warned to not even speak with or have contact with any of them.
Your job in the military is to kill the people that your superior's say to kill. Who better to do that than a guy who lives for that his whole life?
So they tag some stuff. So they have gang tattoos. They understand group loyalty in a way that the squeaky clean ROTC graduates can't. Being in the military isn't about polishing brass and having the most crisp uniform. It's about being a warrior.
Of course, I don't like the idea of these guys using their training to further their private goals, once discharged. But, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
 
Of particular concern are reports that the Folk Nation, consisting of more than a dozen gangs in the Chicago area, is placing young members in the military in an effort to gather information about weapons and tactics,
Chicago gangs have been recruiting youngsters for years, keeping them "clean" and then having them become members of the Chicago Police Department once they're old enough.

If you think about it, it's amazing how much good a gang member can do for the gang if he's a cop, simply by, for example, making sure that he's driving his squad car down 30th street at 7:15 PM rather than 35th street at that time.

It doesn't surprise me that they've decided to infiltrate the military as well. :(
 
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