Got made, today.

[raskolnikov_22]

Contrary to some other peoples' outrage, I'm ok with everything that the cops actually did.

I don't think so, else why the thread?

Never forget that police are a necessary evil. Even if they do everything by the book, never cease to feel indignant that someone, anyone has authority over you, to stand in your way and question what you're about. Never cease to look at them askance. How could an innocent man help but be insulted when he is made a spectacle by others who are no better than he?

And don't forget that the very notion of having to be licensed to "bear arms" is unconstitutional.

 

[AKElroy]

Cops, bouncers, security guards, fellow CCH's, they all watch hands and pockets. No one has made me with my NAA, not that this gives me much comfort.

That's funny right there--I don't care who you are. I haven't been made with my swiss army knife either

For the original post, I do think your conversation with them initiated the additional attention. Volunteering that you may have "flashed" without being asked could have provided some prosecution descretion as an admission of failure to conceal. In addition, volunteering that you were heading to the post office gave even more ammo to aggressive LEO's looking for a way to pass the time remaining on their shift. I suggest staying polite, but SILENT in the future, responding with single word answers to direct questions such as: Are you carrying? Yes. Are you licensed? Yes. Where are you going? I am working & have errands. My CCW is on my belt, what would you like for me to do? I prefer to not answer any other questions. They will quickly determine you are not breaking the law & let you go, assuming you have not said something allowing them to become more involved. In Texas, failure to conceal can cause a revocation of your CHL, but the test for failure is that the weapon cannot be detected by CASUAL observation. Professional observation of your CCW by LEO's does not indicate a faiure to conceal, but your initial statement that you were aware of "flashing" could have trumped this "casual observation" standard & led to a brandishing or FTC charge. Less talking in the future will serve you well--

 

[AKElroy]

Contrary to some other peoples' outrage, I'm ok with everything that the cops actually did.

Me too. Rules are rules, and the application of the law is the job of our LEO's. I do not fault them in this scenario; they acted under the law based on what the original post did and the statements he volunteered. In fact, this situation could have easily been handled as a felony stop, weapons drawn, face down on the tarmac had they "gone by the book". They clearly did not see him as a threat, and questioned him with restraint. The additional attention of following him was caused by his statements as to where he was heading next. They were simply acting on his stated intent under the law. Any posters suggesting that an LEO is violating 2A by enforcing the law as written missunderstands our system of justice. LEO's are charged with enforcing the law, JUDGES are charged with the application of rights, Legislators are charged with not writing unconstitutional tripe.

 

[raskolnikov_22]

IMHO unless you have been a police officer and walked the walk, your complaining is without as much merit as if you had.

You're suggesting that tax-paying, law-abiding citizens have no right to evaluate police actions. Then quis custodiet...

Any posters suggesting that an LEO is violating 2A by enforcing the law as written missunderstands our system of justice.

"Just following orders" didn't work at Nuremburg, it shouldn't work here.

I am actually discouraged to the point I will rethink carrying until I do some more homework. Now that you mention it, I do recall this rule.

And what good is a license with so many questions of etiquette and microscopic hoops that they can fault you on?

Gloob, I'm not recommending you break the law, just don't become docile ("rules are rules"), and don't be cowed into relinquishing your rights and self-respect. Next time, just keep quiet and make damn sure no one knows you're packing heat. Avoid the police.

 

[GLOOB]

If he's from NC he was in the wrong for not telling the cop he was carrying - period.

So why didn't he arrest me? Are you suggesting this:

Cop from 20 feet away: "The front door is locked. You might have to use the side door."

"Thank you officer. I'm carrying a concealed weapon."

If so, what happens after that? Does he ask me to stand there while he runs my ID? He's all alone with no backup. I'm just wondering what happens if I say in passing "Hi, I'm carrying a concealed weapon." Honestly, that just feels so mall-ninjaey to me. Like he should care if I'm a CCW until the point he has official business to discuss with me. And now that I've opened that can of worms, now we both have to stop what we're doing so he can run a check? Just for crossing paths? To make things more interesting, let's say there are a lot of other people around. Or maybe you're with other people who don't know you carry? Opinions?

Remember: He did NOT say that I did not declare. He did not say that I should have declared. He said that I did nothing wrong. He said the only reason he stopped me was because he saw what he thought could be a gun and was being careful.

 

[kilo729]

I don't think so, else why the thread?

People like to share stories of being made, and then receive pointers and constructive criticism from this forum.

 

[lukepriebe]

So why didn't he arrest me? Are you suggesting this:

"The front door is locked, maybe you should use the side door."

"Thank you officer. I'm carrying a concealed weapon."

I guess this was what I was wondering. I didn't think you had to declare unless you were pulled over or other official police business.

 

[AKElroy]

"Just following orders" didn't work at Nuremburg, it shouldn't work here.

An LEO observing and then acting on someone carrying a concealed weapon with a stated intent to enter a federal building is the same as baking Jews in an oven? Dude----For the record, he was not arrested, he was not harmed, and his civil rights were not violated. If a cop sees someone in my front yard with a gun, I damn well want them to ask a few questions.

 

[GLOOB]

I guess this was what I was wondering. I didn't think you had to declare unless you were pulled over or other official police business.

From what I took away from my course, there seemed to be plenty of gray area compared to black and white. For these gray areas, my instructor often remarked that "if it's truly concealed, then this won't become an issue." So I guess I'll continue to work on that part.

 

[AKElroy]

Gloob, I'm not recommending you break the law, just don't become docile ("rules are rules"), and don't be cowed into relinquishing your rights and self-respect.

I agree. However, it is foolish for us to expect LEO's to not enforce what legislators pass. The "rules are rules' referrence I used was to show that they WILL and MUST do their jobs as the law defines it, or they themselves can be prosecuted. If we have a problem with the law, and I frequently do, then the legislators are the ones that should get that wrath, not LEO's. I simply want the original post to get the fact that LEO's WILL enforce what the law states, whether or not you and I view those laws as constituitional. It simply is what it is until we can change it legislatively, and we must be smart until that happens. It is entirely possible for someone to so trap themselves with careless speech as to give LEO's no option but to act, particularly when they are in a group.

 

[AKElroy]

I guess this was what I was wondering. I didn't think you had to declare unless you were pulled over or other official police business.

I doubt the LEO felt it prudent to confront you over the weapon w/o backup. For the record, that is the right call. Look, anyone reading my posts for long knows I am passionate in defense of RKBA. I simply do not see how an LEO asking questions, with appropriate backup, regarding your carrying of a concealed weapon AND THEN LETTING YOU GO in anyway violated 2A. You were not arrested. You were not harmed. You were let go after they determined you were not a threat. This is prudent police work, folks. If LEO notices me carrying in public, I fully expect them to ask me a question or two. Lest we forget, bad guys OCCASIONALLY carry guns as well, and it is ludicrous to expect LEO's to not pay attention to potential bad actors to determine if they are a danger. The law worked properly here. Had you been arrested on a ridiculous, anti 2A gun charge, this would be a different post.

 

[GLOOB]

An LEO observing and then acting on someone carrying a concealed weapon with a stated intent to enter a federal building

Yeah. This fact was not lost on me. I feel lucky that I noticed the tail in the nick of time. I don't want to find out what happens for bringing a gun onto post office property.

AKElroy, I agree. Like I said, I don't think the cops did anything wrong, and I did not feel harrassed. The only part that made me the slightest bit uneasy was the patrol car behind me for miles after I left, after one of them emphatically stating I was ok to finish my errand, leaving the gun in the car. But that could be a red herring, because I took a common route to get to the highway, which he left on. I'm just trying to figure out what, if anything, I may have done wrong.

 

[DennyF]

I've had a PA License To Carry Firearms for many years and to the best of my knowledge, PA has no requirement "to declare" if in the presense of an LEO, especially in a "social situation" like the parking lot, with a mere exchange of pleasantries having taken place?

The desire to have backup/witnesses for an official stop might be in play, but am puzzled why the officer didn't just ask about a license to carry while in the UPS lot, if he noticed the firearm? "Yes I have a carry permit and here it is". End of drama. Most of the cops I know here would've done that without any hesitation, if they were concerned about the firearm being carried.

The situation could've been settled right then and there, without the necessity of driving about, calling for backup and making a stop.

Sure sounds like the officers had expected him to continue on to his stated destination (the Post Office) and then pinch him for violating USPS regs when he entered the lot?

PA is an open carry state and there is continuing and often heated discussion on that subject. Some feel determined to flaunt their right to carry openly, which often leads to confrontations with law enforcement. I went to all the trouble of getting the LTCF, so I could carry concealed. Confrontations with LEOs, ain't a part of my makeup. Fewer people that know I'm packing, the better, in my opinion.

 

[RoostRider]

SaxonPig <EDIT- accidentally put in Kilo729 first/EDIT> must spend a LOT of money on lawyers if every time he thinks someone may have violated his rights he takes them to court to find out..... especially since he would find out he wasted his money on the attorney since he has no idea what the law is but goes off on tangents anyways....

Cop sees guy breaking the law with a firearm (not declaring). Cop follows guy and gets backup. Cop questions guy and finds out his infraction was minor (not declaring). Cop lets him go. Cop follows him because his stated intent is against the law (going to Post Office armed). Cop breaks tail when guy doesn't commit crime suggested previously.

Where, exactly, did the cop overreact?

Just because lots of people have the CCW permit does not mean that everyone who carries should just be considered a CCW holder without any foresight whatsoever..... and when they are skirting the edge of the law, I think it is appropriate to question them...

If you don't like it.... well, change the law....

 

[AKElroy]

PA is an open carry state and there is continuing and often heated discussion on that subject. Some feel determined to flaunt their right to carry openly, which often leads to confrontations with law enforcement. I went to all the trouble of getting the LTCF, so I could carry concealed. Confrontations with LEOs, ain't a part of my makeup. Fewer people that know I'm packing, the better, in my opinion.

Nicely done for a first post---Welcome to THR!!

 

[GLOOB]

The desire to have backup/witnesses for an official stop might be in play, but am puzzled why the officer didn't just ask about a license to carry while in the UPS lot, if he noticed the firearm?

Especially considering I was alone in a wide open parking space with both hands carrying a 30 pound box, he might have done so. On the other hand, I do have cat-like quickness and could have killed him 50 different ways with my bare hands before the box even hit the ground. Lol, not. But he can't tell. Anywhoo, if I was a homicidal felon and he asked for my ID, what's to stop it from becoming a "who can draw faster" scenario? If he doesn't have anything more pressing to attend to, then I see why he'd follow me to at least run my plates and call it in. I prefer that to him drawing on me before asking for ID. Civil rights violation or no, he'd a been receiving a bill from my cleaner.

Maybe in your area of PA there's less violent crime. I live in a small city where there's (apparently) known gang violence. Not that I've ever seen anything like that, myself.

 

[raskolnikov_22]

An LEO observing and then acting on someone carrying a concealed weapon with a stated intent to enter a federal building is the same as baking Jews in an oven? Dude----

I never equated the two. You defended the cop's potential violation of 2A because he was merely "following orders." I pointed out that that defense was already found to be no excuse for a subordinate in an important trial.

 

[kilo729]

Insert witty reply here

 

[lukepriebe]

Cop sees guy breaking the law with a firearm (not declaring).

I think that's what the question is. Did he break any law? The OP has said there is no clear rule concerning declaring in a social situation, but he did declare when approached the second time as it was clearly non-social.

I tried searching for a clear statement of rules but could not find any for NC.

 

[RoostRider]

Are you thick? Honestly, did you not even read what I wrote, and decided to just attack me? Reread what I wrote, then get back to me with an apology.

Apparently I am.... lol.... I meant to put SaxonPig in there as the name...... so, yeah, this is my apology.... will go back and edit... sorry...

I think you and I are basically on the same page here.... even about me being thick... lol

This is what I was intending to comment on-

I would be filing suit for violating my civil liberties. Cops overstepped. Period.

 

[hank327]

So let me get this straight, in NC if you are legally carrying a concealed handgun while walking down the sidewalk and you happen to meet a cop walking toward you that you must stop him and declare to him that you are carrying? Just out of the blue like that? That seems most bizarre if that is the case.

As to being followed after the OP was stopped and cleared, I'm confident the cops were looking to pad their arrest record with an easy felony bust had he pulled into the Post Office parking lot. As mentioned earlier, it is best not to talk to cops. You can never be certain of their intentions but you darn well know what they are capable of doing to you. So act accordingly.

 

[conw]

My understanding of the law is you technically only have to explain your CHP to the officer if he approaches you. I err on the side of caution and explain whether I approached him or he approaches me. It's ludicrous to suggest that you have to tell any cop you *see* though.

 

[MT GUNNY]

If my state had a Provision that said I couldn't Store My Firearm in the parking lot of Post office. I would Park Across the Street then Go in and Send the Packages!

 

[RoostRider]

If my state had a Provision that said I couldn't Store My Firearm in the parking lot of Post office. I would Park Across the Street then Go in and Send the Packages!

You should check into this issue..... it's not a state issue, it is a Federal issue.... which means it doesn't matter which state you are in.... and also would seem to mean it would be a Federal Firearms Violation.... (definately don't go into the PO with a gun, no matter where you live.... by my understanding, this one is clear)

Everyone here should note that not one person has been able to cite law on this issue.... If you want to go by 'instinct', then by all means.... not me....

Even if you're right, and you can have it in the parking lot.... it only really helps if the cops and prosecutors know this as well... else you're up the river of being the 'test case' without a paddle as it were....

 

[buck460XVR]

buck460XVR the "Rambo wannabes on a gun forum" comment wasn't High Road at all.

MikeJ.............the quote was "Cop-Hatin' Rambo wannabes on a gun forum" and when I posted that statement, I figured the only ones offended by it would be those that identified with it.