Gas Prices/Gas Shortages

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Flyboy wrote:

By the way, they'll not be keeping a lot of that money. Turns out that building or rebuilding refineries is expensive. Guess where those "windfall profits" are going to go.

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Flyboy, would you please tell me when the last new refinery project was done in the U.S. I'm retired these days, but I spent a lot of years working in design engineering and construction, mostly in chemical process and petro-chemical plant design and construction, which included OIL REFINERY PROJECTS.

In the early 90's, while on an assignment at Badger in Cambridge, Mass., I worked on a REFINERY REVAMP for Koch Refining. It was a fairly extensive project, but it was an ADD-ON. There was another Koch project in the house, it was located at Corpus Christy. It was also a REVAMP.

In 1998, I was in the New O'leans area, at the Trans American refinery, right across a narrow road from Shell Norco. The project was a fairly extensive one, but it was NOT a new refinery, rather it was repair-revamp work. Over the years, I hit a few refinery projects, almost all of them being revamps of one kind or another. The last GRASS ROOTS refinery project I worked on was in the early 1950's, while employed at Lummus Co., in N.Y.C. The project was located at Mandan, North Dakota. Cannot off-hand recall who the client was, though Standard Oil tends to ring a bell.

Do you want to detail the "new" refineries you mentioned?

As for other aspects, assuming that the daily stock market reports heard diring the course of news broadcasts, oil companies appear to have been booking RECORD PROFITS. As for oil companies combining woith each other, R.H. Lee offered some interesting comment on that score, and re that, when A buys B, it often turns out that B's refinery or refineries get shut down, a situation that could contribute to the shortage of refinery capacity recently mentioned in news stories.
 
I think you misread Flyboy.

Those record profits the oil companies are making now are going to be needed to replace the damaged/destroyed refineries on the Gulf Coast.

Second, because of the scarcity, caused by Katrina and the run on gasoline, they should be raking in the dough.
 
As owen said, I was referring to repair/rebuild of the refineries damaged by the storm. Yes, I know there have been no new refineries built since, what, the seventies? That's part of the reason we're in this mess in the first place, and it's why the price of crude oil is actually not the limiting factor in gasoline prices. I was just pointing out that those "record profits" are not likely to last beyond this quarter, because they're about to start hitting some serious expenses.
 
And on another note, how about ONE formulation for the entire country (with maybe 3 octane levels). I understand each area has to have different blends depending on the whims of the local 'Air Resource Board'. For example in CA we had to have MTBE in the gas, now it's in the groundwater and they can't figure out how to get rid of it.

More refineries making one formulation for the entire country. There's something the Republican majority could do that would actually be useful.
 
How about two octane levels, 87 and 91. Get rid of that 89 stuff and make more of the other two. .
 
And on another note, how about ONE formulation for the entire country (with maybe 3 octane levels). I understand each area has to have different blends depending on the whims of the local 'Air Resource Board'. For example in CA we had to have MTBE in the gas, now it's in the groundwater and they can't figure out how to get rid of it.

Yeah, what was the number I heard? Something like 43 blends for the country? Pick one that is good for the majority of the people, maybe one or two more if there is a sizeable population that needs a different blend for a certain, specific reason and go with that. And yeah, 87 and 91 would probably work for the majority. Maybe 89 could be found in some certain places, kinda like racing fuel is only found at isolated gas stations. But when I drive into a gas station and see 85.8, 87, 89, 91, and 93 or 95, I just gotta shake my head. I'd bet 90% of people just put in what is cheapest.
 
I predict the 'free marketers' will be either strangely silent, or join the chorus of condemnation then.
No, as almost all of us have said, if there is evidence of price fixing, we will be in the condemnation crowd from the instant we see that. Nothing torques a free-marketer like tampering with the free market. However, I'll note that everything you have stated/cited thus far has dealt with oil companies, and we're talking about a price spike instituted by gasoline retailers. I'll repeat for the umpteenth time that they are not the same thing.

Does the price of oil influence the price of gas? Of course. However, when you're talking about a rapid fluctuation in the price of a product following a natural disaster, you're not seeing an effect of changes in raw material price. I suspect you'll continue to ignore that, so this is growing increasingly futile.

Again, if you want to make hay about "price gouging", cite some evidence of price fixing among gasoline retailers. The "free marketers" are waiting.

And Mussi...have you been talking to my wife? ;) Becaue that's what she always says. ;)

Mike
 
Coronach, now you're doing a 180. Earlier you said that price increases at the retail level were simply due to 'free market' forces and the desire to maintain supplies. Now you're acknowledging the possibility of 'gouging' and cya for future condemnation of same after a successful prosecution.

There will be prosecutions for 'gouging' at the retail level, and I think you know it. Do I currently have 'evidence'? No, those in the business of investigating and prosecuting these offenses will unconver that evidence, and it will take months.
 
Hep me understand somethin'. What does windfall profit look like? Is it on the balance sheet, or income statement? Maybe it is something only a politician or tax collector would recognize. What would it look like if I were to see a free range windfall profit? Can you tell if one is lurking nearby based on market prices? I just need some distinguishing characteristics so I'll know one when I see it.

If it is ok to gig a business owner for windfall profits, is it ok to subsidize the owner for . . . <flip, flip, flip; ah, there it is: the antonym for "windfall"> . . .ill-fortune losses?
 
A windfall profit exists, it's real and it's taxed. As we're using it here, it's a colloquialism for an unexpected event that allows the profiteer to exploit the market and raise prices in order to make a higher than usual gain on the same amount of product sold. The profiteer is able to do this because he has a) exclusive control of the supply; and b) a captive group who cannot do without his product and will pay (almost) whatever it costs to obtain it. Windfall profits would appear on the income statement during the current year and close into owner's equity at year end. They would probably appear as a seperate line item in revenue so as not to skew operating cost percentages for that period.

Almost forgot...'ill fortune losses'.... yes, they're deductable as 'casualty and theft losses'. Their deduction may be limited in the current year, but the balances can be carried forward and written off in subsequent years.
 
so then they must be some sort of cartel? :D



Im glad these folks arent in the bottled drinking water biz. :neener:
 
Coronach, now you're doing a 180. Earlier you said that price increases at the retail level were simply due to 'free market' forces and the desire to maintain supplies. Now you're acknowledging the possibility of 'gouging' and cya for future condemnation of same after a successful prosecution.
:scrutiny: How do you get that from what I just wrote?

I mean, ok, yes, I did write that the retail increases are from market forces acting "to protect supply", if by that you mean they are driving the price up as demand increases and supply remains fixed. Beyond that...wha? Are you even reading what I write, or do you just not understand it, period?

Someone else, advise: am I just completely missing a valid point, or is he talking no sense whatsoever now?

As to the rest, I have, from the onset, acknowledged and stated that if there is a valid case for price fixing, I would most sternly condemn the price fixers. Do you even understand the difference in concept between price fixing (a valid economic term) and "price gouging" (which is just a term for someone charging a lot for a product).

There will be prosecutions for 'gouging' at the retail level, and I think you know it.
Uh, ok.
Do I currently have 'evidence'? No, those in the business of investigating and prosecuting these offenses will unconver that evidence, and it will take months.
Get back to me when it happens.

Mike
 
A windfall profit exists
Then you should invest in them.

Coronach has not changed his position or said anything different than before.

I think we should have 86 octane, 91 octane, and something higher like 96 octane. Gas would really get expensive after 96 octane IIRC from an aviation article about unleaded gas.

I think that if we started teaching economics in high school again I think it would be a pretty significant blow to the Democratic party as well as many politicians that play on people's ignorance.
 
I think that if we started teaching economics in high school again I think it would be a pretty significant blow to the Democratic party as well as many politicians that play on people's ignorance.Quote:

Yeah, that would work. :rolleyes:
 
But there hasn't been the first supply problem in central VA. They're just slow - they were at $2.91 last Thursday night and by 6:30 the next morning they were up to $3.31.

John
 
My neighborhood 7-11 is still at last week's price - $3.31. They aren't doing much business.
Yeah, but they're conserving their supply, which is what it's about.

Yeah, and free market is working. They are higher than everyone else, so no one buys from them.

Its back to everyone trying to drop their price a penny lower than everyone else here. Now I am hearing complaining that Wal-Mart is trying to undersell the local owners again :rolleyes:
 
It's been pretty steady at $3.09 here.

I take comfort that it's still a little cheaper than milk. Though not by much.

pax
 
Here near Atlanta, where gas simply ran out when the prices started racing up, gas is back down as low as $2.79/gal.
 
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