Are conceal carry permit holders as well trained with their sidearm as the cops?

[eflatminor]

I called into a radio station today (KPCC) that had LA chief of police Bratton as a guest. He's a notorious anti but I nevertheless posed this question: "There is a tremendous increase in the number of CC permits around the country and evidence to suggest crimes has increased in those areas. The LA sheriff won't issue permits, what do you think?"

The chief basically stated that he's an anti. I've got to give him credit for at least stating that clearly. He went on to spout the typically bull about still protecting 2nd Amendment rights but then went on to use the Illinois shootings as an example. He suggested that if a permit holder were in that room that he might not be properly trained and could end up accidentally shooting an innocent bystander. I was not given a chance to counter, as is typical of call in radio shows and why I made my point in my question.

The sheriff returns to this radio station every month or so. I'd love to call back, remind him of his comment and, if available, refer him to a study that suggests that the typical CC permit holder gets more range time, more practice and is a better shot than the typical cop. Anybody know of such a study or have a link to support this idea?

All I can offer at this point is anecdotal evidence. I shoot A LOT of IPSC, IDPA and Bullseye. We often have groups of cops that join in from time to time. They're great to shoot with in my experience - good guys. But not once have I ever seen a cop able to shoot a pistol as well as the regulars, myself included. They typically finish in the lower quarter among the group, better than the newbies but far worse than the regular competitive shooters. This is just my experience - I'm sure there are cops out there that can out shoot me.

 

[jlbraun]

"There is a tremendous increase in the number of CC permits around the country and evidence to suggest crimes has increased in those areas. The LA sheriff won't issue permits, what do you think?"

You meant "decreased", right?

 

[Black Knight]

Years ago when I was in private security, I would shoot perfect or near perfect scores when qualifying. Well I thought I could hold my own in competition. Boy did I get handed a body part. I found that most of the non-law enforcement folks there shot rings around the LEO community. I would say that this trend is normal for most areas.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

LEOs are like people -- some like guns, some don't. Some bus and truck drivers like driving, others do it for the paycheck. Same is true of police officers.

The local gun shop is owned by two former LEOs. One is retired, one simply went into another line of work after ten years on the force. Neither of them carries. I once asked the retired partner how often he shot with handguns. He said he only shot at annual requalification. Never needed to use his duty weapon, so he never practiced with it. Doesn't mind people owning handguns, but his thing is old shotguns. Hasn't fired a handgun since he retired.

I don't shoot IDPA or IPSC but I'm pretty certain I shoot better than this particular officer ever did on a good day. OTOH there are a few LEOs who shoot regularly at the range where I hang out, and a couple of them aren't too bad.

 

[Soybomb]

I would put the burden of proof on him. With so many states allowing carry, make him provide some examples of his fears coming true. There is no reason to play make believe with all the real world data we actually have available. In Florida alone there have been over 1.1 million concealed carry licenses issued since 1987. If what he proposes is a real problem, he should be able to cite examples of it.

I don't know of any studies that cover what you're wanting. It really isn't that relevant anyway, the training needs of a cop and a gun are fairly different than what someone carrying concealed needs to be safe. Obviously the guys at the range are enthusiasts and are likely to be good shots, but that doesn't mean that all people with permits are at the range that much.

 

[1 old 0311]

I have two family members who are LEO's. They both ONLY shoot to gualify.

 

[HammerBite]

He suggested that if a permit holder were in that room that he might not be properly trained and could end up accidentally shooting an innocent bystander.

I suppose he thinks it makes more sense to eliminate that possibility, and at the same time eliminate the possibiliy that someone might stop the gunman's deliberate shooting of innocent bystanders. :banghead:

 

[Gun Geek]

Well you have to consider this, LEO usually only have an annual or semi annual qualification, in very few areas they do quarterly. The local gov's dont have the time, man power or budget to send all their LEOs the range often. As we all know ammunition can get expensive. And most (not all) LEOs dont want to spend their off time at the range.

Whereas the gun enthusiasts, gun geeks , gun nuts, competition shooters are at the range constantly. Most of us on a weekly basis or every two weeks. Me personally I shoot almost every day. (But I can shoot in my back yard). I say at the very minimum the CCW holder gets at the very least 4 times the range time as an average LEO.

 

[ACE21]

I too have 3 relatives that are cops that only shoot to qualify. Me on the other hand shoot every Saturday for IPSC and Every Odd Number Sundays I shoot Steel. the even Sundays I shoot IDPA......... I do shoot alot better than the 3 of my 3 cop relatives. both rifles and handguns.

 

[tblt]

No not at all but should get more training if they are going to carry I.M.O.

 

[Matthaios]

from gunfacts.info on page 49...

"Fact: 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person."

 

[CountGlockula]

If you have time to hone in on your shooting skills and moral skills, then yes.

Ideally, every firearm own must be in an advanced level of their training. This would be the ideal firearm owner.

 

[Robert Hairless]

He suggested that if a permit holder were in that room that he might not be properly trained and could end up accidentally shooting an innocent bystander.

Given that possibility, why is it worse for one potential victim to risk hitting another than it is to create the circumstances that enable a murderer to kill as many victims as possible?

Is there more virtue in being murdered than in being wounded by a stray shot from someone who prevents you from being murdered?

 

[RNB65]

1. No, not even close. But most fully understand the basics of gun safety. It's the fools without CC permits that I worry about.

2. Where in the 2nd Amendment does it mention a training requirement to bear arms?
-

 

[MiddleAgedKen]

Remember, firearms handling is only one part of a LEO's job, and I would hazard that it's fairly down the priority list. Consider a typical LEO's 40-hour week (let's say it's 40 for the sake of argument)--how much of a typical week involves firearms, and how much involves the zillion-and-one other things a LEO does?

Edit to add: RNB65 raises an interesting point. According to contemporary usage the term "regulated," as in "well-regulated militia," meant "made regular." In other words, well trained. However, the wording of the Amendment (and IANAL, I hasten to point out) suggests to me that the training is not the requirement, but the objective that the right of the people to keep and bear arms is meant to secure.

In other words, it isn't that we get to keep and bear arms so long as we are a well-regulated militia, but rather that it is our right to keep and bear arms that ensures we have the opportunity to be a well-regulated militia.

 

[Robert Hairless]

[Duplicate]

 

[Robert Hairless]

One other thing I wish you'd ask ....

Since the focus is college shootings and specifically on the recent horror at an Illinois college, perhaps you could ask everyone near the University of Illinois to help find the handgun lost by a police officer there a few weeks ago. That well trained cop seems to have put his handgun on the top of his car and drove off: http://www.news-gazette.com/news/courts_crime_fire/2008/02/03/officers_issue_warning__about_lost

He might need it if there is an active shooter incident in any of the schools there so he can protect the helpless. Or maybe he could ask to borrow one of the shooter's guns.

The cop thinks he lost his gun somewhere near Champaign's Barkstall Elementary School. Maybe one of the kids can help him find it.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Its my observation when I go to shoot the LEOs I see "usually" aren't great. That isn't saying all by no means. Just the ones I see. I typically see the young ones coming in who can't shoot tight targets. I am not there to instruct them. After all why would they even listen to a guy who shot pistols all of his life and qualified expert with everything he ever put his hands on in the military to include pistols. I pride myself in the teaching arts just as much as the shooting arts, trust me. the egos some of them have get in their way.
Let their older fellers teach them.

 

[SoCalShooter]

Well personally I know I can out shoot my cop friend he told me they only get like 200 rounds per month to practice with. But then again I expend about 1000 rounds of ammo per month. Personally I think this sheriff is a loony same with the sheriffs here in san diego.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Hey SoCalShooter, you just breached OpSec on your smarty pants profile location...

I think that maybe the difference is in how Police are trained with regard to mindset. How many CCW Joe Sixpacks go through the training to handle the stressful situation of a shooting. Even if the coppers only get 1 hour in academy or BLET, that's an hour more than the average dood.

So, paper isn't exactly the end all measure of shooting ability.

 

[NGIB]

The range I frequent is very near the local sheriff's department and I shoot with these folks all the time. While I'm not the best pistol shot in the world, I can outshoot most of them. I suspect the reason is I WANT to be there, and they HAVE to be there. While I did not have to attend a class or qualify to get my CCW, as a twenty year military veteran and a 35 year shooter - I think I make the grade...

 

[Zundfolge]

At the end of the class I had to take to get my CCW, I had to shoot and pass the same qualification that is required of police officers in Colorado.

Based on what the instructor of our class told us after shooting, we did better than most police recruits (keep in mind the guy that ran the class is a cop).

 

[Superlite27]

The entire argument that an untrained CCW holder might accidentally hit an innocent bystander is entirely moot due to the fact that if the CCW holder does nothing, the mass murderer WILL continue to INTENTIONALLY aim, and PURPOSELY KILL more people.

The arguement is senseless in, and of, itself.

 

[DougW]

After having shot in 3 gun matches with/against LEO, I generally outshoot 2/3 of them (I have also taken it upon myself to get training from professionals). The ones I do not out shoot are FBI, DEA, US Military, Training Instructors, etc. The reason is that I enjoy shooting more than those I out shoot. I strive to compete with myself, and attempt to better my overall scores. Getting tougher with these bad knees, eyes, and just about everything else (that has quit working after 50 years!). The matches I shoot are built around learning instead of game'ing, where you are required to solve an issue during the stage (in one case, the correct move was to retreat and not shoot). There are a lot of young new officers that shoot these matches as learning/training exercises.

 

[treeman800]

I love this place.