Glock 23 kB on film

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Comparing a 9mm, most people shoot the "white box" power level, with a 45 is not valid. Much more "banging" going on to the gun with larger calibers and high power factors.

The following are the SAAMI rated pressures in PSI for 9mm and 45acp in both standard and +P ratings.

9mm Luger 35,000
9mm Luger +P 38,500

45 ACP 21,000
45 ACP +P 23,000

Which cartridge has the higher operating pressures again?:uhoh: The 9's look to be running about 60% more pressure. Surely that should eat a gun much faster than a 45acp would by pressure alone.

I'd say theres much more "banging" going on with my 9mm's than my 45's, but then, I didn't need to look it up to know that either.:D

Which brings me to another thought based on "facts", and not supposition. If the 1911 design were stronger than a glock, it should last 60% longer by pressure curves with the same round count. We know it doesn't, so I've got to wonder why the military found it necessary to rebuild 1911's after 20-30K for 50+ years, and why the Leathams rebuild them after 50K or before through them. The 1911 uses a much lower pressurte cartridge yet doesn't last where the glock runs 100's of K's with a higher pressure cartridge.

Is the 1911 a weak design or what? The evidence clearly does not point to the 1911 being one of the "stronger" designs does it?
 
I thought that the combination of Glock and the Philippines rang a bell.

Scroll down to post #13 on this thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=132652&highlight=philippines+glock

Post #4 in this thread

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=38355&highlight=philippines+glock

I also recall reading that ammo prices in the Philippines are VERY high. Thought someone posted some years ago to the effect that handloading was very common there as a result.

Doesn't really matter to me however it shakes out. I don't own any .40S&W pistols. ;)
 
" Wrong sir, the sear, hammers, trigger shoes wear to the point of unsafe."

brownie0486,

I'll agree to that. But, as you know ;) , the trigger weight and engagement have a lot to do with the durability. Run a 5-6lb trigger pull with quality parts and I doubt you will be redoing the trigger at 50,000 rounds. It might be "creepy", but still better than a Glock trigger.
Run 3lbs and under with lower hammer hooks, less engagement and you will be rebuilding. That's the "price" you pay for a light, "glass rod breaking" trigger pulls.

As you know also, "pressure" doesn't determine "recoil" and the effects on the gun or shooter. Velocity and bullet weight determine recoil. A 22LR has more "pressure" than a 45, but has much less recoil and "banging" on the gun.
Larger caliber pistols have to be built "stronger" to survive the "pounding" of the larger calibers. Why did Glock use a "45" slide on their GAP, and not the 9/40 slide ? ;)
 
Ok Phenom,

Now sit heart and explain to me why they "suck"! I would be willing to bet that my G19 will outlast any pistol other then another glock.

And while I agree with you that your Ak is a damn reliable weapon (even though they are very in-accurate), It will not outlast my GLock! And is not as reliable! You do know that rifles wear there barrels out much faster then a pistol. I actually never heard of anybody shooting out a barrel in a glock.

BTW, you should get rid of your "commie rifle" and get yourself a AR!:D
 
And as for the 1911 vs Glock thing. Its just a neverending feud. You old timers need to realize that times change, and the 1911 is a outdated design. Sorry fellas, but its the truth. And anbody that says a 1911 (out of the box) is more reliable, or even just as reliable as a glock, is just plan in denial. The sooner you guys can realize this, and put away your antique pistol, the sooner you can get on with your lives!:D
 
Over the past twenty years, I have bought four 1911s NIB (two Colts and two Kimbers). They have functioned reliably and totally problem free from the box. The myth of 1911 unreliability is overblown.

Over a slightly shorter time span, I have bought five Glocks NIB (G17, G23, G30, G31, G32). The G17, G30 and G32 functioned as realiably and problem free as the 1911s (but no moreso). The G23 was the most inaccurate handgun I have ever owned--from a rest, its "groups" looked more like patterns from an improved choke shotgun. The G31 could not get through a magazine (and I tried multiple--both standard and ten-round capacities--without jamming.

Overall, both 1911s and Glocks have proved reliable and problem free weapons, but it's entirely possible to get a lemon in either one. Buying a Glock does not guarantee reliability, and buying a 1911 does not guarantee unreliability.
 
Glocks were made for people what don't want to learn anything about guns, it's why they're so simple.
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No they weren't. They were made for the Austrian army. :scrutiny:
 
Did you forget your bet with me Das, well did you? I bet you don't have the cojones:D Yes the 1911 is an outdated design. However the LAPD's Swat Team and the FBI's HRT adopting them says alot;) Why the hell would I want a "pink" rifle like an AR :confused:
 
Nah I didnt forget slick! Why dont you answer my question though? Cajones please buddy, you dont want none!;)

Dont give me this LAPD swat thing! Those Kimbers are POS, and everybody knows it. I can agree that the FBI's Springers are up to par, but damn with that price tag, I would sure hope so.

But with LAPD's swat gun, look it up! You will see all the problems they have with that POS!

Bottom line, your argument has more holes than the bunny ranch! I mean christ if I use your reasoning than the Glock pistol most be the best of all time, since basically every kind of Department uses one. Including the FBI!


Why should you use a AR? Well for one thing, you can hit what your aiming at!:neener:
 
I know Kimbers are garbage. Your the one that made the bet, not me:p The first hangun I bought was a G-17C. I loved the looks, feel, and especially the trigger pull. I like the number of parts the Glock contained. The G-17C also proved to be very accurate. In the end it just didn't work for me:(

So, I hit everything I aimed at with an AK-47 :neener:
 
Yes the 1911 is an outdated design. However the LAPD's Swat Team and the FBI's HRT adopting them says alot

What exactly does it say to you? Inquiring minds want to know:D

What it says to me is that someone in charge who had authority to make the decisions on what would be carried wanted 1911's, no more or less.

In Iraq for instance, the 1911's are coveted over the issued Beretta's, but not over the glocks when they are found or confiscated. How do I know? Well, it's like this----I've trained a 5th group SF soldier before he left for Iraq with that group. They were issued Berreta's, and wanted 1911's but were not lucky enough to get the ones available for every man.

Having stayed in touch with this ssgt in the 5th group, he related how EVERY ONE OF THEM would fight over who got a confiscated glock when one was "recovered" from a terr. He was lucky enough to get a G19 off a terr he took down in a house at 4 in the morning on a raid.

So, for those using guns everyday in battles with real terrs, the order went like this----1911 over Berretta, any glock over 1911's.

That says a whole lot more to me than what someone in charge of purchasing a weapon platform chose for everyone in that unit.

So-I'll reiterate the question to you-
Yes the 1911 is an outdated design. However the LAPD's Swat Team and the FBI's HRT adopting them says alot

What exactly does it say to you? Inquiring minds want to know:D

Brownie
 
I don't buy the .40 "only" argument. Some of these pics are of .45's and 9mm's. http://www.jrguns.com/kaboom/

I have trouble with any design that has the sole intent of being the lowest bidder.
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What examples can you cite of GLOCK being the lowest bidder? They certainly aren't the lowest bidder from the standpoint of consumer retail - many a Smith, CZ, Springfield, or Ruger (all excellent firearms, by the way, to the best of my knowledge) can easily beat the Austrian pistols on price. And I find it somewhat hard to believe, at least in the absence of any direct evidence, that GLOCK, unless they were really trying to be a "loss leader", by deliberately losing money in order to achieve "mindshare" with LEOs and the departments and agencies who issue their weapons, with an aim to jack up prices later, significantly underbid any of the above-mentioned firearms manufacturers.
 
Browning Hi-Powers in 9mm will often crack the frame around 35,000 rounds down the pipe. 9mm is not any easier on guns than .45, no matter how you try to contort the numbers. In Glocks, especially .40 caliber Glocks, the first major part to wear out in normal use is the slide, not the frame. 9mm Glocks can usually go for 100,000 rounds+ before the slide wears out, which is better than 1911s usually manage. .40 cal Glocks usually go 20,000 to 50,000 before needing slide replacement, probably about on par with many 1911s. And Glocks don't require small parts replacements every 5,000 rounds like 1911s do.

1911s are fine guns, but they're high maintenance by today's standards, especially when brand new in the box. Glocks are fine guns too, but you have to keep a firm wrist. I'd bet that those two problems with the respective guns is the cause for 99% of reliability complaints.
 
RyanM;

Good post,

I had forgotten that many problems people experience with G's is the "limp wristing" issue.

I wonder is Phenom's problem with his G is a prime example of this?:D Could be he's a limp wrister extraordinaire;)

Reminds me of the police officer who had the same problem with his G until it was pointed out to him that the gun was wrenching and twisting under recoil and he didn't have a firm "grasp" of the causal affects and situation. He sure was cursing that G until he found out he should have been cursing himself instead:rolleyes:

.40 cal Glocks usually go 20,000 to 50,000 before needing slide replacement, probably about on par with many 1911s

My 1911's never get shot without buffs in them at all times. One of the first things I do is throw one on. My SA slide and frame with 60K+ is about NIB, the rest of the parts lasted 32-35K on one and almost 50K on the other one.

Brownie
 
Glocks are priced aggressively to LEO's because it only costs them $75 to build the gun. They aren't losing money when they contract w/a big agency for $350 per pistol. This is why Glock is so successful with agencies - they can nearly always be the low-bid gun.

Source: Forbes
http://www.forbes.com/global/2003/0331/020_print.html

"These days Glock GmbH has an estimated $100 million in sales, two-thirds of it from the trigger-happy United States. A gun that retails for $500 can be manufactured for $75"

Design features that compromise safety and accuracy, along with the use of cheap materials is why there are more examples of blown up Glocks than of any other pistol. If Glocks were infallible, the G21 wouldn't have gotten kicked out of the Boise, Portland, and LA police departments for kB!'s, light strikes, and firing out of battery. If they were more durable than other pistols, you would see most competition shooters using them and they aren't. Many special forces outfits are going back to custom built 1911's - many of which are built in house. Very few manufacturers are building them "right" these days because it costs too much. It's survival of the fittest and the Glock seems to only be winning in the cheap gun category. Other than that, they really only excel at being mediocre. There's no denying it - if you need a refresher go back and watch the video that launched this thread! :neener:
 
Then in 1985 along came Glock with a gun made from a nylon resin that was tough enough to be made into most parts of a pistol (except the carbon steel barrel). The Glock was also revolutionary for its simple design--34 parts, compared with 60 or so for the Smith & Wesson .45 caliber semiautomatic

Design features that compromise safety and accuracy, along with the use of cheap materials is why there are more examples of blown up Glocks than of any other pistol

The above in direct contradiction to your own link.

The firearm surpassed all competition, and he received the army's order for 25,000 guns in 1983.

Again, more contradiction from your own link and your stating that "Very few manufacturers are building them "right" these days because it costs too much." Seems the G's have it all over other makers products from your own link again.

Many special forces outfits are going back to custom built 1911's - many of which are built in house.

Which would suggest that if the 1911 is not built in house one at a time for special purposes and people, the 1911 just does not hold a candle to the G's,,,,,,, again:D

It's survival of the fittest and the Glock seems to only be winning in the cheap gun category

Price point for price point, those who buy and use the G's could spend the same amount on other brands, but get less bang for the buck, so they don't.

A gun that retails for $500 can be manufactured for $75, and the company has a pretax margin nearing 60%, estimates John Farnam of Defense Training International, a LaPorte, Colorado, small arms instructor.

How would John Farnum know anything about Glocks business margins? He's a firearms instructor and his statements are strictly taken with a grain of :barf: where making financial statements of facts where Glocks margins and manufacturing costs are concerned. Since when is Farnum an expert on G's business model?:uhoh:

Other than that, they really only excel at being mediocre

Yup, with this statement from your link "A Glock shooter experiences a softer recoil because the gun's polymer frame flexes slightly when it's fired. Glock fans include the New York City police, U.S. Special Forces, the FBI and many international antiterrorist units. "

It would appear a lot of "mediocre" agencies listed above that trust and rely on the G:eek:

You really do make a great case FOR THE GLOCK, not against it

Thanks for sharing the information

Brownie
 
Wow already four pages in, and no one has linked up the pic of the SRH with a blown topstrap? That pretty much ends this thread. If THAT tank can kB!, then nothing is safe given enough powder and/or stupidity. Wish I would've saved a copy.

I really figured this would just contribute to the glock/.40sw = kB! mentality.
Seems to be just glock in general = kB! though. Hmm... with enough people seeing a live video of it happening, maybe GLOCK sales will take enough of a hit to drive down prices down! Nah. Probably too many informed consumers, LE, gamers, chl'ers etc who just shrug at that video for that to happen.
 
If the almighty Glock cost only $75.00 to make then why does the company charge outrageous prices for them?
Springfield GI: $475.00
Glock-21: $575.00

So much for the super duper Glock costing less than others. Just because other pistols have more parts doesn't mean they're less durable :neener:
You stay with what works for you and I'll stay with what works for me;)
 
" In Glocks, especially .40 caliber Glocks, the first major part to wear out in normal use is the slide, not the frame. "

That's because... Glock used 9mm slides which cannot handle the larger calibers over many rounds. We are going in circles here.

If you are replacing 1911 slides between 20-50,000 rounds, then the "loads" exceed their design standard, which is hardball. You are talking about modern, 45 ACP slides...I assume?
 
If the almighty Glock cost only $75.00 to make then why does the company charge outrageous prices for them?
Springfield GI: $475.00
Glock-21: $575.00

So much for the super duper Glock costing less than others. Just because other pistols have more parts doesn't mean they're less durable
You stay with what works for you and I'll stay with what works for me
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Dude your getting fuct, hard, on glock prices. Shouldn't pay more than $485 on large frame glocks.

Regardless, your point is still a solid one:
Glock 21 consumer price:........$485
Glock 21 manufacturing cost:...$75
At a total azraping of $410!!

Whereas a Springfield GI's consumer price is similar at $475,
It's manufacturing cost is much closer to that, at...........$473!!!

That's right, because springfield's profit margin is only $2/pistol, you are buying MUCH, MUCH more pistol for your money.

Absolutely NO hole to poke in that logic. You found two prices, and what someone said glocks cost to make. Can't deny it. Although I still like GLOCKS, it looks like the fuctor has become the fuctee!
 
The discussion of torture tests and rounds between rebuilds are interesting, but so what? If gun designers were building pistols to survive torture tests, I think we would have very different pistols.

I don't know that it matters that a pistol needs to be cleaned after 500 rounds or 5,000 rounds. Just clean if before it stops running. Rebuild as needed. Don't get hung up on things that aren't terribly important. The question should be, "How well can you shoot the gun?" Not, "How long can I go without cleaning?" Seems like a no brainer to me.

Your pistol needs to be capable of placing multiple rounds on multiple targets, quickly and accurately, from a variety of positions, and using a sufficiently powerful round.

If the Glock is the gun platform that allows you to do that, fine. If it is the 1911, also fine.

If you are unsure, and are trying to decide, the results form competitive shooting are pretty clear. Pick a 1911. And before you try to run down competition, the requirements for "combat" competition and self defense are pretty similar. See two paragraphs above. Could be written about an IPSC/IDPA gun or a self defense gun.




Scott
 
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