Gun shows and Nazi paraphernalia

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Nazis are one of the reasons, directly and indirectly, why I have guns in the first place. You want to sell a shirt, fine. You want to act out your fantasies, I get to act out mine.
 
Tell you what, folks. Some of you can watch your language or we can shut this down.
Your choice.

I've no problem with the genuine artifacts being sold or collected.

I would even say that your right to free speech gives you the right to sell propagandistic Nazi drivel hot off the press. It just doesn't give you the right to do so at a gun show controlled by me.

But in the end, it doesn't matter. Let the would be Nazis in America run with plenty of rope. We killed them once and we can do it again. If you're a wannabe Nazi, please don't come around me whining about how your rights have been violated. Doing so not only is a contradiction of your political philosophy; but such behavior causes cognitive dissonance.
 
So you are telling me that you think it is perfectly alright for a gun show promoter to deny "Pink Pistols" (pro-gun homosexual group) and "JPFO" (pro-gun Jewish group) from setting up tables?
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Yeah, if the promoters don't want them there, it is fine that they don't let them set up. Same as Nazi booths. Honestly, looking at gunshows I think that money will let anyone in. There was an Avon-like table (perfumes, lotions, etc) at one of the more recent gunshows I attended.

I'm curious how some of you would react to one table at the last gunshow. It was a private dealer, a WWII vet. Seems he had a German Mauser and G-43 (wish I had the cash :banghead: ). he also had a bunch of German WWII stuff that he ahd brought back, a flag, knives/daggers, I believe a uniform top. Guess what? All of it Nazi marked.

Sitting down the aisle from him, was a small shop that specialized in Japanese military goods. Sure enough, plenty of stuff from WWII. They were not particularly nice. Little town in China called Nanking comes to mind.

Every so often, you'd see Russian stuff. The Russians sure weren't nice people by any means. I wouldn't be suprised if Stalin was close to Hitler in terms of number of people ordered killed. Where is the outcry over this Russian stuff?

Would there be outrage if someone were selling stuff from the Khmere Rouge? Millions killed in Cambodia, literate city folks and foreigners?

And where is the outcry against American militaria stuff from the 1800's? Trail of Tears ring a bell? Or even Japanese internment camps in WWII?

People have a bad reaction to Nazi stuff becaus it has been beaten into their heads since Kindergarten that they were bad people. Rightfully so, too. What people need to do is to grow up and realize that Germans wern't the only people killing off mass civilian populations. Collecting WWII German relics DOES NOT make one a Nazi any more than a rifle makes you a killer.

To simply say Nazi stuff is bad because they killed lots of people is a little shortsighted, unless you say stuff from anyone that has ever comitted a mass atrocity should not be collected.

To anyone pointing out that the Nazi symbol is being used by extremeist organizations, I see the American flag there too. Maybe that should be banned. Heck, how many of you will scream till you are blue in the face that someone else misusing a gun in no way should prohibit you from owning one? Yet you would say that because someone took the Nazi flag and is now using it for a cause you don't like, that no one should be able to own that stuff?

Leave the choice up to the promoters. If you don't like their choices, don't go, and let them know why you aren't going.
 
Hkmp5sd: I don't believe you open the doors to the public and then exclude certain groups because of prejudice. That amounts to discrimination.
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Yes, technically, it is discrimination, but it's not immoral discrimination or illegal discrimination. Not all discrimination is bad.

For example, a child advocacy group would be discriminating if it were to forbid NAMBLA from distributing literature at a conference. There's nothing wrong with that. A Christian group would be discriminating if it were to forbid a Satanic group from distributing literature at a revival. There's nothing wrong with that.

And again -- there's a difference between excluding patrons (which we're not urging) and excluding certain vendors.
jefnvk: Collecting WWII German relics DOES NOT make one a Nazi any more than a rifle makes you a killer.
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OK, it's a long thread and it would be unreasonable of me to expect people to read every line -- but we've made the distiction five or six times between people selling artifacts (no problem) and people selling propaganda (problem).

Look, I own some Nazi artifacts that my dad brought back as spoils of war, including a bed sheet size flag. I understand perfectly well that possession of Nazi items does not make a person a Nazi. I'm not a Nazi.

However, we are objecting to the sale of propagandist filth about how the white gods should take back America from the mud people. That crap is sold at many gun shows – and our silence on the matter is tacit approval.
To anyone pointing out that the Nazi symbol is being used by extremeist organizations, I see the American flag there too. Maybe that should be banned.
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For the fifth or sixth time, no one is talking about banning. (And BTW, I made a similar point earlier in the thread about Old Glory and the genocide perpetrated against the Indians).
Leave the choice up to the promoters. If you don't like their choices, don't go, and let them know why you aren't going.
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Indeed. That's pretty much what we're talking about. No one is talking about coercing the promoters -- unless one considers stern words and market forces to be coercion.

OTOH, I’m not sure that simply not going to the show and saying why is enough. This rises above the level of the shoddy service at the local diner. Like it or not, gun shows symbolize “the gun culture†for many non-gun people. Even if we stop going to the shows, gun shows still represent us.

Again, no one is talking about banning or other government coercion, but there is legitimate action that falls between coercion and isolated complaints by individuals.
 
This is in response to the original post.

I have seen alot of war relics and general military paraphernalia at gun shows. I haven't paid attention to what is the most common at guns shows but I'm sure if Nazi stuff sells the best then you are going to find more of it. Can't necessarily blame the vendors.
 
"Every so often, you'd see Russian stuff. The Russians sure weren't nice people by any means. I wouldn't be suprised if Stalin was close to Hitler in terms of number of people ordered killed."

Uh, it's pretty much a matter of historical record - Stalin killed SCADS more people that Adolph - this without considering things like "prisoner battalions" - whole formations of "convicts (and all you had to do to be a "convict" is be an "enemy of the state" - say the wrong thing...) that went ahead of the combat troops and dug ditches, cut wire, cleard minefields - (WITH THIER FEET - if they refused, they were shot from behind by their own side), etc - technically, those casualties are considered "death by enemy action", but Uncle Joe murdered them just the same as if he had bullets put in their brain, like his officer corps in '37. Not to mention deaths due to government-induced "crop failure" famines, deaths due to exposure and malnutrition in the Gulag, yada yada yada. Hitler is fairly well-known to have been responsible for killing about 25 million people - depending upon how you define "responsible", (and remember, Uncle Joe helped sart the shooting phase of WWII with his "non-agression pact" with Hitler and carving up Poland with hin + invading northern) Europe, Stalins death toll is estimated to be "only" 6 million (a laughable figure usually only found in the works of revisionist appologistas for the Communist cause) to a high side of well over 50 million by most arch-anti-Commies. A median figure of 30 million is easily defensible, probably close to accurate, and still puts him 5 million in the lead in terms of the butcher's bill.
 
"Stalin was worse" is an absolutely valid reason for slamming college kids for wearing Che t-shirts, not for cutting the Nazis some slack at gun shows. Sometimes I think someone selling Sarah Brady or Rosie O'Donell tshirts at a show would catch more flack than someone selling Hitler shirts.
 
It is not a free speech issue. It is a private business. We can tell the dude who runs the gun show that we don't like the wares at the show.

That is the capitalist market place. Duh.

Second, we have clearly distinguished war souvenirs from promoting Nazi ideology.

It is really very simple unless, of course, you like the Nazi ideology. That's what it is boiling down to.

You know lots of gun folks denounce the ACLU. Remember when they defended the Nazi march through Skokie (sp?). That was a free speech issue.

Nazis can go rent a hall and have a Nazi show. You can go to it.

The theoretical issue is whether the government should ban the free speech of sworn enemies of the United States and its citizens. Should the government ban their speech? Should it ban the speech of leftists? Might we shut down the Mosques in the US who preach Wahabbism?

Going down that road, the government would shut down all kinds of folks. I don't think many of us would support that unless you are so self-centered that your view of freedom is to only allow your own opinions.

But all this is different from expressing displeasure in a commercial setting over a product being sold and and an ideology that is antithetical to everything American and decent being pushed.



T
 
the other shoe is that if no one buys the stuff the dealers of nazi gear won't show up. There must be market demand of these items or there would not be at the shows. Some gunshows state guns and accesories only, if thats the way they want to run there show o.k. by me.

The real question is who is buying axis memorabilia and why?
 
cuchulainn this post started I think about the amount of dealers selling nazi items....not about a table full of idiots selling crap. There is a difference. How in the world am I trying to push my values off on any one else...????????????
I dont believe a live and let live attitude is inflicting anything on anybody.....by trying to tell some one what they can and cant sell IS inflicting your values on others. If Im somewhere and see something I dont like I dont go back.......pretty damn simple. I dont bitch about it and cry and whine that Im offended.
 
cuchulainn this post started I think about the amount of dealers selling nazi items....not about a table full of idiots selling crap.
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Yes, but the conversation has evolved over seven pages to where we're now talking about the people selling Nazi propaganda. Long ago, we made a distiction between people selling artifacts and people selling racist propaganda.
How in the world am I trying to push my values off on any one else.
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Well, I was teasing you more than anything. You aren't pushing your values on us any more than we are pushing them onto you. But you keep telling us to behave a certain way -- a way that reflects your values. The difference is that we're not getting offended by your doing that, while you keep complaining about it. It's amusing.
by trying to tell some one what they can and cant sell IS inflicting your values on others.
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What are you talking about? We don't have the power to do that. However, we do have the power to convince them. Convincing is not inflicting
I dont b**** about it and cry and whine that Im offended.
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OK, how many times do we have to explain that it's not about us being offended, but about the political reality that the sale of Nazi propaganda at gun shows reflects poorly on the gun community, and is thus a tool that the antis can (and do!) use to pull fence sitters away from our side and to their side?

It's not about our feelings. Our feelings don't matter. It's about winning the political war, and you don't win political wars by letting your enemies point out that you mix with Nazis.
 
Where I was raised, people who talk about "mud people" usually end up being rammed into it by a bunch of nazi haters. ;)
 
My above post was geared specifically towards people who say any Nazi relic should be pohibited from being owned/sold/watever, and more generally to anyone that says that Nazi stuff should not be owned because they comitted mass atrocities.

I am completely against the new stuff, but I realize that both the seller and the show promoter agree that it is OK for that stuff to be sold. I simply choose to walk by it. If enough of the stuff shows up, and it is cutting into guns and gun stuff, I simply won't go.

rich - I was thinking along those lines. Just couldn't remember specific numbers. Yet, not too many people will complain about Russian communist memoribilia being sold. Why? I think it is simply because everywhere the turn around, there aren't people telling them that the Russian communists were bad people. I see many people walking around with red stars. Most of them can't grasp the concept that communists have killed FAR MORE people than Hitler ever did. Communists, after all, are for the people.
 
I just jumped in at the end of the thread and don't care to read through it, but I've seen plenty of swastikas in Jewish museums. I breathe fire when I see swastikas, but the owner of them are typically not anti-semetic and my feelings aren't directed at them (unless they prove otherwise). Now a "Kerry" bumper sticker is something else. The owner of those always piss me off.
 
No sweat, jefnvk - Communism has killed over 100 million people, and caused untold misery for at least 20 times that...how ANYBODY can continue to advocate any kind of collectivist/socialist/liberal agenda in the face of the death toll is beyond me...in my most meglomaniacal daydreams, my desire for power is still not strong enough to uncork such a genie - especially when you consider how few of the butchers die peacefully in their bed. No "Old Tyrant's Home" - they usually get back what they dealt out. One can admire the skill and loyalty of men at arms while deploring the actions of the regime they served.
 
I'm going to steer clear of the Nazi debate, but I've GOT to answer this one:

The Civil War is over, or so it would appear to me. So why people want to keep it up is absolutely fragglin ridiculous when we have real enemies to worry about. Whether or not it was a legitimate war, a legal or illegal war, fought to free the slaves or not - it really is over. One side lost badly, the other side won well. So what IT IS OVER!
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You truly have no knowledge of history whatsoever if you think the South got walloped by the North. It's kind of like saying we won in Vietnam.

Considering the North lost about two soliders for every one the South, I wouldn't exactly call it a walloping.

Given equal conditions (IOW, not having all of your supplies cut off from you due to geographical biases of industry), the South would have beaten the North so bad you'd be singing "Dixie" at football games instead of the National Anthem".

Southerners take pride in the Confederacy because it was a group of civilians taking up arms to defend their homeland from a tyrannous invader who seeked to usurp their rights. The confederates defended their homeland bravely and fought well until they simply ran out of supplies. Without that, they had no way of fighting off the numerically superior forces.

See, we give great credit and hold reverance for those who did that the first time around (Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, etc.), but we make villians of those who did it a second time (Davis, Lee, Jackson, etc.)

What makes me laugh so much about the propaganda being spread in the North about the war was that it was about "freeing the slaves'. I want to know who HONESTLY believes that the US Government truly was interested in freeing slaves, whom they viewed in their own constitution as inferior people, much like livestock.

If they were interested in freeing slaves, they would have done something about their rights oh, say, 100 years earlier than they did. But they weren't. They wanted to get rid of slavery in the south for economic reasons ONLY.

Once again, you could call the Civil War "Revolutionary War II", because all the same reasons and players are there, the outcome is only different.

I will make one comment though about the Hitler/Nazi regime thing: I find it hard to believe the numbers that are paraded about how many Jews were killed during the war. I've heard everying from 1 million all the way to 7 million. The numbers don't make Hitler any less of a madman, but why artificially inflate the numbers to make him any worse than he already was? It's not even physically possible for 7 million jews to be killed, the math just doesn't even add up.

3200 people per DAY, figuring seven million people being killed over a six year period, 7 days a week. I don't care how you pack them, or bury them, you cannot dispose of 3200 bodies per day, period. It's impossible.

I'm sure in some history book ten years from now the numbers will be upwards of 15 million or more. It's a shame that we live in a system where the truth is always going to play second fiddle to the winner's report of what the war was REALLY about, but that's how it's going to be.

Just remember, Thomas Jefferson was a national hero and a slave owner.

Robert E. Lee did not own slaves and felt that every man was created equal, but he was a villanous racist.
 
You truly have no knowledge of history whatsoever if you think the South got walloped by the North.
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Did I say which side won? You have no idea of the point I was making, or so it seems. You, in order to keep alive the Civil War ranting, take my point out of context AND you assume I meant the North defeated the South badly. That was not my point at all, regardless of which side I believe may have won. (Since that was not the point I will not give my idea on which side was the ultimate winner. I can only imagine though that you base your assumption about my belief as to who won upon the fact that my info shows I am from NY. Hmmm, is that the Civil War raging on yet inside of you? I wonder.)

The whole point I was trying to make, and anyone who was not trying to keep the Civil War alive may have realized this, is that the U.S. Civil War IS REALLY FACTUALLY OVER and, we now have real enemies to fight. Therefore, why keep up an ongoing sort of Civil War with one another when, there are those real enemies to fight! I think you only have proven my point exactly when I said it was "...absolutely fragglin ridiculous..." in reference to keeping that long over war alive.

Best regards,
Glenn B
 
3200 people per DAY, figuring seven million people being killed over a six year period, 7 days a week. I don't care how you pack them, or bury them, you cannot dispose of 3200 bodies per day, period. It's impossible.

I realize this is probably pointless, but by your logic, the First World War couldn't have happened:

http://killeenroos.com/5/WW1Bat.htm
 
It's not even physically possible for 7 million jews to be killed, the math just doesn't even add up.

3200 people per DAY, figuring seven million people being killed over a six year period, 7 days a week. I don't care how you pack them, or bury them, you cannot dispose of 3200 bodies per day, period. It's impossible.
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You were doing well up until this point. The crematoria at Auschwitz was averaging 10,000 corpses per day by 1942 and reached a one-day record in August, 1945 of 24,000. Even that was not enough and they resorted to digging large pits to make up the difference.

Add to that the fact there were 6 camps that did nothing but execute prisoners, the common belief of 6,000,000 Jews can easily be achieved.
 
Honestly Mr. Moderator, I think that's a good idea. Not only has Mr. coohoolian's original point been wilfully missed over and over, but now we have someone spouting this stuff in the thread. You can just imagine the responses he'll get..
 
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