good cops
- Thread starter rhartwell
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I think its great that the police came when you called them. The police where I live here in Ohio don't do crap. They say "We will send someone out." Then nothing ever happens, unless its real serious. I think they get bored around here because of what little goes on.
TT
member
No problem with reading comprehension- a poster made a valid observation, albeit with a touch of hyperbole, about the extreme anti-gun attitude that permeates California, then you and some other apologists jumped up with the usual ‘California is peaches and cream for gunnies’ BS. The California populace is overwhelmingly anti-gun-owner, and the state’s LEOs, prosecutors, and media members are all drawn from that well of gun-haters. Anyone in possession of a firearm in public in California should be very aware of the possibility of running into a LEO who will treat them like a criminal even if they are in compliance with the law. And should that LEO rob, injure, or kill them, it is quite likely that no action will be taken by the local prosecutor, no interest in the matter will be shown by the local media, and there will be no concern for the matter on the part of the local populace because, after all, in their minds you are a gun-owner and therefore deserve whatever happened to you.
I’m sure you think that is being unfair though- after all, you got your permit, so California obviously has things arranged correctly.
Sunray
Member
"...fascination with cops..." Perceptions. One being that cops are out to get you just like bears are waiting behind trees to attack. Cops are good people for the most part. Mind you, most of 'em had never seen a real firearm before they got hired.
Roccobro
Member
Blakenzy you make an EXCELLENT point. I wish traditions and societal norms didn't change so drastically in less than one generations time.... ever.
Justin
TT said
I am going to have to question your first statement regarding your having "no problem with reading comprehension." I have never said, implied, nor believed that "California is peaches and cream for gunnies." I simply pointed out that NOBODY, to my knowledge, who holds a valid CCWL in California has ever been proned out by California Law Enforcement. If you can post a credible source stating that such has, indeed, happened, I am more than willing to concede the point.
I disagree. The general population probably tends more toward being pro 2nd amendment. It is the elected leadership that tends to be anti 2nd amendment. But most voters are not activist enough to care as long as their primary issue is supported by their candidate (just like us).
Again, I disagree. Most of the LEOs I know tend toward pro 2nd amendments positions. It is the CLEOs and upper echelon LEOs and DAs who tend to be antis.
Anyone, anywhere, may run into such a LEO, but that does not support the assertion that it is probable such a thing will happen.
More hyperbole. Can you post instances where such has happened to a law abiding CCWL holder in California?
No, California has things arranged improperly. 12031 is, in my opinion, unconstitutional under the 1st, 2nd, and 4th amendments. 12050 is equally, in my opinion, unconstitutional giving too much discretion to local CLEOs inviting favoritism and thus violating the 14th amendment. I won't even address the idiocy of the roster, 10 round limit, etc. However, if you are willing to jump through all the bureaucratic hoops, a CCWL can be had in California, even in the less CCW friendly counties.
Roccobro
Member
WOW! Besides it being one HUGE run-on, this post is something that only a work of fiction could imagine being real. I see cops arrested for bringing their service weapons into court appearances, and others terminated for allegations of minor infraction violations that were unreported (because they never happened).
Or is it really that great for cops in Sunnyvale, TT?
Justin
TT
member
So you admit California violates its citizens’ 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 14th amendment rights, yet you eagerly defend it and run down those who disparage it.
California’s elected officials have enacted:
.50 cal ban
Arbitrary waiting period for handguns and long guns
Ban on manufacture/import/transfer of standard cap mags
Arbitrary bans on a huge swath of handguns and long guns
Shall issue CCW permitting (with the usual corruption and denial of permits to average citizens)
Ban on loaded open carry
Ban on private sales of firearms
Ban on new handguns without mag disconnects
Ban on new handguns without a ‘loaded camber’ indicator
Ban on new handguns that don’t microstamp (not implemented, but shows intent)
Registration of handguns at transfer or importation into state
Anti-gun propaganda indoctrination prior to handgun purchase
That’s quite a disconnect between elected officials and their constituents…
It’s also telling that California has repeatedly elected the only Democratic Senator with the honesty to admit she would like to send government agents to confiscate firearms from citizens. How desperate do you have to be to deny California is anti-gun? :banghead:Of course, the more anti-gun LEOs you have, the more likely you are to run into one. Duh.
This is entirely inaccurate (although entirely in keeping with the rest of your posts). Anyone who actually follows RKBA in California knows how absurd your assertion is, but for those who don’t, I submit the following link:
http://www.calccw.com/Forums/county-faq/7158-county-map-california-ccw-issuance.html
As the map shows, in the most populous areas of California authorities do not issue permits to people who are not politically connected, thus denying tens or even hundreds of thousands of citizens their natural right to self-defense. These wronged citizens you blithely dismiss as ‘ not willing to jump through hoops’…color me unsurprised.
TT
member
Who cares? I was talking about anti-gun LEOs, prosecutors, and local media looking the other way when gun-owners’ rights are violated…which has nothing to do with what you mentioned.
Buck Snort
Member
DocCas wrote: "However, if you are willing to jump through all the bureaucratic hoops, a CCWL can be had in California, even in the less CCW friendly counties."
There are 26 counties in CA that are, for all practical purposes, shall issue. But don't even THINK of trying to get one in San Francisco or Los Angeles counties. There are no hoops to jump through. Let me refer you to www.calccw.com/Forums/county-faq/6054-ccw-issuance-map-california.html.
Let's try again www.calccw.com/Forums/county-faq/6054-ccw-issuance-map-california.html
OK! after the .com we have /Forums/county-faq/60544-ccw-issuance-map-california.html
I see by reading over some of the earlier posts that you have SOME kind of connection to the DOJ? If that's the case I'm guess'n that's your ticket to a CCW. Yes? No?
There are 26 counties in CA that are, for all practical purposes, shall issue. But don't even THINK of trying to get one in San Francisco or Los Angeles counties. There are no hoops to jump through. Let me refer you to www.calccw.com/Forums/county-faq/6054-ccw-issuance-map-california.html.
Let's try again www.calccw.com/Forums/county-faq/6054-ccw-issuance-map-california.html
OK! after the .com we have /Forums/county-faq/60544-ccw-issuance-map-california.html
I see by reading over some of the earlier posts that you have SOME kind of connection to the DOJ? If that's the case I'm guess'n that's your ticket to a CCW. Yes? No?
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Buck Snort
Member
DocCas wrote: "I am calling FUD on the assertion that I, as a California CCW holder should expect to be proned out in the event of LE contact."
Let us know how it works out when you go to San Franciso and let an LEO know you're pack'n with a CCW.
Let us know how it works out when you go to San Franciso and let an LEO know you're pack'n with a CCW.
TT said
Yes, that is what I said. Quite clearly. That is not an "admission" as if I were confessing to a crime, that is a fact I stated quite clearly.
Again, I call your reading comprehension abilities into question. I have never defended the violation of any citizen's rights. I called FUD on the assertion that a California CCWL holder could expect to be proned out by Law Enforcement for legally carrying a concealed weapon.
What part of "general population" did you confuse with "elected officials?"
Yes, it is, as I clearly stated most voters are single issue voters who vote for the candidate who supports their single issue. The RKBA single issue voters are in the vast minority in California so RKBA is not even on the radar of most California voters in the voting booth. But that is not an indication they are antis, it is only that their single issue is different than ours.
Yes, I know. But again, carefully read the statement concerning the single issue voter.
I am sorry but you seem to be having great difficulty understanding the difference between the State of California (as a Political Bureaucracy) and the people of California (as individuals and collectively). Until you come to grasp that very significant difference any further discussion on the matter will be a waste of time.
Again, you seem to have failed to discern between LEOs and CLEOs, DAs, Politicians, etc.
Cute map, but remember, "the map is not the territory" (the map is merely an abstraction) (Alfred Korzybski). If you count the number of CCWLs issued in the counties that are posted as antis you will find that, even in the worst counties, some few CCWLs are still issued. It is NOT impossible, as you assert, merely difficult, but it can be done as has been proven over and over again by the fact that some number, albeit low, have been issued.
Once again you have failed to grasp what I thought was fairly simple grammar and syntax. I have not "blithely dismiss(ed)" anyone. Shame on you for such a dishonest distortion of my statement. What I said was that if you are willing to jump through all the hoops you can get a CCW in most, if not all, California counties. I stand by that statement on the basis of the fact that every California county lists some CCWLs issued. Difficult, yes. Impossible, no.
Buck Snort
But even those counties have a few CCWLs issued. Not nearly enough, in my opinion, but they still issue.
No. My CCW is issued due to my "connection" to another Federal department/agency. My DOJ "connection" is Cal DOJ, and that is tenuous, at best, and would not qualify as "good cause" in any county in California, even the "shall issue" counties.
Buck Snort said
But I am usually on the job when I am there, and I avoid places like the commercial sections of the airport. To be forwarned is to be forearmed.
__________________
Been there several times. Have had many LEO contacts. Never had a problem. Mostly they just shrug their shoulders and say "no problem." Once I was told "keep it holstered." That was the the most negative thing that ever happened to me in Sodom By The Bay.
But I am usually on the job when I am there, and I avoid places like the commercial sections of the airport. To be forwarned is to be forearmed.
__________________
TT
member
Agreed. I’ve made my case against your defense of California, I’ll let it stand as is.
TT said
And, once again, you have failed to understand the difference between California as a political entity and California as a community of individuals.
As an aside, I really don't understand why supposedly RKBA people adopt all of the most dishonest aspects of the Brady Campaign's propaganda. The exaggeration of events, making overly broad and (deliberately?) deceptive statements, and making silly claims without any justification.
There is already enough wrong with the RKBA in California, why make up falsehoods about it?
I am still waiting for the name of one person who has been proned out by California Law Enforcement for legally carrying a concealed weapon.
And, once again, you have failed to understand the difference between California as a political entity and California as a community of individuals.
As an aside, I really don't understand why supposedly RKBA people adopt all of the most dishonest aspects of the Brady Campaign's propaganda. The exaggeration of events, making overly broad and (deliberately?) deceptive statements, and making silly claims without any justification.
There is already enough wrong with the RKBA in California, why make up falsehoods about it?
Roccobro
Member
I'm still calling BS. My examples show that ANY abuse of the public trust in NOT tolerated. A cop robbing, maiming or killing and not being charged??? Good grief! Your original run on diatribe of the fantasy world you portrayed of "LEO's and all who hold political power in CA" being passed off as reality is sickening to a normal person.
I think your just out of touch with reality TT. No offense. But your already offended judging by your blatant ignorant statements to further your argument. No syntax or reading comprehension problem... Your just plain out f touch with reality. And without any FACTS to support your fantasies I have quoted from you (twice).
"IBTL"
Justin
TT
member
Well, like doc’s last post, there’s nothing new here, so no counterpoint is necessary. I’ll just restate my position, so there can be no charge of ambiguity:
I would be completely unsurprised to hear a CCW holder/other person lawfully in possession of a firearm in public was proned out by a Cali LEO.
I would be completely unsurprised to hear a Cali LEO confiscated a legally possessed firearm via a trumped up charge and that his department then refused to return the firearm after the trump charges were dismissed.
I would be completely unsurprised to hear a Cali LEO shot a California CCW/or person legally in possession of a firearm in public and that his department then covered it up by recasting it as a good shoot.
In all these cases I would expect California media outlets to ignore the incident, or to aid and abet state/county/local agencies against the gun owner. I would expect no action on the part of any portion of the California judicial system to deliver justice to the wronged gun owner.
I base these positions on 20+ years of close observation of the California RKBA effort, and countless interactions with Cali LEOs and citizens who were not aware of my position on the issue. But I don’t ask any reader to simply accept my statements; instead, I ask that he review the litany of violations of the 2nd amendment I listed in my previous post, and note that the California electorate has repeatedly elected and reelected the most virulent gun-haters to all levels of government. All of this can be easily researched and confirmed, and once it has been confirmed, the natural question to ask is why a gun owner should expect to treated fairly in California.
Or alternatively, you can accept the apologist argument that California is a pro-gun state and all its anti-gun laws and politicians are just some easily explainable quirk.
Please, speak freely! The opinions of the kind of person who would defend a state like California carry no weight with me.
Let's see what my choices are:
I can either accept as gospel TTs imaginary, trumped up, silly speculation or I have to accept his lie about anybody on this forum saying California is a pro-gun state?
Decisions, decisions.
Wait! I've got it! NONE OF THE ABOVE! BOTH ARE UNTRUE!
I can either accept as gospel TTs imaginary, trumped up, silly speculation or I have to accept his lie about anybody on this forum saying California is a pro-gun state?
Decisions, decisions.
Wait! I've got it! NONE OF THE ABOVE! BOTH ARE UNTRUE!
TT
member
Uh oh, all caps…now it’s getting serious!
I may be devoid of intellectual honesty, but at least I wouldn’t make statements like these:
And then try to claim I’m not some sort of pro-California sycophant.
pioneer461
Member
"It also depends on the state you live in. Had that been California, permit holder or not, you would have been proned out on the ground and most likely cuffed until they could verify what you said."
Not necessarily. Depends on the department, and more importantly on the officer. Many officers are ignorant of their state's concealed carry laws, and some, usually younger officers, have a "only cops should have guns" mentality, but you will find those in every state.
It also depends on who called the police about the gun in the first place. If the caller was an ignorant "all guns are evil" soccer mom in panic mode, the call will be broadcast as more urgent. It also depends on the dispatcher who takes the call. They are not, in most cases, officers and have only a rudimentary knowledge of law.
When I was a patrol officer and got a "man with gun" call, I would ask dispatch; "What's he doing with the gun?" If they did not know, I would have dispatch call back the caller to find out so I could make the appropriate response. More often-than-not, it was just some guy walking down the street minding his own bizzness. When I encountered someone who told me they had a carry permit, the conversation usually ended up about what kind of gun, carry loads, etc. If it was a traffic stop, it usually wound up in a verbal warning and "have a nice day."
And yes, the early part of my career was in S. California.
Not necessarily. Depends on the department, and more importantly on the officer. Many officers are ignorant of their state's concealed carry laws, and some, usually younger officers, have a "only cops should have guns" mentality, but you will find those in every state.
It also depends on who called the police about the gun in the first place. If the caller was an ignorant "all guns are evil" soccer mom in panic mode, the call will be broadcast as more urgent. It also depends on the dispatcher who takes the call. They are not, in most cases, officers and have only a rudimentary knowledge of law.
When I was a patrol officer and got a "man with gun" call, I would ask dispatch; "What's he doing with the gun?" If they did not know, I would have dispatch call back the caller to find out so I could make the appropriate response. More often-than-not, it was just some guy walking down the street minding his own bizzness. When I encountered someone who told me they had a carry permit, the conversation usually ended up about what kind of gun, carry loads, etc. If it was a traffic stop, it usually wound up in a verbal warning and "have a nice day."
And yes, the early part of my career was in S. California.
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Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Renegade1alpha,
Highly unlikely, since Cali is basically a 'may issue' state the premise would be if the person even had a CCW s/he is well known enough to be immune from such atrocities.
Highly unlikely, since Cali is basically a 'may issue' state the premise would be if the person even had a CCW s/he is well known enough to be immune from such atrocities.
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